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farby, you are really looking at very superficial issues. You seem to consider Daf Yomi a biggest modern accomplishment of modernity.
Avira> he was not in the top tier of influencers among the already religious.
True, but not a reason to dismiss. We have currently “6 mln” Jews or somewhat Jews in USA (*), of which only 2 mln are on a projectory to survive (with increasing progeny). Is losing 4 mln not a huge tragedy? Is not saving any of them a huge things?! Most shuls do not have this on their radar. Consider late 19th/early 20th century when so many shuls (I guess except yours) had pushkas for EY, even if a small number were actually going there, so many were involved. When I was doing genealogical research, I found info about one relative on wedding lists in a newspaper, listing people who donated to settlers in EY. At which wedding did you recently see people donating for saving Jews in US, Europe, Tel Aviv, Ukraine, Russia?
Why are we playing gadlus Olympics? Who cares who contributed more to Yiddishkeit than whom?
Thing is this. We can all get along. But there are certain elements within our communities that we have to fight against. And if we want to stay as Torah Jews we cannot just stand idly by.
Daf Yomi certainly is one of the major accomplishments of modernity.
Fight against what? Fight against reform and conservative, of course, they are going against Hashem every single day. But you won’t convince the radical mishichists that the Lubavitcher Rebbe isn’t physically alive. They won’t listen to me or to anyone of you, they are stubborn in their opinion. And you and I have problems with it. But the most we can do is to uselessly start fighting about it. Which ends up with no solution.
Fact: We disagree with each other
Another Fact: We won’t get anywhere by playing gadlus games
Another Fact: Only Hashem knows who were the top Yidden post-war.If anyone has a kashya on one of the facts please reply.
Thank You.People can and appropriately do judge which are the greater rabbonim.
There is a time and place for evaluating and understanding who the roshei revavos alfei yisroel are. Adhering to gedolei yisroel is the road to both national and personal success. It is the only way for the mesorah to be perpetuated, because even though much is written down, the aynay ha’eidah are the ones who transmit the body of torah tradition in its proper understanding and application. If we were to say that the “speaker rabbis” are links in that unbroken chain, we would be doing a disservice to the future lf torah in klal yisroel.
Not everyone who is prominent is a gadol, nor is everyone who influences irreligious jews even on a relatively large scale (90% aee still not frum).
I’m only mentioning the lubavitcher rebbe’s status because it’s been claimed that he’s this messianic figure of biblical proportions. I wanted to show how this is myopic and false. You can’t make massive claims about the lubavitcher rebbe and then accuse someone of “gedolim olympics” if they point out why this isn’t true.
I take back what I say from before (not to mean that it is not true, but I think it’s wiser to keep the arguments on a low key and not stir it).
My point now is: Yes, we do end up judging gedolim and Tzadikim. But that’s just what our eyes see and what our ears hear. Only Hashem knows the full truth. And everyone has different opinions on this matter.
So everyone know: that is their opinion, I may have a different opinion, and you may have a 3rd opinion. Doesn’t mean it’s Emes V’yatziv. My opinion isn’t either Emes V’yatziv. I think it is, but I don’t know for sure.And can we forget about the fact that some chabadnicks think their rebbe is Moshiach? Just put that aside, and look at the real Lubavitch. All the bad stuff you all are saying about Lubavitch is (they believe their rebbe is) Moshiach Moshiach Moshiach Moshiach. Lubavitchers long for Moshiach (whoever it is) all the time, as you are meant to, but without the mishichsts problem, you wouldn’t be able to find so many other ‘big’ problems with Chabad.
And, if you know it’s a mishigas, then why go so crazy about it? They aren’t taking thousands of yidden and making them run around with yellow flags and then they believe in it. When the word Lubavitch comes up, suddenly, it’s mishichists. Why?
