April 27, 2009 12:49 am at 12:49 am #589711smarty12Member
What do you do when parents oppose a shidduch because it is not the ideal perfect person they envisioned for their child… even though their son/daughter feel strongly that the person they are dating is truly a suitable partner in life??April 27, 2009 2:08 am at 2:08 am #991585moish01Member
are you sure you want to ask this? i can just imagine the back and forth that will go on here…April 27, 2009 2:15 am at 2:15 am #991586yrosMember
as a child, i think the parents should have the power to object the shidduch but they should think about it very much but they should have in mind that the child is the one going home with the one after the wedding not the parents!!! However there is no clear cut answer and each should decide for his ownApril 27, 2009 2:18 am at 2:18 am #991587anonymisssParticipant
You speak to someone who knows you, your situation, your background, and your parents, whom you trust to guide you in a smart way. The cr’s an awesome place, but not for that.
~a~April 27, 2009 3:24 am at 3:24 am #991588hi100Member
i think it’s crazy that parents turn down girls/boys because they hear that the girl/boy is not pretty or handsome. it’s crazy because the parent is not getting marryed it’s the kid, and everyone has a different definition of pretty/handsome. just let the kid go out and see if he/she is attracted to that person! i think many good shidduchim are being prevented because of this.April 27, 2009 3:28 am at 3:28 am #991589coke not pepsiMember
what are u discussing here hashkofos? loooks? learning? what is the issue that he does or does not have?April 27, 2009 10:00 am at 10:00 am #991590
Ultimately, who you marry has to be YOUR decision. No one lives in your marriage except for you.
What I would do is sit down with your parents and ask them what they object to. Is it his religious level? Are there things they see objectively that you don’t?
I’ve had many friends go through this – mainly because what their parents wanted for their kids was not what their child actually wanted (mainly hashkafically, but sometimes education or otherthings). If you choose to go ahead with a match that your parents don’t approve of, you should be aware of a potential rift that could come between you. Sometimes, its just a temporary chill. Sometimes, these things last longer.
My advice is OPEN DIALOGUE with your parents and then make your own decision. You can consult other people you trust, but its important for YOU to make the right decision for yourself.April 27, 2009 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #991591gavra_at_workParticipant
Who is “you” that the question is asking about? the parents? the child? relatives? or stam a bystander? each one should do something different.
Assuming its the child, you should marry who you feel is correct. Perhaps in this case think it over twice. If you are sure, go ahead, but don’t expect your parents to support you.
Good luckApril 27, 2009 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #991592areivimzehlazehParticipant
what stage of the game are we talking about here?
If a shidduch has gone a long way, the girl/boy is the one making the ultimate decision. However, to begin with, you should definitely be listening to your parents. They have more life experience, may pick up on things you wouldn’t think of, know what questions to ask etc. A person can be in shidduchim for years and still benefit from their parents’ guidance.
But as always- there are always those exceptions to the rule. I have a few acquaintances where parents and child were looking for very different things and it made shidduchim very difficult. In the end, the person they each married was something in between what they were looking for and what their parents had in mind.April 27, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #991593seeallsidesParticipant
You can’t judge all cases – BUT –
Your parents are your absolute best friends and want only your best and they’ve seen a lot more than you have – so don’t be foolish and ignore their wishes – THEY KNOW!!!!
try to communicate your wishes – they will listen – but you may not always agree – and i would worry seriously if they disagreed totally!April 27, 2009 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #991594
MOST of the time, parents want what is best (as they see it) for their children. Sometimes, what they want is what is really best for themselves (yichus, gorgeous size 2 girl, money, gantze talmid chochom, etc.) but do not consider what is really what their child needs. The parents who want only a full-time learner for their daughter, may not be considering that the daughter really deep down does not want to be a kollel wife, even if that IS the way of her community. But, I think, kids should not dismiss their parents’ opinions out of hand, because (as was pointed out), we are a little more experienced in life in general. We know that what you absolutely are dying for when you are in your late teens to early 20s, may not be right for you a few years down the line.
Sometimes parents are wrong. They are human, and are subject to the same prejudices as anyone. They make mistakes of judgment,and sometimes cannot see what you see in the other person. My friend’s parents were very much against their daughter’s shidduch at first, for some very solid and valid reasons. But the girl saw something in him that they (and I) did not, and they reluctantly gave their blessing, because they did see how devoted he was to her and she to him. B”H, not only was their marriage a bracha, producing three wonderful children and a bayis n’eman b’Yisroel, but the husband is mamesh a pillar of his community, beloved by all who know him, a tremendous baal chessed and baal tzedaka, learned, as well as a financially successful man. Had her parents prevented this shidduch, who knows what his or even her derech in life might have been?
