When a child eats traif.

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  • #603879
    MS_DC
    Member

    We were at a party at my brother’s house today. He is not observant but he is very respectful (he has a kosher grill for us, etc.). My seven year old daughter ate a traif hamburger! Certainly, she knows better.

    How do other parents deal with this?

    #881147
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    If she really knows better then treat her the way you’d treat her if she’d done anything she wasn’t supposed to do. But does she really know better?

    #881148
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    1. No, she doesn’t know better. You took her somewhere, and you were eating, so she ate.

    2. Don’t you know better than to take her somewhere where there is kosher and non-kosher food? You should only go there if they will be serving only kosher food.

    #881149
    Csar
    Member

    This is why one shouldn’t go to treif eating relatives (or anyone.) And especially with children.

    #881150
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Next time ask your relatives to serve only kosher food to avoid the mistake. My father’s non-Jewish friends used to do that for us.

    #881151
    Burnt Steak
    Participant

    As ItcheSrulik said you should use kosher food. Whenever I visit my irreligious relatives, we either bring deli or lox and bagels for everybody.

    If it will strain relationships with them then you should try to set up the meeting so that the temptation will not arise. You could suggest to meet at a park and picnic or try some vegetation thing. Or you could come just for dessert (if big family get together that many relatives will be present) and stay for a couple of hours.

    If all else fails just tell you child that All the food is poisoned.(just kidding in case you couldnt tell)

    #881152
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Just a word of caution: When things like this happen it’s not uncommon for the parent to feel guilty, and if you’re not vigilant you might subconsciously project that guilt onto your kid. I’m sure you’re a good parent, just be careful about that. You don’t want to hurt your kid.

    #881153
    far east
    Member

    pba and csar- sometimes its not so simple to just “not go” to some places…especially when its a close relative like your brother. And if your not in MS_DC’s situation you cant judge him like that.

    That being said, she must have not known better or she wouldnt have eaten the hamburger. I wouldnt beat myself up if it was my kid. However next time the situation arises, be ultra careful and help your daughter understand why its important that she eats different food then her cousins.

    #881154
    oomis
    Participant

    Your kid made a mistake. And I think you realize you did, too, because it really is a VERY bad idea to eat by someone who is serving both kosher and non-kosher food, though I am sure he was very well-intentioned to get a kosher grill for you. Whenever we visit my husband’s family, I always bring the main food. They buy fresh paper goods and plastic ware, which we open up, and any OU or other acceptable Hashgocha items (like potato chips, soda, etc.), and fresh fruit and vegetables, which we cut up with plastic knives.

    #881155
    pcoz
    Member

    The worst thing is when people try to cater for you and then you get there and you figure out that you don’t eat from the standard of kashrus they have organised – that can get veery sticky

    #881156
    Health
    Participant

    far east -“pba and csar- sometimes its not so simple to just “not go” to some places…especially when its a close relative like your brother. And if your not in MS_DC’s situation you cant judge him like that.

    That being said, she must have not known better or she wouldnt have eaten the hamburger. I wouldnt beat myself up if it was my kid. However next time the situation arises, be ultra careful and help your daughter understand why its important that she eats different food then her cousins.”

    I totally agree with PBA. If non-kosher food is being served and it’s not a formal setting where e/o gets their own portion, then all the food has to be kosher. The child did nothing wrong. A 7- y.o. can’t be held responsible for eating Treif when it’s right in front of them. So either you want to be Frum or you want to be part of your Freye family. If they want a relationship they have to accommodate you in non-formal settings. Blaming the kid for your failure isn’t going to hold water in Shomayim.

    #881157
    takahmamash
    Participant

    If non-kosher food is being served and it’s not a formal setting where e/o gets their own portion, then all the food has to be kosher.

    Why? It’s up to the parents to supervise the kid and watch what the kid eats. It’s certainly not the fault of a 7 year old! The situation in the OP could have been prevented it the parents had been paying attention. We’ve gone to many events that included food with family members who are not frum, and we’ve never had this problem.

    So either you want to be Frum or you want to be part of your Freye family.

    You make it sound like they MUST make a choice between one or the other. They don’t.

    #881158
    far east
    Member

    Health- I can’t believ those words are coming out of a frum jews mouth. ” either you want to be frum or you want to be part of your freye family”…. “if they want a relationship they have to accomadate you”

    Have you no sensitivity towards others? What happened to loving your fellow Jew, frum or not frum, yarmulka or no yarmulka… Let alone your own biological brother! Do you think your first class and Jews who aren’t yet shower Mitzvos are second? Wouldnt you want a relationship with your brother regardless of his personel lifestyle?