V’im Tomar, “it’s a very bad and radical idea that must be dealt with,” tell me how exactly you plan on dealing with it? (I hope I’m not stirring the flames, don’t call me a hypocrite 😉“And, if you know it’s a mishigas, then why go so crazy about it? They aren’t taking thousands of yidden and making them run around with yellow flags and then they believe in it. When the word Lubavitch comes up, suddenly, it’s mishichists. Why?”
because, as I have said before, some people live in places where there actually are thousands of yellow flags. Some of us have conversations over and over with mashichists and never find out that there are people who disagree with them. They are outspoken and not always stable or rational but it’s all we have. I was very surprised to read some of the things posted by a handful of lubavitchers that opposed many of the inappropriate aspects. More along the lines of our Australian team here. The problem, which I have also said before, is that you all are not doing nearly enough (if anything at all) to speak out against it. You should be rvery vocal about their chillul Hashem, about their misinformation and about the way they speak for you. Your silence is baffling, honestly, considering the damage they seem to be doing. Which is one of the reasons I always assume you didn’t really disagree with them. Because if you did, why would you let it go on this big, this loud, and this detrimentally.
I hope that gives you some clarity
TS, if you’d like to see the non-messianic issues that have been raised about neo-chabad, there are other threads on here where we’ve had discussions of such things as negating the mitzvah of sleeping in a sukkah, shalosh seudos, public display menoras with a bracha haven’t been talked about yet, but they should be (i might start a thread on this one)… teaching kabalah to people who don’t know aleph bais, tolerating the likes of steinsaltz, and many other issues that I’ll probably remember tomorrow after a good night’s sleep
Syag lachomacha:
“More along the lines of our Australian team here.”
Just wanted to say, since you think (and are probably right) that I am doing damage, that I am a teen, the only reason I’m on the Cr is because I had online school ( English, math science zzzzzzzzzzz) so I used this to have some fun. So when I make a good point, please consider it. But when I say something stupid, please remember how old I am.“I was very surprised to read some of the things posted by a handful of lubavitchers that opposed many of the inappropriate aspects. More along the lines of our Australian team here.”
I was saying that the australian team was opposed to the inappropriate aspects.
syag the “australian team” are a group of chabad bochurim. Every time there was a good point raised by you, avira or shimon, ujm extra we would ask at a farbreingen the questions. we didn’t do nothing but we definetly didnt respond to comments when answers were clearly not wanted. Some people here legit want answers and some people here like shteching. The issue is that except for avira all of you are old timers. all of the “australian team” are young bochurim still finding their derech in avoidas hashem. You have a better chance changing our mind then us changing your minds because of the age gap(not the positions). P.S. I was told that the issue with the CR is that nobody wants your answers except to shtech your answers. I also like to shtech (even tho I’m not good at it) and i need to stop sometimes mitzad ahavas yisroel. if we have legit questions and we want answers then we should present questions or answers in a friendly manner. P.s. does anyone actually see tags
another thing is that lubavitchers dont go on YWN they have their own news sites like chabad.org news anash.org chabad.info lubavitcher.com and the most popular collive
farby -Most of us are well aware that you are a group of bochurim and I assume others also knew you were getting your responses from elsewhere. It’s just kind of obvious. My point was that your answers are not what many of us get from Chabad in the communities where we live so you don’t seem to understand how prevelent the misinformation is. Here are a couple direct responses to a few of your points tho:
You have a bad habit to say someone “doesn’t want answers they are just shtuching” when you don’t like the question. Trust me, that isn’t what has been going on here in these threads, try reading some old ones for shtuching, you just don’t want to hear that.
Avirah unfortunately adds his bias into his answers. His shtuching is a lack of ability to seperate personal feelings from fact, but it isn’t to shtuch. Meaning, he is expressing his disapproval of the things he is listing, but he is listing things he has legitimately learned and experienced from living as a chabadnik (if I am remembering his story correctly)
What you reallllllly don’t want to hear, but you kinda proved it yourself in your extra post, is that you are the ones who come to shtuch. You say things that you know go against what we know as truth and then you call us haters, bashers and shtuchers for responding. I find it a pretty sick game, but am most offended by the way (over the years) chabad activists have come here seemingly to make a rukus thinking we all are ignorant haters who make stuff up and have no clue, and then when you find out it isn’t true you 1) pretend you didn’t start up 2) pretend we are hateful for defending Torah 3) pretend we are just shtuching when you don’t have an answer.
I have a lot of respect for you guys down under, I am glad you don’t live in the land of the yellow flags, but please take heart of some of the comments you have been hearing, just store them, it will make achdus easier for you in the future.
I probably forgot something but up here it’s time for carpool…
So my community seems to be on the other end of the spectrum from Syag’s. The Chabad shuls are well integrated with the rest of the frum community, the rabbonim generally work together on major communal issues, and I have never seen a yellow flag or heard “Yechi” around here.
