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November 18, 2021 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2030189
We need a list. It is important to know who is and is not a real gadol. Chofetz Chaim says you are not supposed to praise a not-100% tzaddik as it invites people to immediately find something negative about him, as we clearly see here.November 18, 2021 7:16 am at 7:16 am #2030199
There are prominent names of rabbis that in the core of the yeshivos are known not to be gedolei yisroel, but kevodam bemkomam omedes… When i asked a certain gadol regarding another gadol from previous generations who refrained from saying halel on 5 iyyar, he told me that he wasn’t the same as the chazon ish or other top tier gedolim.. There is a method to the seemingly arbitrary categorizingNovember 18, 2021 7:17 am at 7:17 am #2030200
Cult mentality is hallmarked by a fear of anything outside and by castigating all outsiders as enemies or people in need of enlightenmentNovember 18, 2021 7:54 am at 7:54 am #2030197
I was holding off on it, but it needs to be said – Surprising as it may be to some, I’ve heard from several gedolei yisroel that exact expression, that he was not a gadol. when i was a teenager and unsure about a lot of things, i asked pointed questions to rabbonim I was close with, one of whom was a gadol beyisroel who said the exact words “he said a sharp vort here and there, but was not from the major leagues”, after saying that he made a moshiach driven campaign to leave behind a legacy in the absence of having children. Later on i learned that many gedolim have said similar things, with the brisker rov saying ,”this meshuganeh thinks he’s moshiach”, or the satmar rov calling him a “shoteh”.
Gedolei yisroel have judged one another before; this isn’t new. Rebbe Evyasar was doubted at first by other amoraim as to his gadol status (מאן לימא לך דרבי אביתר בר סמכא הוא), in gitin 6b. Be was obviously accepted, but there are many other examples where a rabbi is rejected by the composite of gedolim and lomdei torah. These include people like shlomo yehudah rappaport, shmuel Dovid luzzato, the author of me’or aynayim in the time of the maharal(not the chasidish sefer from the heiliger tchernobler), and many others.
There are criteria to be considered a gadol. Tzidkus, torah knowledge, mesorah…a key element is lack of negius. It seems from the behavior of the lubavitcher rebbe that it was in the last element that he was most missing. He was a genius who amassed a lot of knowledge, kept the mitzvos as far as we know, had a mesorah, but seems to have fell prey to the yatzer hora for kovod and gaavah. We see it in the personality cult, the pictures everywhere, the parades, the reformation of chabad into a movement with symbols (the rambam menorah), missionary “shluchim” , the promises of redemption… It points to what my rebbe said about him wanting to leave behind a legacy in the absence of children.November 18, 2021 8:16 am at 8:16 am #2030268☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
We need a list. It is important to know who is and is not a real gadol.
It is indeed very important to know who is a gadol, but there is no universally accepted listNovember 18, 2021 8:56 am at 8:56 am #2030277
Syag, I only realized now that you look and go into so much depth of my words, that i realized I must explain myself properly.
“You have even built a sect who teaches that our gedolim and rebbe’s are just commonfolk, there are, as you put it, “thousands of them. It’s pretty hard to keep track”. Unlike your rebbe… And you don’t chap the problem with that?”
You are looking at the negative side of the words, but I wasn’t meaning that. I was saying you need to look at a different perspective, and I was trying to help you see that. The litvishe school I went to, they called every Rosh Yeshiva a Gadol. I know many of them, but there are many in Eretz Yisrael and America and all over the world that I haven’t heard of, and you can’t blame Lubavitcher Children not to know of.
I am pretty flattered that you take my exact wording so seriously.November 18, 2021 8:57 am at 8:57 am #2030280
Avira, please provide a source for where the brisker rav said that. I would not believe it in a 100 years otherwise.
And, whether or not some gedolei yisrael said he was not a gadol or not, he is a Gadol and we all have to respect him.November 18, 2021 9:00 am at 9:00 am #2030287
So… what is a godol?November 18, 2021 9:03 am at 9:03 am #2030291
I find it hilarious that a bunch of zundels on the cr the rebbe is not considered a godol. Have you read his reshimus on nigleh? He was a genius when it came to gemerah and such, Talmidei chachamim came to the Rebbe to ask shailos they had on pshat of a gemerah. The rebbe never showed off his genius as other individuals have. There is a story that at the rebbes chasona, rebeim from all sects and big gedoilim came to the wedding. They mainly came for the kalahs side as it was from a rabbinical dynasty. When the previous rebbe told certain gedoilim to talk torah with the rebbe they where blown away. When they came back from telling the previouse rebbe what a great son in law he has, to discuss more torah, the rebbe said that he was told to discuss with him torah by his father-in-law but now that he left and came back he wasnt instructed to discuss torah and he didnt want to because of his humility.November 18, 2021 9:15 am at 9:15 am #2030302☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
And, whether or not some gedolei yisrael said he was not a gadol or not, he is a Gadol and we all have to respect him.