Not everyone is so fortunate. There are shidduchum that are truly unsuitable, and children should at least listen with an open mind to their parents’ objections. Come to think of it, open-mindedness is a good idea for all parties concerned. Maybe they have a point, maybe not. It should at least be heard and considered carefully. The younger the couple, the more seriously I think they need to respect their parents’ opinion. Immaturity is what it is because people are immature… When a young woman is already older, I think she needs to start listening to herself, and not to mommy and daddy as much. we all have to grow up and take responsibility for ourselves at some point.April 27, 2009 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #991595m123Member
It is wrong for parents to disuade their son/daughter from marrying someone because of wealth, yichus etc. If a child is dating someone that they feel is suitable for them in terms of hashkafos and personality the child should be able to make the decision. The child is the one that will be living with his/her spouse in the future. If a parent wants to make sure that their child marries someone that is “good enough for them” (or the family is good enough for them), they should do their research before things get serious!!!!April 28, 2009 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #991596
All parents envisage a certain type of partner as suitable for their child. Not always is this what the child envisages for themselves! Sometimes a child gets smitten by someone and it is extremley difficult to see clearly behind the outer to the inner. Sometimes it works the other way round – parents see a ‘dream’ partner who in reality is not suited to the child but is only suited in their own dream world
One question I do have is whether the person in question who is dating is dating with or without the knowledge and approval of their parents.
Smarty12 there are many questions that lie behind your original question but what I would suggest is all parties sit down with someone who is respected by both the person who is dating and the parents to discuss this logically and without rowing.April 28, 2009 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #991597212Participant
Please explain what you mean “it is not the ideal perfect person they envisioned for their child” is it that the parents don’t agree with the hashkafos or frumness or is it something like looks or family backround??? This makes a very big difference when discussing this topic!April 28, 2009 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #991598mepalMember
A parent might envision their child marriying a certain kind of person. It can be certain looks, hashkafah, yichus, frumness and many others. It depends on each individual case. Not necesarily is that the right person for the child to marry.April 28, 2009 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #991599berlinerParticipant
I know of a case where the parents were adamantly opposed to the shidduch that their child wanted. The parents tried to persuade the child not to go ahead with the shidduch. When the parents saw that the child was totally committed and would not back down, the father went with the child to Rav Chaim Kanievsky and asked Rav Chaim for his eitzah. Rav Chaim gave his eitzah (to let the child do what he felt was right – even though to the average JOE it would have seemed perfectly reasonable to agree with the parents) and the parents went along with the child’s wish……….
and they happily ever after!April 28, 2009 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #991600
Please explain what you mean “it is not the ideal perfect person they envisioned for their child” is it that the parents don’t agree with the hashkafos or frumness or is it something like looks or family backround??? This makes a very big difference when discussing this topic!
Honestly, I don’t think it matters what the reason is. The child has to make decisions about their own life, independant of what their parents want for them. Granted, I do think the child should at the very least have an open dialogue with their parents and really listen, but the child has to make their own decision and live by it.