One question I have about Chabad culture and achdus in general – it seems from my perspective that Chabad gives very little weight to gedolim and Jews outside of Chabad in chinuch. I’ve heard drashos in my shul that bring stories of Lubavitch rebbes, and one of my young children’s favorite gedolim stories is R’ Schneur Zalman of Liadi and the miser who would only offer an old green copper coin. But even in the well integrated Chabad community here, in drashos, stories, and publications, I really only see Chabad rebbes or Jews mentioned (and gedolim who pre-date Chabad). Why is there no mention of non-Chabad gedolim and Jews?
Excellent post, and if I may jump on that without hijacking it …
A neighbor who is lubavitch came to my house for something and did not recognize the gedolim who’s pictures I have in my living room. I also mentioned the dayan in the city by name and they did not recognize that name either. I mean he is a main posek and the dayan of the city. Not a glimmer of recognition. I am NOT asking for explanation (save that for Avrum), I am wanting to know if me saying that to you will be then called “shtuching”.Achdus, unity is not always recommended. The convention of 1866 in Michalovce (Nagymihaly, place in Hungary that time) caused the excommunication of the reform movement from the orthodox when they denied following the Shulchan Aruch. The Maharam Shik interpreted emes vehashalom ahovu, first emes then shalom. Truth must come before peace. They applied hibodlu mitoch haeida hara, separate yourself from the bad group. Ein shalom omar Hashem lerashaim, no peace says Hashem to the wicked. When it comes to the orthodox, there are many ways of serving Hashem, so it should not matter how.
Reb Eliezer I have a feeling that is a completely diffrent case. Reform is not a way of serving hashem
Syag, give me a second
>What you reallllllly don’t want to hear, but you kinda proved it yourself in your extra post, is that you are the ones who come to shtuch
?
didn’t I make it obvious that we also have this issue.“A neighbor who is lubavitch came to my house for something and did not recognize the gedolim who’s pictures I have in my living room”
we have nothing against other gedoilim (not including…) but we do tend to know about our personal Rebbes because they are our rebbes. There are enough non lubavitchers to know about other gedoilim. i do think its important to educate ones children on other gedoilim but i do think its more important for LUBAVITCHER children to be educated more on their rebbes mainly because of the ideology of chabad and their understanding of a godol.
>It’s just kind of obvious.
I wasn’t trying to hide anything.
What syag and avram (and myself) are saying is that there is an inordinate amount of chabad-centricism, much more than in other groups, wherein other gedolim are completely ignored and unheard-of.
Any satmar yingel can rattle off a list of rebbes who were not satmar, and they know there was a rav aharon kotler and a rav moshe feinstein. So can a bobover, or a litvishe, who can name many chasidishe rebbes. The only times (rarely) I’ve heard chabad speak about other rabbis, it’s only been about how they met the lubavitcher rebbe, or were related to chabad in some way. They also only mention rav Moshe, the satmar rov, rav chaim brisker (who some mistakenly call the brisker rov, a name used for his son rav yitzchok zeev) or rabbi yoshe ber Soloveitchik; I’ve never heard them mention the steipler, chazon ish, rav shlomo zalman, rav elyashiv, rav aharon kotler, or anyone else.
“A neighbor who is lubavitch came to my house for something and did not recognize the gedolim who’s pictures I have in my living room”
The thing is, that nowadays almost every Rosh Yeshiva is considered a gadol, and there are hundreds if not thousands of them, and they are pretty hard to keep track of (i’m seriously not trying to offend anyone).
Please explain what you mean by “a city of thousands of yellow flags.” I know you mean mishichists, but which city has that many mishichists if it’s not tzfas?