Not sure what that’s supposed to mean. Are we supposed to accept your assessment over the assessment of gedolim?November 18, 2021 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2030306
“And, whether or not some gedolei yisrael said he was not a gadol or not, he is a Gadol and we all have to respect him.”
I’d say this pretty much puts an end to anyone thinking this discussion had Torah behind it.
Case closedNovember 18, 2021 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2030304
Farby, i hooe you realize that lubavitcher rebbe stories (there are thousands) come only from chabad. Chasidish gedolim such as the poskim cited above don’t quote him in their teshuvos, let alone the litvishe poskim. Outside of chabad, MO revered him as a tzadik, as did sefardim who flock to kabalists, but few gedolim acknowledged him as anyone significant. Rav avigdor miller did, but in his later years stopped referring to him in mesholim of tzadikim and generally understood why the yeshiva world, led by rav shach, was opposed. Rav pam also originally said that rav shach is “talking to bnei eretz yisroel” but later was chozer.
It’s only laughable if one lives in isolation. Where i come from, the lubavitcher rebbe is not considered a gadol. Rabbi kook and rabbi yoshe ber Soloveitchik are held in higher learning esteem, yet are not accepted due to their divergence from mesorah.November 18, 2021 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2030305
Farby, see the criteria stated above. The chazon ish writes in igros that one can discern who the gedolim are by who the majority of lomdei torah follow as well. Most lomdei torah have nothing to do with lubavitch, which occupies less than 10% of observant jewry.
TS, in brisker yeshivos this is the story that all the roshei yeshiva said over, including rav meir, rav berel, rav Avrohom yehoshua ybl”ch, rav tzvi kaplan, etc. You can also ask talmidim of rav berel such as rav elya ber wachtfofel. Briskers are known for being extremely medakdek in stories, to the letter in which they were originally said over
It’s not in chidushei hagri”z if that’s what you’re getting at.November 18, 2021 9:46 am at 9:46 am #2030313
“I find it hilarious that a bunch of zundels on the cr the rebbe is not considered a godol.”
And there it is again. Farby knows his rebbe is the nasi of the dor because he/his talmidim taught him so, but when we follow the words of our gedolim we are a bunch of zundels on the cr.
Hmmm…November 18, 2021 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2030456Avram in MDParticipant
“We need a list. It is important to know who is and is not a real gadol”
I suspect that unfortunately most who bring up specific names here do so knowing there’s controversy.November 18, 2021 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2030455Avram in MDParticipant
“we do tend to know about our personal Rebbes because they are our rebbes.”
That is fine, and given my family’s background and location, my children do/will tend to know more about our personal poskim, and gedolim such as Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Chofetz Chaim, than say the dayan in Kalamazoo, the Baba Sali or the Skulener Rebbe. But relative familiarity is not what I’m talking about. From my perspective, it seems that many in Chabad give little to no acknowledgement of any contemporaneous Yiddishkeit or Torah outside of Chabad at all, almost as if they are sundered from the rest of the Jewish world and we’re actually two separate religious groups. I think that situation is accentuated in Syag’s community, and more muted in mine. And I know that many in Chabad will say that is because of misnagdus, and many outside of Chabad will say that is because Chabad believes non-Chabad Torah is inferior and unworthy of attention. But this communal situation is why I think simply saying the mishichists are nuts is not ending the debate.November 18, 2021 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2030511
So…. what is a godol.November 18, 2021 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #2030513
I think that now I understand that some people here are anti Chabad inside and they don’t plan on changing, I think I’m going to leave this discussion if this is the way you treat a tzaddik.November 18, 2021 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2030518
And I think you are wrong to say that. You came on here asking questions and answering questions and we did the same. You had no problem making rude references to Rav Shach but are suddenly calling us anti chabad because you don’t like the things we are saying that we are backing up with sources, examples and daas Torah. Does that really make sense? Is that the way it works? You can say whatever you want about non chabad people, gedolim (oh a dime a dozen, fallible, not REAL giants like our rebbe) and mesorah but when someone says it to you, AH, suddenly it’s anti chabad and we are not treating a tzaddik well. You don’t h
even have a legitimate tayna. Nothing was just “said” and since you said it too, who are you to complain.