I know a woman who says she was forced into a marriage. She wasn’t sure before she got married, and she definitely had pressure. She thought it was wrong, but listened to everyone else. That was still her CHOICE though. She chose to go through with a marriage she didn’t think would work and got divorced within the first year. I had a discussion with my mother on whether that was bad mazal on her part or a decision. My mother thinks its bad mazal, but I disagree. She made the easier choice – she was worried about being thrown out of her family if she didn’t marry this guy. She didn’t have to marry him – no rabbi in the world would perform a ceremony for someone forced. She CHOSE to go through with it and no one bears the blame for her failed marriage but her (and her ex-husband). Did others put her in a tough position? Yes. Did they enable a situation where it was hard for her to say no? Absolutely. But it was her choice.April 29, 2009 12:42 am at 12:42 am #991601beaconParticipant
smarty, I would ask a rav.April 29, 2009 1:15 am at 1:15 am #991602
Many women feel coerced into marriage by their parents, particularly if they feel a better shidduch will never come along. Honestly, I feel sorry for the partner who is being “Settled for.” That person deserves better. Even if a gun is not being put to the head of the one who is coerced, there are all types of ways of manipulating someone into doing something that you want them to do. Guilt is a powerful tool.June 14, 2009 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #991603aggadah99Participant
Sometimes a parent can find him/herself in the position of having what he feels are valid reasons to oppose the shidduch, yet keeping quiet since the reasons don’t always have bearing on the actual suitability. For example, the parent may feel that a girl suggested for their son is too young/ doesn’t seem mature enough to get married. In addition her parents live in the US whilst the boys parents live in EY and want their son to live there and are afraid that due to the girl’s youth and closeness to her family she will want to live near her own family. Parent is entitled to feel that way, but does this entitle him to jeopardize what may be a good shidduch?June 14, 2009 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #991604
Aggadah99 poses a very valid question. I know as a parent that I would be devastated if my children married someone who lived far away. I do not have the financial resources to go back and forth on visits, even within the US, and I would be heartbroken to have granchildren whom I could not see regularly. My machetonim are in that boat with their oldest son out of town, and they now have two beautiful aineklach whom they very rarely see. Don’t suggest the phone/video thing, because the children will not do it. It hurts me on their behalf to see that they are missing so many precious moments, and so are the grandchildren.June 14, 2009 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #991605lkwdfellowMember
Of course, parents want what’s best for their children. But….. they also have “negius”….. So, the only answer is to present a Sheilah to Da’as Torah. In a case like this – it has to be someone who both the parents & the child respect.June 15, 2009 3:02 am at 3:02 am #991606anonymrsParticipant
if a parent feels that their child is old enough and mature enough to get married, wouldnt it follow that their child is old enough and mature enough to pick a suitable spouse? i can understand that there may be objections which come up over time which may not have been present or known about at the time that the shidduch first came about.
there is nothing wrong with discussing opposition or anything else, but ultimately the choice should be up to the person getting married. there are times when intervention is needed, but that is NOT the majority of the time.June 15, 2009 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #991607
Anonymrs, I’m with you 100%. I never understood that…June 15, 2009 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #991608
A child may be mature enough to get married, and it should be his or her choice, BUT, as all parents know, sometimes when a younger person is eager to get married, he doesn’t always see the bigger picture. Sometimes the IDEA of getting married,especially if all of oen’s friends are busy getting engaged also, is more appealing than actually doing so. Many girls feel pressured into getting married before they really know what they want out of life. They have been structured into thinking along certain lines, especially in seminary, and when they see what real life entails, they are shocked. Sometimes a parent sees something that is not evident to the shadchan or even to the boy or girl involved. It might be something as subtle as noticing something about the family when they meet, or as blatant as a real chisaron in the boy or girl.
If the objection is because “the other side” is not sufficiently wealthy or yichusdig to suit them, then I hope the child does not allow that to interere.June 15, 2009 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #991609
Oomis, there is a difference between a parent offering guidance and a parent shooting down a shidduch. Parents should offer guidance; when their children make a decision though, the parents should respect that, even if they think its wrong.June 15, 2009 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #991610
i know this is a little off-topic, but oomis raised a point that I am curious about. why is there that pressure to get married? just because some girls from seminary are getting married, why should there be a pressure on the rest? it does not mean that those still unmarried are “less of a catch” but rather that they have not found the right one for them. why do we do this to our children to force them to marry when they are not ready? is it for our own selfishness?June 15, 2009 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #991611tzippiMember
To havesomeseichel: I didn’t get an answer from anyone when I posed this on another thread. But isn’t it interesting how the mindset in the most heimish of circles has gone from, marry them off young, before they have time to be corrupted by outside mores (careers, “being ready”) and let them grow up together, to what I’m seeing on this and other boards? Personally, I have my own approach and it’s not black and white. But for those whom things always have been b/w, how are they adjusting to this incredibly dramatic shift in thought?June 15, 2009 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #991613mepalMember
seichel, I believe that there is a pressure to get married ASAP since the girl and the parents are afraid the girl may end up single at <gasp> twenty three. Because of this whole ‘crisis’ (growing number of older singles) girls feel a need to ‘just get married’ lest they remain an unfortunate, unmarried single girl of 23+. I’ve heard of too many divorce stories that happened since the girl was ‘forced’ into the marriage because of this pressure.
I do not believe in girls getting married straight after seminary. I feel that a girl should first get some degree (or begin working towards one) and some experience in the ‘real world’ before diving into marriage.