    #881160
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Id suggest this is not the forum to discuss or ask this. I think you are much better off asking a Rav who understands these situtations better rather than take advice from people in an anonyous internet blog who dont understand the situtation you are in

    #881161
    shlishi
    Member

    Frum Yidden need to keep a distance from non frum (even family) and goyim.

    #881162
    oomis
    Participant

    Shlishi, that is not what family does. Non-frum family needs to see that their frum family members are open and welcoming. How do you think baalei teshuvah are exposed to frumkeit? Otherwise, all you are doing is reinforcing their idea that frum Jews think we are all too good for everyone else.

    The frum family members have to maintain warm and open lines of communication with their loved ones who are not frum, while at the same time being extra vigilant over their own actions while in their company. It’s never a bad thing to make a kiddush Hashem, especially if one believes that the true K”H is in front of other Jews.

    #881163
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Shlishi – “Frum Yidden need to keep a distance from non frum (even family) and goyim.”

    And so, the heilige godol has paskened that Rav Noach Weinberg, zt’l and all of his followers; The Lubavitcher Rebbe, zt’l and all his followers; R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt’l, and all his followers; R’ Aryeh Levin, zt’l and all who were inspired by him, and many more gedolim, and every single frum Jew involved in kiruv, and every single Baal Tshuva who has not cut off his or her family is transgressing by not keeping “a distance”. Feh.

    As for the goyim – Dovid Hamelech and Shlomo Hamelech not only used non Jews in their armies (as did pretty much every king of Yehuda, both those who were considered holy (Asa, Yehoshaphat, CHizkiyahu, etc.) and those who were not. And Shlomo Hamelech even brought non Jews from Chiram Hamelech in Tzor to help build the Beis Hamikdosh. Numerous Rishonim worked closely with and for Non Jewish princes and kings in pre-reconquista Spain.

    DO Frum Jews need to maintain their standards of observance wherever they go, YES! even at a BBQ with family, and it is 100% the parent’s responsibility to ensure that. If they can’t or won’t take that responsibility, they shouldn’t go. But they can, and they should. Do frum Jews need to maintain their standards of observance when they go out into the workforce, and encounter non-Jews? YES! and do you know what? when it comes to things like kosher food for meetings or trade shows, my experience has been that non-Jews have been very respectful and incredibly accommodating.

    Of course, one would actually have to be out in the workplace earning a living to discover that.

    Frum yidden need to understand that HKBH put them here to have a hashpo’oh on other Jews, and on the whole world, not to hide themselves away, squeeze their eyes shut, mumbling “go away, go away, go away!”

    #881164
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Hmm…

    I wonder how this discussion would go if the subject were traife media instead of traife food.

    #881165
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Frum Yidden need to keep a distance from non frum (even family) and goyim.

    Then how would you expect the non-frum family to have any idea how welcoming frum Jews can be?

    What kind of shtus are you making up here?

    #881166
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    <em > I wonder how this discussion would go if the subject were traife media instead of traife food.

    Whenever I see some frum kids go to relatives who have a TV in the house, The TV is the first thing that goes on. They go to the TV and stay there until they leave to go home

    #881167
    MorahRach
    Member

    I know so many people who became frum a little later in life. Are they supposed to say ” ok mom and dad thanks for all you have done for me but I am cutting ties with you, bye!” ofcourse not! I have family that isn’t religious in the least but they have a kosher grill for when we come, endless new paper plates cups flatware. When we come they get us cakes and pies from acceptable bakeries. But when we go to functions with 50 other people who too are not religious or even Jewish, our hosts are expected to make the entire event kosher? For sure not. They are in my opinion going above and beyond by doing what I just stayed, especially because it is not something they believe is necessary, but out of respect they do what needs to be done to ensure our attendance. All you need to do is supervise your child, and explain to a 7 year old, there are a lot of things here we can eat and a lot we cant, so come to mommy and she will make you a plate and show you the nosh you can eat!

    #881168
    oomis
    Participant

    Hmm…

    I wonder how this discussion would go if the subject were traife media instead of traife food. “

    Meaning…?

    #881169
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    The family that matters should be the one we want our child to marry into later on. When shidduch season begins, being in touch with non-frum relatives counts badly against the prospective chosson or kallah, for exactly the reason that was proven here. In a nutshell, if they’re not frum, they’re not family.