How truly disappointing. If this is what your teachers have taught you to say (blame them, they hate you) then shame on them. If it is your own response (I don’t like what they are saying so they are wrong) then shame on you. If you can respect a man in a dress with five piercings and a tattoo who wants to put on tefillin, but you can’t have a conversation with frum yidden who live differently than you without dumping the blame, then your “love all yidden” campaign is a scam.November 18, 2021 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #2030521
Avirah – “i hooe you realize that lubavitcher rebbe stories (there are thousands) come only from chabad.” This statement is false.
And in all of what you have been telling over above, I personally think it is extremely important to keep your personal revelations and conclusions out of it. It waters down the information that is given from sources from whom we need to follow and respect. And that was the point of what we all have been trying to give over.November 18, 2021 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #2030585
Syag, I wonder how you think what you said to farby makes sense. I dont recall him saying any rude references to Rav Shach, who for your information, made rude statements about lubavitch and the rebbe. You are saying such hypocritical things.
You look at someone’s exact wording and make up whatever you want to learn out from that sentence.
You are not backing up what you said with sources, examples, or Daas Torah!
You are willing to say that a Gadol, who you almost never follow, says that the Rebbe is just a regular Rav, which is directly saying a false and biased thing, you are putting down a tzadik, making him look like nothing, but then you get so mad if we say anything about a Gadol that you find disrespecftul! Why should we not be mad if you say shaming things about our Rebbe?November 18, 2021 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #2030601
You maybe should reread the thread with a pencil and paper and take notes. You’ll be less confused. You’ll still be mad and call us names, but if you are honest with yourself you won’t be confusedNovember 18, 2021 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #2030609
I should have clarified; there are a lot of non chabad people who have stories of yeshuos, hashgocha protis, even mofsim in relation to the lubavitcher rebbe. What i was referring to is their reports of his interactions with other rabbonim.November 18, 2021 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2030631ujmParticipant
“who refrained from saying halel on 5 iyyar”
Avira, did you mean tachnun?November 18, 2021 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #2030633Yserbius123ParticipantNovember 19, 2021 2:25 am at 2:25 am #2030675PekakParticipant
True achdus and shalom/peace doesn’t have to mean that we’re dancing together and hugging each other all day everyday. When ehrliche yidden accept other ehrliche yidden’s right to daven their nusach and go to their respective manhigim for guidance and/or blessings, that is the best achdus.
Rav Zalman Brizel ZT”L of Yerushalayim once said (I’m paraphrasing, not necessarily quoting) “My Rebbe doesn’t have to be the biggest Rebbe. He’s MY Rebbe”.November 19, 2021 8:07 am at 8:07 am #2030755
“You are calling people “anti-Chabad” for saying that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol but he wasn’t the greatest gadol of the 20th century by a wide margin. That’s ridiculous.”
I have never called anyone “anti-chabad” for that. You don’t have to think the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the greatest. I’m okay if you respect him enough at least like any other Gadol would be respected. I was referring to those who were saying that Gedolim said the Lubavitcher WASN”T a Gadol AT ALL, which is totally a wrong and bad thing to say. That I’m not okay with one bit.November 19, 2021 8:11 am at 8:11 am #2030762
Who cares if you are okay with it. Following our rabbeim isn’t about you. If you excuse yourself for terrible jokes/comments/thoughts about rav shach, why should you complain that we follow the opinions of many gedolim as well? If you are going to use such petty criteria it’s not anti chabad unless you are anti litvish.November 19, 2021 8:20 am at 8:20 am #2030766
Number 1, I never said any comment about Rav Shach.
You are literall puttting words into my mouth which aren’t true. Why are you making up that your anti-chabad unless you are anti-litvish????
I, in fact, enjoy talking with many litvishe yidden, but they are ehrliche yidden who don’t like starting fights about lubavitch and they realize there is no point in doing it. They actually respect lubavitch very much, and I respect the litvish very much. I am bothered by a few things, but I don’t go around shaming litvishe gedolim. I have a Sichos Rebi Nosson Tzvi in my seforim.November 19, 2021 8:47 am at 8:47 am #2030770
I know that you have a few bachurim and a few screen names. It was one of them. I say “you” because you all argue the same complaints and the same points.
I am not making up that you are anti chabad unless you are anti litvish, I said that if you all are going to decide that not holding of your rebbe means anti chabad, than you not holding of ours is anti litvish. I was saying that its stupid.
I also have a lot of respect for many people in chabad. I listen to and respect YY Jacobson, I think the mesiras newest of the shluchim is unbelievable. And when I encounter chabadniks in my chesed work I treat them no differently than any other yid. But if my rabbeim have harsh words for the rebbe that they base on Halacha, mesorah, personal knowledge or even ruach hakodesh then that becomes our reality. You have no business calling someone anti chabad for that. Now do you understand?
