April 20, 2012 2:07 am at 2:07 am #602999
This is to follow-up the discussion with “computer777”, over here, as promised:
(Hopefully the mod will have patience for some lengthy teshuvos.)
The Rashbo in Shulchan Aruch 77 forbids coercing the husband to give a get due to mous olei (i.e. she wants it because she is disgusted with him.) The only coercing a get allowed in S”A is in perek 154 and only for a forbidden marriage. Then 154 discusses the cases where the gemorah clearly demands a get. There it says passive ostracizing, but no coercion or humiliation or active pressure, is permitted. (And that even that is only in specific defined cases where the gemorah says a get is warranted; not when she simply wants it.)
Next up: Rav Eliashev’s teshuvaApril 20, 2012 2:27 am at 2:27 am #869210
Rav Eliashiv (Kovetz Teshuvos 134):April 20, 2012 2:34 am at 2:34 am #869211
Rav Moshe, in Igros Moshe (E.H. 4:106), seems to make it impossible to justify publicly embarrassing a person solely for the purpose of giving a get – especially when he can not escape from the embarrassment by moving to a different neighborhood or community.
The Minchos Yitzchok (8:137) also would invalidate direct pressure to give a get by public humilation. The only pressure permitted is that which comes from something else which is alleviated by the giving of the get. If the sole reason for the pressure is to force the giving of a get – he says it invalidates the get according to all opinions.April 20, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #869212
Teshuvos v’Hanhagos (1:389):
However it appears that what is prohibited is to humiliate him and to shun him in a manner similar to cherem – i.e, not to do business with him and not to do him a favor – and that is not done today. (Chazon Ish understands the Pischei Teshuva differently). But when he is not actively humiliated but that he is only not given honors for example he is notified that he will not receive an aliyah in his shul or any other shul and that he will not be allowed to be the shliach tzibor – then this is not like cherem at all even though it causes some humiliation. The only pressure permitted is that he should know that the community does not approve of his conduct of being cruel to his wife – but this is not called force at all.
This that the wife creates pressure with the claim that he is tormenting her and she can not stand the situation any more and that she is ready to go to “rabbis” who are lenient in divorce – that is still not justification for us to make rulings against the Torah. The ways of G-d are hidden and some suffer physically while other suffering financially and some suffer in their marriage. We need to hope to G-d that the end of suffering has arrived and that he will divorce her. On the other hand, to force him with high payments for food or to humiliate him when it is not permitted – it doesn’t help because this pressure only produces a get me’usa – G-d forbid – which has no validity. But concerning cruelty and spite which is characteristic of Sedom – only Heaven can punish him.April 20, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #869213WolfishMusingsParticipant
Again you’re harping on this topic… boy, you must really enjoy this topic.
The WolfApril 20, 2012 2:49 am at 2:49 am #869214
In reality your question is a local issue of America and it is the job of American rabbis to decide. However my view is in agreement with the rabbis there who permit the husband to remarry without any difficulty and he needs to deposit a get with beis din. But when the judgment of the secular courts has been nullified then it is prohibited for the husband to remarry until he has properly divorced the first wife.
You should be aware that we are obligated to fight against her going to secular courts and we prevent her from remarrying if she does and if the get is given under these circumstances there is a suspicion that it was coerced (me’usa). Nevertheless in a case where she claims she can’t stand him (ma’us alei) and there is no reason to believe they can be reconciled and the man is simply being cruel to her and is being spiteful by not to giving her a divorce – then even though it is prohibited for us to exert any force- G-d forbid! – nevertheless it is correct to notify the husband that the view of many of the gedolim (e.g., Rambam, Ravad, Behag, Rashbam, Rashi etc) is that he is sinning and they would encourage him to give her a get. Because even these poskim are concerned about creating [an invalid get] which would leave her as a married woman even bedieved – so G-d forbid that we should use any type of coercion. Regarding the issue of tormenting her and leaving her an aguna – it is correct for him to be concerned for her claim that she finds him revolting (ma’os alei) and it is prohibited for him to leave her as an aguna – even if she is not correct. But we are not to coerce him G-d forbid with any type of coercion that would possibly bring about a get me’usa. Rather [once we have informed him that it is wrong for him to withold the get] he needs to come the the realization himself that he must conduct himself like a descendant of Avraham and the verse says that the ways of Torah are ways of pleasantness and all its paths are peace and that he will find happiness with someone else.April 20, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #869215snjnMember
again you’re harping a topic about women. You’re so obsessed with women, relationships concerning making sure a women is in her place and whatever else would pass as acceptable talk from a man about women. Count how many threads you started and how many are harping on women? All of them! Makes one wonder….
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