Whats wrong with a convert?!?!?!

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    #622248

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Agreed! When I was dating, a shidduch was suggested of a girl whose mother was a geyores. I told my parents that they shouldn’t say no because of it – we should look into her like any other girl. We just researched who was involved with the actual process to make sure the Rabbonim were competent, and that was it.

    #622249

    angelmarie
    Participant

    I feel for what you and your friend are going thru, I am also a convert although i really don’t take any negative things people say to me to heart, especially from my boss who likes to make comments about my conversion, they shouldn’t be speaking negatively like that anyway. I don’t worry how “jewish” people think I am. I have my own relationship with G-D, I read the torah, I study, I pray, give to charity, and try to be a good person. I trust in Hashem that I will find a husband when I am ready too, but I don’t believe I am yet, I am still learning and still young. Although I have to say that I have been told by a couple men that as long as a woman observed all the laws that they would have no problem with the fact that she is a convert. I wish you the best!

    #622250

    feivel
    Participant

    there is a Mitzvah from the Torah to love a Ger.

    Gerim should be held in very high esteem.

    with my own children, the fact that someone was a Ger, was not critical, but it WAS a factor to be considered. and anyone seeking a Shidduch has a right to consider this factor, and to even make it an instant deal breaker. im sorry but they have that right.

    there is a certain element of risk. i know one case, a Ger, a friend of mine, after 5 years of marriage, and two children, gave up his family and Yiddishkeit. now of course this can and has happened with non-gayrim as well. nevertheless it IS a risk factor.

    im sorry (truly) that you find this “sickening”, but they have their side of the story as well.

    your friend if she asks a Talmid Chuchum (not just a “rabbi”) will learn that her finding a shidduch is completely in the hands of Hashem. what she needs to do is daven FERVENTLY, with tears if possible, both during Shmoneh Esrei and any time she feels particularly pained by being single.

    and of course she has to keep trying. she should trust in Hashem, and be confident if possible. she should also daven for other single women to find their Bashert. and you should fervently daven for her.

    #622251

    feivel
    Participant

    angelmarie

    “I trust in Hashem that I will find a husband when I am ready”

    you will

    #622252

    feivel.

    it appears from his letter that its a HE not a SHE

    #622253

    Bowzer
    Participant

    I am really sorry that you are having this very unpleasant experience, perhaps you might find comfort in megilas Rus, she had a very hard time with shidduchim (and everything else too!) but through her percverience, she was zoche to become the am hamalchus and the mother of mashiach. One of the amazing things about Rus is that she had all the reasons to be “turned off” from Judaism, but she knwew what emes was and clung to Hashem and the Torah.

    May Hashem help you find the right mate, bmehara and bezrat Hashem you will be zoche to build a bayis Neeman b’Yisrael.

    #622254

    willi
    Member

    maybe try finding someone from the BT world. They’re often more open to the idea.

    #622255

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Geirim, children of geirim, and the frum from birth Jews who marry them, are special people. But not everyone is made of the stuff that can handle what is in store for them.

    So guys, are you prepared to join the likes of Moshe Rabeinu; Yehoshua; Unkolus; or even the previous leader of Neturei Karta, who all married wonderful women who converted.

    There will always be the stigma of “goy” attached to your spouse and there is also the halachic obligation to give “honor” to the goyishe machutanim.

    There will be the socializing with the “goyishe” cousins; brothers-in-law; sisters-in-law; aunts and uncles.

    There will be “sholom bais” issues regarding visiting.

    And your children will also have “shidduch” issues.

    But it takes a special person and a special love.

    I know.

    #622256

    Joseph
    Participant

    cherrybim –

    A Ger breaks off his previous relationship with his old family. He is no longer related to them. His ex-parents are no longer his parents. There can be no socializing with them. This is halacha.