I feel very sorry and am bothered that many non-lubavitchers get the feeling that all lubavitchers act like the ones you see. I can understand as people tend to judge one and assume all is like one. But Lubavitcher Rabbonim can’t openly oppose it. There is a difference between silent disagreement and open disagreement. If it’s open disagreement, lubavitchers will end up getting into fights, and just make things get worse. Let’s say R’ Moshe Kotlarksy would openly speak out agaisnt them at the Kinus Hashluchim. There are some mishichists who are shluchim, and they won’t be happy. They won’t respect him anymore. They’ll maybe even break off from the Shluchim office. Who knows? But it will only higher the flames, not lower them. I think eventually they will come to reality, and realize, that they are the ones with the mishigas. And I myself never got an answer from them, they just don’t respond, but we all know it’s a problem with their mental health that didn’t let them even acknowledge the fact that the rebbe passed away. It’s not a l’chatchila situation, but nobody is perfect, and no segment of klal yisrael is perfect, and every community has it’s ups and downs.” There are enough non lubavitchers to know about other gedoilim. ”
this has got to be the most twisted thing you have ever posted here.
syag probably
I edited this further but Hashem erased it so consider yourself lucky
“The thing is, that nowadays almost every Rosh Yeshiva is considered a gadol, and there are hundreds if not thousands of them, and they are pretty hard to keep track of (i’m seriously not trying to offend anyone).”
I have heard this bizarre response before and I barely know what to make of it. Do you have any idea how silly, disrespectful and ungrounded it is? Seriously. I can’t even break it down for you if you are too oblivious to see it yourself. Not trying to offend anyone? how bout the talmidei chochomim, gedolim, gaonim themselves who you kinda brush off as if you are actually qualified.
TS, perhaps if moshe Kotlarsky would indeed make such remarks, ruffle some feathers…the shluchim who you mention would takeh leave, and make chabad a healthier community? Would the “antis” miss the messianics? Wouldn’t distancing themselves from the supposed “fringes” strengthen the community and show what they “actually” believe, that the messianics are a small but vocal and cooky minority?
Or, the alternatives are that the “antis” don’t think it’s such a big deal if many believe in the mesiahood of the lubavitcher rebbe, or if they accept atzmus ideology.
Yet another alternative is that “anti” isn’t really all that anti, and that there’s a subtle distinction between those who proclaim the messiah’s reign openly and those who believe it’s best to hide it until he returns and redeems them.
I’m inclined to think it’s the latter.
“I feel very sorry and am bothered that many non-lubavitchers get the feeling that all lubavitchers act like the ones you see.”
well if that’s who we see, and you don’t take responsibility to tell people they are wrong, how can you possibly have taanas on the people around them?
“I can understand as people tend to judge one and assume all is like one.”
No. Not leaving that one. Don’t put the ‘judging all based on one’ game out there. You yourself just admitted that it is communities. Many communities, outspoken individuals, chabad houses around the world and very public speakers saying some very not okay things. Don’t tell me I’m judging everyone to be like one.
“But Lubavitcher Rabbonim can’t openly oppose it.”
Yes they can. And they should. There are people spewing kfira and avoda zara in your name. You don’t think it’s a problem?
“If it’s open disagreement, lubavitchers will end up getting into fights, and just make things get worse.”
Buddy, you can’t make things worse
I was trying to explain why we don’t know every gadol! I went to a litvishe yeshiva when I was younger, and I know my stuff. Of course I know the Gedolei Hador, I’ve heard of Rav Moshe Feinstein & Rav Nosson Tzvi And Rav Ahron Kotler & Rav Malkiel Kotler & Rav Chaim Kanievsky & Rav Dovid Feinstein & Rav Reuven Feinstein & Rav Sholom Kamenetzky & Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky & Rav Gifter & Rav Elyashiv & Rav Shteiman & Rav Yerucham Olshein & Rav Avigdor Miller & R’ Akiva Eiger & Rav Boruch Ber Liebowitz & Rav Dov Laundau & Rav Chaim Ozer & Rav Pinchas Scheinberg & Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein etc. the list continues… They are all tremendous talmidei chachamim, gaonim, and gedolim.
But the thing you must understand is, that most Lubavitcher kids go to Lubavitcher Yeshivas, and there they focus on the Lubavitcher rebbe’s approach to things. It’s not a thing they focus so much on. And in the Yeshiva I went to, and in many other yeshivas, you barely hear any stories or any recognition about the lubavitcher rebbeim. You hear about the klausenberger rebbe, satmar, belz, ger, bobov, breslov, and more, but lubavitch is barely a thing. Tell me how many times you’ve seen he Lubavitcher Rebbe on a gedolim wall? Your going to say that we don’t follow the lubavitcher rebbe and he isn’t our mani focus. So too for the lubavitcher schools. They aren’t putting any gedolim down.