But I do think the above causes pressure in others to try to marry as soon as they can.June 15, 2009 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #991614
“Oomis, there is a difference between a parent offering guidance and a parent shooting down a shidduch. Parents should offer guidance; when their children make a decision though, the parents should respect that, even if they think its wrong”
We are in agreement here. However, what if the parents see something the child cannot see or refuses to see. My close friends were very much opposed to their daughter’s shidduch. They saw the boy as very controlling. The girl had stars in her eyes, and would not listen, and they let her marry the boy che chose. Several children later, she is in an unhappy marriage to a control freak, they live out of town and barely see the parents, who for a number of legitimate reasons are unable to travel to see them, and she is not going to do anything about it becaue, “he is a good father, at least.”
To answer the question of pressure on the girls, sometimes that pressure is simply the desire to fit in and be a part of whatever is going on witht he rest of their friends. All the girls are getting married – she wants to get married, too.
The truth is, many girls abandon their single friends, even before the wedding takes place, because they are now a couple with “couple” things to do, and the single friends are really not part of that scene. It takes very special sensitivity to maintain relationships with friends who are not in a couples situation. I had a friend who complained bitterly about being excluded from events when her former friends got married. No one ever called her anymore or responded to her calls. When I got married, I made a special point of inviting her for Shabbosim, trying to get together for a lunch, calling her and leaving messages. Guess who never responded to my attempts to keep the friendship alive?
Parents want the best for their children, though there is sometimes a difference of opinion as to what constitutes what is “best.” I think that kids should take their parents’ words to heart and at least give some thought to their objections. If there is a validity to what they are saying, they should think twice about the shidduch. But if not, and if they are not immature and unrealistic, they should follow their heart.June 15, 2009 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #991616artchillParticipant
Oomis you are 100% correct in situations of middos, the parents should definitely press the issue with their child. In the excitement of dating for short periods of time (which is de rigeur in the haimishe system) a bad personlity could be overlooked by the girl/boy. Parents should definitely raise their concern.
The other “essential” information like sizes etc. are NONE of the parents business. He/she is marrying the person , NOT the parents and family.
Here is my 100% brutally honest assessment, albeit controversial opinion:
The root cause of the pressure to rush into shidduchim like a chicken without a head is the advertised “Shidduch Crisis”. The only winners thus far in the whole “Shidduch Crisis” mess are the shadchanim who can now push their damaged goods onto unsuspecting girls with a threat of becoming a “Shidduch Crisis” statistic. Hence, the girls settle on the most basic requirements that make a Bayis Ne’eman B’Yisroel.
The point is of a shidduch is to build an everlasting home, not a yearlong trial marriage. By ignoring very obvious red lights and air raid sirens, people are making a horrific mistake. Stay calm and realize that the only way to establish a Jewish home, is with the involvement of Hashem. Have bitachon, but you must do hishtadlus and check IMPORTANT things out carefully.
Best of luck!June 15, 2009 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #991617chaverimMember
tzippi, do you seriously believe online discussion boards anywhere near represent the voice of klal yisroel, do you? In fact, the opinion of marry young was and still is the mindset of those steeped in Torah. The only thing is, people from that mindset are not usually found in online discussion boards.June 16, 2009 12:33 am at 12:33 am #991618
“In fact, the opinion of marry young was and still is the mindset of those steeped in Torah.”
what is it that makes marrying young=being steeped in torah? I fail to see the correlation between the two. there are many people who marry young and are not “torahdik” and there are those who dont marry young who are.June 16, 2009 12:40 am at 12:40 am #991619
oomis, please understand the perspective of your single friend. She wants her friends back and at the same time does not want to be a “nebech case” that everyone should invite over. she probably does not want to come for shabbos as that will emphasize her single-ness. she might want to do the type of things that you two did together before you were married as that, to her, shows the friendship of old. She might think, however wrongly, that your desire to be with her is to have a “chessed case”. you said that you tried calling and making plans ect and she didnt respond. maybe she just was too hurt by all the other former friends.July 9, 2009 3:57 am at 3:57 am #991620
For all those people who are saying that parents know best… I truly think you are either: a)naiive b)a parent who is in conflict with their children or c)in complete denial…
I know that for myself and for many of my friends who have gone more to the ‘right’ of our families and wish to raise our future children in ways very different than what we grew up with, the balance between respecting parents’ opinions in important matters (such as shidduchim) and standing up to what we believe in is not such a simple one…
My parents tell me all the time: “We know what’s best for you… We’ve lived longer than you… We have more life experience than you have… We are your parents… We know you…” In my head I am always thinking… “You WANT what’s best for me… that doesn’t necessarily mean you KNOW what’s best… Yes, You have lived longer and have more life experiences… but you never had my life experiences… you never met the people I met… You didn’t have the same influences as me… and Yes, you are my parents… and I love you so much… but I’m sorry, there are large parts of me that you don’t know… and cannot understand…”
And this is not just a single incident… I know many many girls who are struggling with the same thing…July 9, 2009 10:19 am at 10:19 am #991621
Whoa, you appear to be one very angry young lady.