    #622257

    The Big One
    Participant

    cherry, I think that a Ger breaks all his relationships with his pre-Geirus family including his parents; brothers-in-law; sisters-in-law; aunts and uncles. They are no longer considered his parents; brothers-in-law; sisters-in-law; aunts and uncles. And a Jew cannot socialize with a Goy.

    #622258

    Bowzer: just so you know I have been happily married for over 2 years now. I did not even SEE this as a issue until I started working setting up shudduch’s

    If you will look I was mainly talking about OLDER people… (ie divorced, widowed, bt) in their 40-50’s. I don’t see why a 50-year old man would not even consider a 45 year-old woman who has been converted for the past 20 years! yet he would date a bt..

    #622259

    Control the Gedolim? FYI am female

    #622260

    Joseph

    A Ger breaks off his previous relationship with his old family. He is no longer related to them. His ex-parents are no longer his parents. There can be no socializing with them. This is halacha.

    this is not the ruling I got from my rav or the many rabummim that were at my wedding (attended by my parents and 1 sibling)

    I still call my parents daily… my mom just bought my husband a shas… we have our own set of post and pans at her house and kashur her kitchen we we go down to visit. My parents supported us for the first 6 months of marriage just like you would expect from a frum family…

    #622261

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I wish the Josephs and the Big Ones of this world would stop issuing piskei halacha as if there was no other view besides their own. We are friends with a couple and the wife’s family was at the wedding ( with the permission and ok of the rav who married them). And what what is wrong with going to lunch with a goy?

    #622262

    BaalSechel
    Participant

    People generally don’t date to do Chesed, for that there are many other outlets. a marriage partner should be the person you feel most connected to, and can therefore build the most productive relationship that you can. Many people feel that the life experiences of a ger don’t mirror their own, and they won’t be able to have that same relationship. To think that this implies some put- down to the enormous respect that such people toward geirim is simply inaccurate.

    That being said, it is entirely possible that a ger with a uniquely refined character could have more in common with a fine person than someone of similar backgruond but dissimilar ideals.

    Yishai the father of Dovid, possibely the greatest Miyuchas of his time, married off his daughter to a ger who displayed a unique penchant for following truth.

    Ps Willie is right that you may find a BT more receptive to the idea (they also have more similar backgrounds, being that they both discovered the truth by dint of their searching) Also, try the YU community, many of them are fine people, often without misgivings about dateing a ger.

    #622263

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes, we should leave it to “lesschumras” so he can matir whatever anyone doesn’t like.

    #622265

    Bogen
    Participant

    Its befersh. Whats the argument? A converts relationship to his biological parents is the same as his relationship to his non-Jewish next door neighbor.

    He is considered to have been born at the time he became a Ger. And his previous life is disregarded. He doesn’t site shiva for his bio parents death.

    #622266

    illini07
    Member

    Wow, I didn’t realize we weren’t allowed to socialize with goyim. Better move to KJ quickly!

    I feel for the author. As many have said, gerim are special, commendable individuals, who often have more heartfelt emunah than those brought up in the frumest of communities. In my mind, it would be an honor to marry a convert.

    #622268

    nameless
    Member

    It says ‘Vohavto is HaGer’ 6 times!

    Its also a fact that for 10 generation, ITS FORBIDDEN TO remind someone that he was once a Gentile.

    On the other hand, apparantly when one decides to convert, its an obligation to PURSUADE HIM NOT TO. Can someone please elaborate on the contradictions?

    #622269

    Baalsechel

    It is true that people generally don’t date to do Chesed.

    I think NASI wants to change that

    #622270

    cherrybim
    Participant

    To Joseph and Big One: Don’t show your ignorance to the multitudes of YWN’s.

    Before mouthing off, if you have a Rav who is in the know, speak to him.

    Giving honor to in-laws who are not Jewish is a halacha.

    By the way, do you skip Parshas Yisro every year, or what?