And in fact, in some litvishe schools, they put the lubavitcher rebbe down!Avira Chabad has enough politics and fights and they don’t see a point in having more. the rambam says that if someone’s not going to listen to you, your not meant to tell them off.
> “but he is listing things he has legitimately learned and experienced from living as a chabadnik (if I am remembering his story correctly)”
what do you mean
>Buddy, you can’t make things worse
I disagree
>And in fact, in some litvishe schools, they put the lubavitcher rebbe down!
i can attest that litvishe bochuim have come up to me and mocked the Rebbe in disgusting ways that they would never say about other gedoilim or even poshiter yidden.
“i can attest that litvishe bochuim have come up to me and mocked the Rebbe in disgusting ways that they would never say about other gedoilim or even poshiter yidden.”
I won’t defend them, but I will answer to it. When people are exposed for years to meshichists versions of their rebbe and lubavitch etc and there are no “real” lubavitchers speaking against it and denying it then how do youblame them? Honestly, you should be agreeing with us.
Second, I don’t think you realize how awful some of your comments are (as I’ve mentioned above) so you obviously are judging with a bias.
i can attest that litvishe bochuim have come up to me and mocked the Rebbe in disgusting ways that they would never say about other gedoilim or even poshiter yidden.
Not really a tayna, when, as I believe you alluded to above, Lubavich holds some of the greatest Litvishe gedolim in severe contempt.
Avria, If Rav Moshe Kotlarsky would do that and they would leave, then that would be a very embarrassing split in the Chabad Community, and they would still call themselves chabad and follow the chabad minhagim and consider themselves shluchim. They would still wave the yellow flags. All that will help is the statement lubavitchers can use is: “They don’t represent us.” But we can already us that statement, because they don’t represent me or the opinion and will of the rebbe. I don’t want to get back into the discussion of did the rebbe oppose the people calling him Moshiach or not, but as long as you can interpret a few words he said which could mean many different things, somebody will interpret it to mean something that he chose it to mean, the Rebbe didn’t mean that, it’s just what they think he meant. I could promise (since it’s it’s assur to promise, but it’s as if) the Rebbe would not want the mishichists acting or believing like they do. He is resting in the Ohel in queens, anyone who wants to visit is mor then welcome, ad that itself is a proof that the Rebbe is now in Shamayim, in Gan Eden.
Do you seriously still believe that all lubavitchers at least secretly think he is still alive? Like, permit me for my use of words, but what are you smoking? What a bizarre thing to hear. You just assume something like that? And you have no proof whatsoever that all lubavitchers still think he is alive but just hide it.
In summary: Them splitting wouldn’t help anything, since they’ll still think they are the real lubavitchers.It’s a real rachmanus on Klal Yisrael (and lubavitch included) that this whole mishichist idea is going on.
It’s really sad, and when exactly does anyone think it’s gonna stop?Why is there no mention of non-Chabad gedolim and Jews?
Because they are unimportant (at best) in Chabad. That is the blunt truth.
Regarding why it isn’t a two way street – it’s not because Litvishe focus on their own more. In a Litvish yeshiva, i don’t think you’ll find many pictures of any chasidish gedolim. But you will find many types of Litvishe – rav moshe was immensely different from the chazon ish, for instance. They also stress Hungarian gedolei yisroel like rav akiva eiger, the chasam sofer, etc..rav hirsch is mentioned too.
a litvish boy knows about different types of chasidim, and knows about their poskim. They learn avnei nezer, sefas emes on kodshim, eglei tal, and others. You will definitely hear Litvishe rosh yeshivos quote rav tzadok, the shem mishmuel, tanya, kozhnitzer maggid, and others. Not a lot, but you’ll hear it.
For chabad to ignore other chasidim and litvishe would be like a litvishe yeshiva to only talk about rav moshe feinstein all day and no one else, not the chofetz chaim either – just rav moshe.
Chabad boys don’t know who rav vosner, rav menasheh klein, rav chatzkel roth, or tons of other chasidishe gedolei torah vehoraah. They’re being sequestered and cut off from the klal, and it’s sad. It’s also supremacist.