    #881170
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    And here comes the shidduch blackmail again. I was wondering when that would pop up.

    #881171
    MorahRach
    Member

    Loyal Jew. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I can’t get on board with thinking like that. I personally wouldn’t want a shidduch for my child that is going to high horse themselves so much that they can’t accept someone who has family members that are not up to they standards of religious. My mother wears pants, and does not cover her hair. She keeps shabbos, kosher, literally has the best midos of anyone I know. She is the first person to jump to help someone, to pick someone up from the airport, to change a strangers flat tire( yea my mom is superwoman). I am very proud to have her as my mom, never once have I been ashamed of the fact that she and my dad are very modern. One shidduch that was redt to me,many other thigs were wrong about the match but the boys mother actually said to me infront of his sisters, ” we’ll if this goes anywhere it is going to be humiliating at the wedding if your mothers hair is not covered”. BH it didn’t end up going far, but who says that?!!! My modern mother would never have the chutzpah.

    #881172
    oomis
    Participant

    The family that matters should be the one we want our child to marry into later on. When shidduch season begins, being in touch with non-frum relatives counts badly against the prospective chosson or kallah, for exactly the reason that was proven here. In a nutshell, if they’re not frum, they’re not family. “

    That is really sad. I feel sorry for anyone who has such a dismissive attitude about their mishpacha. Had I thought that way, I would never have had the truly wonderful relationship with my second set of parents, that I did. I believe you must be trolling with that remark. No one who is a mensch can possibly believe such nonsense. In fact, I would be leery of redting a shidduch with ANYONE who thought that way.

    #881173
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    When my kids were little, we had a very simple rule: You don’t eat anything unless Eeees or I (or our parents or frum siblings) give it to you.

    It helps that my non-frum family has always been very respectful of our beliefs and take steps not undermine them.

    Of course, my kids are older now and know for themselves how to determine what they can eat and what they cannot.

    The Wolf

    #881174
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Frum Yidden need to keep a distance from non frum (even family) and goyim.

    Considering the fact that I am frum today, in good part, because of the influence of my frum relatives, I suppose you think it would have been better had they kept their distance from my mother, my sister and I and that all of us (and our children) remain not frum today.

    I am forever thankful to them for their “sin” of keeping in touch with non-frum relatives.

    The Wolf

    #881175
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Meaning…?

    I’m wondering if everyone would keep to their positions. For example, you would probably say the same thing as you said regarding food, to visit but maintain vigilance that your kids are not exposed to material which doesn’t meet your standards.

    Would those who said that unless there’s only kosher food available don’t visit, also say unless there’s only kosher entertainment available not to visit? More specifically, if there was an unfiltered internet connection or TV, would they insist that they be disabled, and otherwise not visit?

    #881176
    takahmamash
    Participant

    The family that matters should be the one we want our child to marry into later on. When shidduch season begins, being in touch with non-frum relatives counts badly against the prospective chosson or kallah, for exactly the reason that was proven here. In a nutshell, if they’re not frum, they’re not family.

    I personally find this kind of attitude disgusting.

    #881177
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Whenever I see some frum kids go to relatives who have a TV in the house, The TV is the first thing that goes on. They go to the TV and stay there until they leave to go home

    Those parents need to be more responsible.

    #881178
    tahini
    Member

    MorahRach and oomis1105 thank you, the observation regarding frum and not frum members of a family when it comes to shidduchim was beautifully answered by your well chosen words.

    #881179
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In a nutshell, if they’re not frum, they’re not family.

    Anyone I know who have non frum family were told by their roshei yeshiva and rebbeim to keep in touch, to whatever extent they are able to keep their children away from negative influences. In some cases, based on the sensitivity of the family, they are able to visit, and in some are able only to host. But to dismiss outright as a rule is unacceptable.

    #881180
    oomis
    Participant

    I don’t believe in not visiting loving and close relatives, regardless of their religious affiliation(I bring my own food). I don’t believe in disabling a computer in the absence of available filters. I believe in teaching my children from a very young age what they may and may not eat, what they may and may not watch, and what they may and may not do with a computer. So far, my kids don’t eat treif, they don’t watch porn, and my computer history tells me no one has ever gone to forbidden websites. If you knew my kids, you would understand how ludicrous that thought would be. And no, they are not Yeshivish. They are however, balabatish and eidel, bli ayin hara. There are many things that they (and I) could stand to correct in ourselves, but looking at inappropriate things on the internet is not one of them.