I will not draw on your actual case as it would be wrong to comment on what you say about your parents (a) not knowing you and (b) not knowing your parents and finally (c) not being able to verify both sides of this argument.
I am not naiive or in conflict with my kids or in denial. I am a lot older than you so I suppose you’ll write off my opinions as dated and useless.
You comment that your parents have never had your lifes’ experiences. Sorry but at your age you have not had any life experiences. All you have had until now is childhood and teenage years.
You are at a vulnerable and impressionable age and this is where maturity of age comes into the equation. Older folk see beyond what you are seeing right now. For example; You see the family car as old, cranky and an embarrasment to be seen in or drive. We see the car as a means of getting to A – Z quickly and comfortably. We own it and can afford it. You don’t and can’t!
There is nothing wrong with listening to what your parents have to say without interpreting it negatively – you won’t get anywhere with that attitude and it’s childish. Cildren feel when they reach a certain age it allows them to overide anything their parents may have to say on any matter.
Fact: No parent will force a child into a marriage they say is perfect for them and that the child does not want.
Fact: Most parents will try to draw from the child’s form of education, school, sem/yeshiva, chinuch in the home, hashkofa etc to make some form of conclusion as to what MAY (note the word may, which means possibly not definately) be suited to their child in regards to a shidduch.
That all said, along the way there may well be arguments such as: I want a learner for minimum ten years (and who will fund this??) or I want a clean shaven, kippa sruga guy / a girl who not cover her hair (Oi Vey, but our family all wear shtreimels/hats on the shetel).
There are many reasons as to why parents feel a shidduch is unsuitable. So act like an adult, and talk to them, explain the direction you wish to move in do not discuss these things with your friends who are as young and impressionable and opinionated as you.July 9, 2009 11:36 am at 11:36 am #991622jphoneMember
“When Parents Don’t Support a Shidduch…”
I know this is extreme, but if you are 100% certain that your choice of a shidduch is correct (through objectively looking at the situation, discussing with rabbeim, teachers or whoever it is you turn to in life), then I say go ahead with the shidduch, but be prepared to be without parental support. I use the word support with all its connotations.
Be open and honest with the other side of the shidduch and let them know how your parents feel. It is not fair (and is likely against halacha, but obviously not issuing a psak here) to the other side and quite dishonest to allow them to enter into a shidduch not knowing this basic fact.July 9, 2009 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #991623
Nobody, age does not always mean life experience. I had more life experience at 16 than many adults just because of what life threw my way. Also, growing up the last 15 years or so is VERY different from what it was when our parents were growing up. When I was in high school (almost 15 years ago!!!) I told my mother about what was going on with drugs and all sorts of other things. She was shocked at many of the things going on and she went to PUBLIC SCHOOL IN THE 1960s. Life is different nowadays and parents don’t have all the answers.
What AS said “You WANT what’s best for me… that doesn’t necessarily mean you KNOW what’s best…” I think is a very true statement. Parents generally want the best for their kids and assume they know what it is.
Many parents think they know better; some do. Ultimately, if you are old enough to get married, you are old enough to choose who to marry. For better or worse – no one is living in your marriage but you.July 9, 2009 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #991624gavra_at_workParticipant
Perhaps they just don’t want to have to support you for the rest of their lives, and are not willing to let you live in poverty. You may think it is easy to live in poverty, but yes, they do know better.July 9, 2009 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #991625
SJS – Guidance goes a long way. As I said parents usually base what they are looking for on how the children were brought up and the home environment they came from – that does not mean they always get it right but it usually a safe place to start from.