Also, another reason for the rest of klal yisroel ignoring the lubavitcher rebbe was because many gedolim did not hold of him as a legitimate gadol. They ignore rabbi kook as well, and mostly ignore rabbi yoshe ber Soloveitchik for similar reasons. It isn’t common that gedolim argue to the point where one side holds that the other is illegitimate. Rav moshe and the satmar rov had intense disagreements, but they had a lot of mutual respect as well.
The yeshivos wish to exclude rabbinic figures that are themselves controversial.
They aren’t being taught to be disrespectful. Some mesivta rebbeim will let slip their feelings about lubavitch at a relaxed moment in school, and young people are quick to react and take things to the next level. It isn’t coming from the top down – chabad supremacy however, is institutional.
“I was trying to explain why we don’t know every gadol!”
and you are forgetting (so did I) that my comment was that they didn’t even know who the rav of the community is.
To clarify, i didn’t say that the antis believe he is alive. It is my understanding that they believe he is the messiah, actually passed away, but must return at some point to finish his work and complete the redemption he started at the self described “beis hamikdash” at 770.
TS, my proof is both from the reluctance of the mainstream to distance itself absolutely, communally from the meshichisten, as well as from my experience talking with antis who never are able to bring themselves to say “no” when asked if they think the lubavitcher rebbe was the messiah. They will say “anyone CAN be” “what difference does it make if he is…if he is, will you be upset? We just want moshiach whoever he may be” or other attempts at misdirection.
The answer is “no”. He is not the Messiah, nor will he be, because he is no longer alive and that is the mesorah.
Please tell me how in the world some gedolim can hold others are not gedolim? Gedolim are Gedolim. Gedolim don’t look for honor and kavod, they run away from kavod. I would be really surprised to hear that gedolim just say that ‘the Lubavitcher Rebbe isn’t a Gadol’ just because they disagree.
Avira, I knew who was Rav Vosner was, and he is in fact chassidish. The Yehsiva I was in defnitely had pictures of Chassidishe Rebbes, and they were still considered gedolim.
I do have to admit, that a regular Lubvitcher Boy from Oholei Torah in Crown Heights won’t know that many Gedolim. You need to know where they are coming from. All they see from the Litvishe World is misnagdus, and sadly they think all litivsh ‘hate’ Lubavitch. Now, I don’t think any of you ‘hate’ Lubavitch, even though you have some bad feelings towards them, but the way lubavitcher kids see it is they always openly oppose lubavitchers, and it grows bad feelings towards the litvish.
Now, I’m not saying that they should be, but that is what is happening. If anyone has any solutions to this ‘massive’ problem, then please reply without jumping to conclusions based on the fact I haven’t answered anyone since I’m not on this 24/6.The more I hear you guys talk the more I am convinced that you are being taught that litvish hate you to keep you from getting close to us. You are taught that we hate you so that you will always be defensive against us, seperate and distanced from us and “on guard”, feeling “better” and needing to protect yourself from us while enlightening us. You are taught that we hate you to lure you into a place where you will not be in danger of hearing our questions because you have been taught they are attacks. You are taught that we hate you to keep you from having your own questions about all the things you are not learning. I had a fleeting idea of it, but you have really spelled it out. How sad. How unbelievably unfortunate and manipulative.
“Please tell me how in the world some gedolim can hold others are not gedolim?”
ummm, you did it above. You do it all the time. You have even built a sect who teaches that our gedolim and rebbe’s are just commonfolk, there are, as you put it, “thousands of them. It’s pretty hard to keep track”. Unlike your rebbe… And you don’t chap the problem with that?
“I would be really surprised to hear that gedolim just say that ‘the Lubavitcher Rebbe isn’t a Gadol’ just because they disagree.”
me too. in fact disagreeing with someone has never been a reason to say they aren’t a gadol. it was cute that you worded it that way to give the illusion perhaps that the gedolim were so petty but that was not their tayna.
Please tell me how in the world some gedolim can hold others are not gedolim? Gedolim are Gedolim.
I don’t understand the question. Is there some list of gedolim somewhere, written by Eliyahu Hanavi, which nobody can disagree with?
I would be really surprised to hear that gedolim just say that ‘the Lubavitcher Rebbe isn’t a Gadol’ just because they disagree.
Wouldn’t that depend on what it is they disagree with?
because what other gedoilim accomplished was mainly during their life
Just another example of the myopic Chabad-centric mindset.
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