    The current Bobover Rebbe has a talmud who is a ger tzedek. The talmud was a ben bais of the Rebbe and the Rebbe made a wedding for the talmud in the Bobov Bais Hamedresh.

    Gantz Bobov came to the wedding, including the goyeshe family of the talmud. On the video you see the Rebbe and chasidim giving kavode to these goyim.

    #622271

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Unlike you, I don’t issue psak halachas. A well-respected and chashuva rav in this case did.

    #622272

    Think BIG
    Member

    Joseph, Bogen

    No one is refuting that the ger is born anew and has no biological relationship to his parents. But that’s very different than saying “there can be no socializing with them, that’s the halacha.”

    True, a convert has the same relationship with his previous parents as with his next-door non-jewish neighbor, but he can certainly be on great terms with his neighbor! the big one: “a jew cannot socialize with a goy”? That statement was bound to be taken out of context. A Jew is not supposed to get into a personal relationship with a goy, and in general we are meant to keep ourselves separate from the goyim. But in the case of a convert, each ger should take counsel from their own Moreh Derech in how to treat the people that brought him into the world. If they supported their child in his quest for truth (which sometimes happens) and the minute the child toivels in the mikveh, he cut these kind gentiles out of his life, that can cause a major chillul Hashem, which is also Assur.

    I know of a giyoress who had very supportive parents throughout her journey into yiddishkeit. At her chasunah, (she married a BT) her (ex)father not only paid for the wedding, but spoke and said that he considers it a supreme honor that a child of his joined the chosen peeople.

    The couple still visits them and such, though it can be challenging to raise children in a family where “Grandpa” is a goy.

    In many cases the family disowns the child for converting (or they think he went crazy and and the conflict erodes the relationship) When that happens, it may be easier in a way because then there are no goyish “relatives” to deal with. Otherwise, I agree with cherrybim completely.

    #622273

    Think BIG
    Member

    illinio7

    No one is refuting that geirim are special people and it is a true honor to be married to one. Baalei Teshuvah too, for that matter, “bemakom shabaalei teshuvah omdim…”

    All that’s being said is that it can be very impractical to make a shidduch between a ger and a FFB, not that there’s anything wrong with them c”v!

    #622274

    Think BIG
    Member

    Nameless, there is no contrdiction at all! Before he converts, you dissuade him because you want to make sure he is really serious, and doing it for the right reasons, even though he knows what hardships it may bring him. But once he overcomes that hurdle, we accept him with open arms, love and welcome him and try not to embarrass him for his past. he is a full-fledged jew.

    #622275

    ujm
    Participant

    cherry,

    Sorry if SHULCHAN ORACH offends you. But that is plain black and white Jewish law. Now sometimes a Rav may for extenuating circumstances make an EXCEPTION. But the rule is a Gers former-life family no longer has shaichos to the Ger except as any other Goy – mere acquanintances.

    #622276

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Joseph, if a ger was not allowed to socialize with his/her parents afterwards because of it, it would cause a HUGE chillul Hashem.

    #622278

    cherrybim
    Participant

    TO UJM and the other “a’bee g’ret” peanut brains: If only you knew what you were talking about. The directives of Rabbonim and Poskim are otherwise.

    #622279

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    For all the kannaim here, there is a tshuva of Reb Moshe to a Rabbi Yalow in Syracuse, regarding a giyores whose mother was ill, and wanted to see her children and grandchildren. After some shakla vtarya on this Rov’s suggested heter, Reb Moshe says there is another much more basic reason to be matir. People will say that dinei torah are not b’yosher. How could it be that somebody who converted to a higher kedusha ends up giving her mother less kovod than when she was non-Jewish? So from menschlachkeit considerations, Reb Moshe says she should visit her mother.

    (The reason in general why too much visiting is discouraged, is so that the giyores should be able to build her new life, and not fall back into her old patterns, and end up abandoning her new-found religion. However, that does not mean one cuts off her family, and shows disrespect or cruelty.)