We must realise that proper shidduchim are way different from the goyshe way of seeking a partner and the tznius way of a shidduch is to take guidance from the parents and not go out clubbing or holidaying seeking your own partner or discussing the shidduchim with your friends. I am not saying that everyone has to marry via this method but if you are going down the shidduch route then guidance from parents is the correct way to go.
Whilst I appreciate your comments about your own life again I would say that the experiences you went through made you grow up but only as far as it is possible for a 16 year old simply due to the fact that you have had limited years on this planet.
I agree that life is different to when we grew up and I am much older than you but I am young enough and I hope wise enough to also know that I was once a teenager who really did know everything and my parents knew nothing. Furthermore I was sure my parents had no idea know who I wanted to marry because they were too old to know anything about my life. But……. many years down the line their guidance helped me in the transition of life from youngster to adult and I now appreciare that although they are no longer alive for me to tell themJuly 9, 2009 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #991626jphoneMember
Guidance does not mean “its my way or the highway” or in this particular situation, “the shidduch we want, or none at all” (some older singles claim this is THE root cause for the “shidduch crisis” – but I do not want this thread to turn to that discussion).
The bigger questions are:
1: Are the parents being honest enough with their own child to assure that the guidance stems from whats best for the child and not whats best for their image?
2: Is the son/daughter mature enough to understand the parents position and are they confident enough in their decision to go ahead despite their misgivings?July 9, 2009 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #991627
Nobody, I understand what you are saying. And I mostly agree.
But I do know plenty of adults who have less life experience than me. My in-laws are a classic case and I wouldn’t trust them for advice in life. My MIL wasn’t crazy about me when she first met me (and later told me her reasons – all that had NOTHING to do with what my husband would care about in a spouse). I am happy that my husband chose his own path, rather than following his parents.
I guess I was a never a teenager who “knew everything.” I always respected the advice of my mother – it doesn’t mean I always followed it, but I always listened with an open ear. I always thought about what she was saying and how I felt about it.
I agree that guidance is important, but at a certain point, the person getting married has to make the decision. If someone isn’t mature enough to decide WHO to marry, how are they mature enough to get married?
I don’t understand not discussing this with your friends – they might have a different insight into what your parents are looking for that isn’t right or what you are looking for that is detrimental. You just have to make sure to talk to the right friends who can give constructive advice.July 9, 2009 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #991628jewish and working 22Member
As being in the “shidduch parsha” and having this discussion i guess i will put my two cents in (in a males perspective).
First, if your parents are the paying for the dates and you plan on having them support you after you get married, then they have every right in whom you should date. If you don’t want them to tell you who you date, my advice is not to expect any support from them and go out, get a job, and live your own life. That is what i have done.
Second, i came across the following quote which is apropos: “Your parents, they give you your life, but then they try to give you their life.” Again, if you want to live your own life, get out from their shadow and GO. Keep in touch with them, even live in there house, just gain some independence.
As noted in the previous posts, if you are mature enough to get married (and hopefully you are since that is why you are dating) then you should be mature enough to go out without having your parents holding your hand the entire courtship.July 9, 2009 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #991629YW Moderator-39Member
1. Unfortunately there are parents who are vicariously trying to live their life through their children. Parents who fit into this category are in no way shape and form looking for what is best for their child.
2. The Shulchan Aruch states that one does not need to listen to their parents when mum or dad say not to marry someone.
That is not to say that mum or dad are automatically wrong, nor is that to say one should not try to see where they are coming from, and if perhaps they are correct here. Just trying to say that this is not a violation of kibud av v’emJuly 9, 2009 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #991630
Thanks for all the responses… I feel I need to clarify a few points…
I am definitely not saying that I believe my parents do not have any advice to give. I truly respect my parents and I know that they are wise people. I just know that in the area of Hashkafa and frumkeit, they do NOT have the same life experiences and they cannot understand me. Yes, I grew up in their home, but no, I am not the same people. And to say that a girl in their 20’s has had no life experience and is just a teenager who thinks they know everything, is a very ignorant thing to say.
Yes, my parents have had more life experiences… but they did not have my life experiences… Everyone is different…
And also, those comments about expecting parents to pay for things and being immature… How can you judge someone without even knowing them. WHy do you assume that I am a typical single, dependent girl living with and expecting my parents funding. My parents happen to have raised me to be an independent adult. I do not expect any money to be handed to me. ANd if my parents offered it to me, I would be very grateful…. but I would also feel horrible because I know that this is not the lifestyle they wanted me to lead… I’m not trying to impose my views on them, let alone, expect them to ‘sponsor’ something they do not approve of!