I used to listen to a shiur by a very brilliant accepted rabbi. One day he said something a bit off. Later he did it again. Do I say, “he is a choshuva rebbe, I will just accept that”? No. I turned to those greater to see what their response was and eventually he was put aside. He was “un acknowledged”. We follow our gedolim.November 19, 2021 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2030881
Syag > One day he said something a bit off. Later he did it again .. He was “un acknowledged”.
This is good as long as you define “a bit off”. A typical “off” (from today’s Taanis Daf) would be a talmid chacham whose middos are not appropriate, who is not doing what they are preaching, rough on people, etc. On the other hand, some people define “off” as a thought process departing from accepted in their community. In the latter case, there is some benefit of listening to a T’Ch of a different approach just to appreciate different aspects of Torah, even if you do not plan to subscribe to his views. But maybe you get enough of this medicine here.November 19, 2021 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #2030915
I don’t need to define “a bit off” because the context here was clear to the players. There was a claim that even if our gedolim tell us someone has lost chezkas kashrus, we should still hold of them because they said so. I added to that from the other side. Just because a person was highly respected, that does not mean they cannot lose that position when they no longer qualify.
You are bringing irrelevent examples as I said that he “said something off”. And i don’t care what other people think of it, I turn to those in position to make the call. You seem so stuck (as in immobile) from the idea that people need to respect all different kinds of opinions and speakers, even if it is heretical or apikorsus, because maybe our leaders really just don’t know the difference and are myopic. Just entertaining that thought indicates that you don’t seem to get the difference between open minded and inappropriate. Maybe it’s your upbringing, or maybe it’s too much time spent revering people who are chipping away at your purity.
“In the latter case, there is some benefit of listening to a T’Ch of a different approach just to appreciate different aspects of Torah, even if you do not plan to subscribe to his views.”
as you have demonstrated, you are under the impression this includes everyone with a yarmulke, who is shomer shabbos and calls themselves orthodox. You believe it is proof that we should be honoring people and ways that are corrosive. You don’t seem to understand that the box this is in (or plastic container if you don’t like boxes) excludes your free thinkers like slifkin and steinsaltz. Same as you laud the Rambam’s secular knowledge because you think it is proof you should go out and do the same. This is a gross misunderstanding of what is going on here.November 19, 2021 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2030959
Ujm, yea, i misspoke, I meant tachanunNovember 20, 2021 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2031095
Syag> all different kinds of opinions and speakers, even if it is heretical or apikorsus,
where did you get it, I am not sure.
> laud the Rambam’s secular knowledge because you think it is proof you should go out and do the same.
I am not saying everyone should. And I would think if Rambam would think that he should be the last Jewish person to learn science, he would say so. Please provide a citation. I would not be surprised that he would define some limitations, I would be interested to learn specifically.
I do not want to get into personalities, but I am not sure what is your issue w/ R Steinsaltz. I never heard anything inappropriate from him, and I saw with my own eyes totally non-modern yeshivish and Chassidish Rabonim (including at least one from your town) either sitting at the same table or participating in worthy initiatives started by R Steinsaltz.November 20, 2021 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #2031110
Seek and ye shall findNovember 20, 2021 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #2031127
AAQ – steinsaltz was called a kofer explicitly by the steipler and rav shach. No, they did not use that term mildly. The only place steinsaltz had refuge from the controversy was in chabad, because of an ancillary affiliation that he had with the lubavitcher rebbe. You will see steinsaltz gemaras in chabad shuls at times.
The issues with him can be clearly seen in his book “biblical images” where he casts people in tanach like characters in a soap opera. He also was part of a fake Sanhedrin. He was a very intelligent baal teshuva who had no mesorah and made up things as he went along. He also wrote garbled kabalah books in English for “laymen” and decided that he was qualified to reprint shas with his perush next to rashi’s.November 20, 2021 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #2031135
Normative halacha as outlined in shu”a y.d 246:4 . is that learning secular studies is only allowed here and there “b’akrai”. Mechaber and rema, nosei keilik bring none who argue. The rashba banned all secular studies until age 40. What people did in europe to go to university not to make parnosa, but just to be educated, was flat out assur.November 20, 2021 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #2031138ujmParticipant
I recall another big taaina against Steinsaltz was that he printed his Shas with different pagination than the standard Daf.November 21, 2021 12:42 am at 12:42 am #2031151HaLeiViParticipant
UJM, that’s the kind of taana you only use against someone you already don’t like.November 21, 2021 5:00 am at 5:00 am #2031161
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