    #622280

    angelmarie
    Participant

    feivel-

    thank you!

    #622281

    The Big One
    Participant

    A Ger can communicate with his birth-parents to the extent necessary to avoid a making a situation. But under ideal circumstances he should aim to limit his contact with them because, amongst other reasons, to prevent them from influencing him and his family with their goyish ways.

    #622282

    Joseph
    Participant

    A convert no longer is a child of his biological parents.

    It is inappropriate for a Jew to be close to a non-Jew. That is the reason a Jew can’t drink wine a non-Jew

    #622283

    Zalman
    Participant

    Sometimes a Rabbi will allow a convert to continue a reduced relationship with his blood family in order to make a kiddush hashem (depending on the circumstances.)

    #622284

    cherrybim
    Participant

    To: The Big One and Joseph –

    Wow, we have people here who are m’chulik with g’dolei and poskei hador. I guess the g’dolim just weren’t aware of The Big One and Joseph’s p’sak din or they never would have advised otherwise.

    And I guess we should inform all the Rav Hamachshir on wine that they should not bother with M’vushel since Joseph paskins that a Jew can’t drink wine with a non-Jew.

    And it’s too bad that Moshe Rabeinu wasn’t aware of The Big One’s amaratzus or he would have had nothing to do with his father-in-law Yisro.

    It seems that the peanut brains ignore our past traditions, ignore the decisions of poskim, and make up their own Torah.

    #622285

    Chuck Schwab
    Participant

    Everyone who disagrees with Pashuteh is pashut a kannoi apparently according to his thinking.

    It really tickles me how many of the modern orthodox call any Chareidi hashkofos as kannoi.

    #622286

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Joseph, Just FYI, the gemara in Avodah Zara tells us the story of Rebbe Yehudah Hanasi who was best friends with the Roman ruler Anthony (Antoninus). They were so close that when Anthony died, Rebbe was crying and said nisparda hachavila (the bundle has been separated.) I believe other tannaim or amoraim were mentioned there with similar situations.

    We should not drink with them, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be friends with them.

    #622287

    BaalSechel
    Participant

    In response to nameless : We only persuade someone not to convert in order to determine that they are making a sincere, well considered choice. Once that determination has been made, we welcome them with open arms.

    #622288

    favish
    Member

    to illini07 page one you didnt realize “we’re not allowed to socialize with..” tell us , and what is the whole issur of “pitom and v’yaynom” for..also thepasuk v’korah l’choh v’achalta mizifcho…”also it will bring to “..gemmorah and dont you DARE say its only because of chasah oivad avodah zarah, chasnos”

    #622289

    favish
    Member

    by the way on the subject of geirim..the shloh hakaodes says pshat “ger shenisgayer kekatan s’hnold”..that when one converts ‘maknim bo min hshomayin nefash chadosho MITACHAS KISAY HAKOVOD’ vayikara 19 (page 141a 1st column, in the 5 volume print){cantor, rah-bbi or berlin etc its not for you ,you dont beliieve in these myths}

    #622290

    favish
    Member

    the ‘big one’ said a big one and that whats its all about, but like all say depends on the circanstaanses..how they accepted his conversion..in the haggadah of the holy kehilos yackov about a ger,very temimesdik,learned in kollel all day and received stipend for support from his biological father …there was another shileh that arose but this was no problem (hagadas hakehilos yackov page 313 ,middle of page)

    #622291

    Its only because of chasah oivad avodah zarah, chasnos

    #622292

    Think BIG
    Member

    Poshut:

    “We should not drink with them, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be friends with them. “

    The reason chazal instituted that we shouldn’t drink with them is in ORDER THAT WE DON’T BECOME FRIENDS WITH THEM. There are many other stringencies by chazal that stress the importance of keeping ourselves separate from the goyim.