I hope to give my parents much nachas. Right now, I need to work out how to proceed with shidduchim… but in no way am I an ungrateful teenager!!!July 9, 2009 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #991631
I wanted to specifically respond to nobody’s reply:
I am sorry that I sounded like an angry young lady! It must have been really late at night and I am seriously struggling with this right now. I did not mean to sound so negative.
I DO NOT automatically write off a person’s advice based on age… I try not to write off anyone’s advice. I have many Rabbanim/teachers that I listen to and respect.
As stated in my previous post. I completely disagree that I have not had any life experiences. YOu are correct in stating that my life experiences were in childhood and in my teenager years… but they are experiences nonetheless. I am actually teaching young teenagers now… and I do not believe that they know everything nor did I think that I knew everything as a teenager. I was very open to ideas and opinions of other people.
When you say that old folks see beyond what you see now, I must say that I completely agree with that statement. That is why it is always suggested to ask ‘wisdom of the old and wise 🙂 ‘ “Zakein= Ze sheKana Chachma”… There are times, however, that even people who are a lot older than you cannot see past what their opinions are. There are also many people, regardless of age, that cannot understand that not everyone in their life wants exactly what they consider best for themselves!
Your statement about the car is, in my case, completely reversed. I grew up around people who felt that cars were something that had to look perfect, be washed frequently, and cost a lot of money so as not to embarrass the owner in front of his neighbors… but I agree with you 100% that all it needs to do is serve its funtion. And when you say You cannot afford a car… You are once again snapping to judgement… I do own a car (albeit one who just about serves its function 🙂 but no less a car…)
I have a lot more things to say… but I’ll end with this… You said ‘don’t discuss this with your opinionated friends…’ Baruch Hashem, Hashem has given me people that I can discuss the situation with… I firmly agree that it is important not to discuss this with your friends… it brings to exaggeration of negativity and lashon horah. I do get chizuk from some of my friends… but aside from this coffee room over here… this is not a ‘conspiracy of teenagers’…
One more thing… I hope I didn’t/don’t sound like an ungrateful, opinionated, impressionable teenager… Judging by the comments, maybe I have been… but these are not my intentions… I am not ‘rebellious’ for the sake of ‘rebellion’… I love my parents very much and I do respect them in many ways… I believe people are entitled to their own opinions as long as it is in conjunction with Daas Torah!!!July 10, 2009 1:52 am at 1:52 am #991632
One more postscript: nobody, you said: “Fact: Most parents will try to draw from the child’s form of education, school, sem/yeshiva, chinuch in the home, hashkofa etc to make some form of conclusion as to what MAY (note the word may, which means possibly not definately) be suited to their child in regards to a shidduch.”
You are very correct in my case… That is exactly what my parents are doing: trying to draw from my form of education, high school, chinuch in the home… to make some form of conclusion… And I understand why they are doing this because normally it would make sense… but not if you are not interested in raising a family the way you were brought up!July 10, 2009 4:32 am at 4:32 am #991633bein_hasdorimParticipant
To answer the original question, If it’s in ruchnius,
I think the parents have a right to object,
& the child should respect their wishes.
However if it’s in Gashmiyus, & or Shtusim, then the child
has no obligation to listen & should RESPECTFULLY do what
he feels is right.
One should tell them respecfully, that ultimately he/her is the on who will
live with her/him & it’s his choice.
Unless (in my humble opinion) he is Somuch Al Shulchan Oviv,
then if they support him/her they should have a say.July 10, 2009 8:51 am at 8:51 am #991634
My analagy of the car was merely plucked from the air and not directed at you personally therefore I was not snapping to judgment. I was trying to show how younger people compared to older people look at a car. Repeat – not you personally.
Next… “but not if you are not interested in raising a family the way you were brought up!” Again this is written in a negative, confrontational tone. If the manner used to your parents is more explanatory and courteous you would get further.
Parents are not unresaonable – they just a good explanation as to why their kids have come to this decision (whatever it is) in their lives and they want to ensure it is not a spur of the moment, fad, outside influence, friends, sem, etc etcJuly 10, 2009 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #991635
nobody, I definitely do not use this manner in talking to my parents… and once again, I did not intend for it to be negative or confrontational… I meant it as a fact… ‘for those people who do not want a shidduch to be pulled from a similar upbringing than what they had…’ It’s not that simple…
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