    We live IN this world, and we have to learn how to navigate the ugliness that is in it and give our kids the education and tools to fight what they will inevitably see in that world. we cannot protect them forever from EVERYTHING, without closing them off to the beauty in the world, as well.

    There is a lot of good on the internet, and the idea is to help our children learn to differentiate between the good and the bad, and reject the latter, while making great use of the former. Above all, we have to not throw the baby out along with the bathwater, and all too many people are doing exactly that.

    #881181
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    oomis +1

    #881182
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Has anyone else noticed that the op has not chimed in since starting this thread ? have we been trolled?

    #881183
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Oomis said my opinion better than even I can

    #881184
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If someone is a Bt and their parents arent religious, but are respectful of their childrens newfound beliefs. (Lets assume parents are not asking children to break any laws)

    What Lesson are you teaching your kids if you dont let the kids see their grandparents because their are “negative” influences at the grandparents house Like C’V a big screen TV.

    #881185

    Loyal Jew: “The family that matters should be the one we want our child to marry into later on. When shidduch season begins, bla bla bla “

    No. And you don’t believe that either.

    #881186
    MorahRach
    Member

    Oomis you are awesome. Well said.

    #881187
    Health
    Participant

    takahmamash -“Why? It’s up to the parents to supervise the kid and watch what the kid eats. It’s certainly not the fault of a 7 year old! The situation in the OP could have been prevented it the parents had been paying attention. We’ve gone to many events that included food with family members who are not frum, and we’ve never had this problem.”

    I was responding to this case -Obviously Not in General. This case -the parents could Not supervise their kid(s). I didn’t like the fact that some posters presumably felt that the kid should be punished for her behavior.

    “You make it sound like they MUST make a choice between one or the other. They don’t.”

    Like I just said -in this case this is their only choice.

    If supervision was possible -this topic would never have started!

    #881188
    Health
    Participant

    far east -“Have you no sensitivity towards others? What happened to loving your fellow Jew, frum or not frum, yarmulka or no yarmulka… Let alone your own biological brother! Do you think your first class and Jews who aren’t yet shower Mitzvos are second? Wouldnt you want a relationship with your brother regardless of his personel lifestyle?”

    Don’t YOU believe in loving your fellow Jew? Why didn’t you Dan me L’caf Zecus? I never said not to have a relationship with them. All I said was that if the parents are Not capable of stopping their kid from eating Treif, whatever the reason is – It could be they aren’t good parents or it could be the kid is all over the place or it could be a myriad of reasons. In this case, then the parents have to say -“We’ll only come if everything meets our kosher standards.”

    #881189
    oomis
    Participant

    🙂 to those who responded so positively.

    #881190
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oomis,

    I agree that you don’t have to avoid a relative’s house because of an unfiltered computer, but don’t let the kids out of your sight.

    I would say the same about non-kosher food with little kids: go, but don’t let them out of your sight!

    Every (or almost every) parent think the same way about their kids, that they would never do such a thing. Some of them are right (you very well may be one of them) but some are wrong.

    We’re not merely talking about a value system (although that’s obviously the most important thing), we’re also talking about the yetzer hora.

    Browsing history, by the way, is very easy to manipulate, and doesn’t even need to be done. Have you ever heard of private browsing?

    #881191
    oomis
    Participant

    “but don’t let the kids out of your sight.”

    That has always been my practice, and very sound advice whether in reference to kosher food or kosher internet use.

    BTW, people should routinely delete their browsing history. And because the Yetzer Hara is so strong, parents must be responsible and give their kids the tools from a very early age, to help them avoid such pitfalls.

    #881192
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    and my computer history tells me no one has ever gone to forbidden websites

    oomis: I’m sorry to tell you this, but that is not a good proof. It is very easy to browse without leaving a history, as well as to delete specific things from the history.

    #881193
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    oomis – I agree with the bulk of what you wrote, but I just have to echo the others in saying that you really cannot learn anything from your computer history. It’s really easy to manipulate that, and you don’t have to be any kind of expert to do so.

    #881194
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    MorahRach and others, this thread started about a child who ate treif at a family simcha. We’re not talking about relatives who, say, accept a weak hechsher but of people who are not on the program at all. If they weren’t family, we’d never be in contact with them. As for kiruv, that’s for professionals, not family simchas.

    #881195
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Loyal Jew: Thank God I’m not related to you.

    #881196
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @itche

    You actually probably are. and this is not a Hashkafa .In fact All Ashekenazic Jews are probably no more than 5 or 6th cousins.

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