    Rebbe had a relationship with Antoninus, because these two giants were the fulfillment of a nevua made thousands of years earlier (when rivka was pregnant with the twins). To infer from that relationship that it’s okay to have social relationships with goyim is to ignore everything else the gemara and halacha has to say on the subject.

    #622293

    lesschumras
    Participant

    “Everyone who disagrees with Pashuteh is pashut a kannoi apparently according to his thinking.

    It really tickles me how many of the modern orthodox call any Chareidi hashkofos as kannoi”

    Apparently you’ve not read any of the postings of Joseph, jent1150 and ujm.

    #622294

    favish
    Member

    to feif un page 1..you say “when you were dating…a shiiduch was suggested…” now, we c’v dont want to insinuate anything negetive about holy geyrim (see what mentionined from “alshich hakadosh” in one post here about geyrim,..but your case is different as you mentioned a prat about yourselve way back in feb., so..

    #622298

    Will Hill
    Participant

    lesschumras, their kanuas is on the ball and the right medicine.

    #622299

    CherryBum

    I will differ with Rav Leff on this issue. (Agav, I was once at a chasunah over 20 years ago between a giyores and a BT, with Rav Leff presiding. It was interesting, you could tell who her family was. They were the ones wearing kippot out of respect.)

    Nachzor linyananee. If a giyores is assur to a kohain because she comes from the akum she’shtufim bizima, how can Rav Leff be matir yichud with her goyisheh father? In fact yichud with a Goy is even worse than with a Preetzusdika Yid. The Yid we trust if his wife is with him. The Goy we do not trust even if his wife is with him. For modern orthodox that don’t understand what I’m talking about, this is found among the simanim in shulchan oruch that you feel are not applicable today. Ask your “Shomer” friends to explain it to you. But than again I must be a kanoiee because I hold from shulchan oruch.

    BTW I’m looking for a black giyores in her 30s for a friend, a black Ger, whose a really nice guy. NY area. (An Islander) Any ideas? YWN has my email. I hope he wouldn’t mind forwarding such info.

    #622300

    favish
    Member

    to those who yell ‘kanuous'(because the truth hurts) what this about kanous.as if its some kind of plague, YES WE ARE KANOIM AND PROUD OF IT!!!!!!,hey.irhakodesh, we can also insert exclamation points, even more than one (we say its toichach,really dont know the difference)..and pshute yid , dont worry about what the holy geon hageonim the chazon ish said about kanuous…dont pick and choose. you dont even go on the derech of the chazon ish…like those who are oiver on kol hatorah kilo (not you) and when its pointed out to them they cry,’ahavas yisroel,loshon hora, sinas chinom etc,’..the eibishter didnt put those mitzvos for your convieniance so when it suits you, to pull it out of your hat and wave and say ‘it let me do my thing (judaism that you feel comfortable with) and we should observe ‘loshon horah etc..’besides we pointed out many times where and why these mitzvos are not shayech to these cases…..this post belong to following link….. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/out-of-the-mailbag-do-as-i-do/page/3#postform

    #622301

    cherrybim
    Participant

    matzahlocaol101:

    Since you differ with Rav Zev Leff on this issue, I suppose you also differ with all the other poskim and g’dolim regarding this issue. That’s a pretty harsh interpretation on your part.

    Regarding your black Ger: Why limit him to a black geyores? Is that fair?

    What’s wrong with a white frum from birth Jewess or any other frum Jewess? I’ve seen a number of such marriages with wonderful results. For that matter, I’ve seen successful marriages between a Chinese ger and a frum from birth white Jewess; a Navaho Indian geyores and a frum from birth white Yid and a black geyores and a frum from birth white Yid.

    Are your preconceptions showing?

    #622302

    Zalman
    Participant

    cherrybim,

    Most poiskim hold that a Ger cannot have yichud with their ex-parent. (In fact I don’t know if ANY hold otherwise.)

    As Yidden we are obligated to keep a great distance between ourselves and the goyim. This applies no less to a Ger.

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