Where are the Manhigim?

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  • #610012

    yichusdik
    Participant

    A man was assaulted – with rocks, fists, thrown garbage, and more in a neighborhood whose residents and whose daytime denizens live their lives through the guidance of their manhigim. He was a man who lives a similar lifestyle to those in the neighborhood, and he was there to visit relatives.

    He was wearing the wrong clothes.

    He said and did nothing to violate laws of modesty. He is a shomer Torah umitzvos. My goodness, even if wearing the wrong clothes is in this case considered a halachic transgression by this mob, Laav She’ein Bo Maaseh, eino Lokin Olov. One would expect such illustrious Torah scholars to be able to remember one of the simplest passages in Gemoro Makkos.

    He was wearing the wrong clothes.

    I’m sure it was the shababnikim, or Shabak instigators, or imported goyim from moldova. It was The ghost of Tommy Lapid come to condemn the community once again. It was the entire defensive line of the New England Patriots.

    He was wearing the wrong clothes.

    The people who attacked him don’t have conversations without guidance from their manhigim. They determine where to shop, where to daven, what side of the street to walk on based on the guidance of their manhigim.

    It is beyond logic and reason to believe that deciding to near lynch this man could happen without any of the perpetrators having some inkling that it was an appropriate action from someone he trusts.

    He was wering the wrong clothes.

    And in the aftermath? Silence.

    Shtikoh Kehodo’oh.

    #965800

    akuperma
    Participant

    The rabbanim are telling people to be calm and engage in only non-violent protests. Given that the other side is threatening mass arrest (tens of thousands thrown in prison – think of the last time someone threw tens of thousands in Jews in prison, and you understand its a sensitive matter), most people are showing restraint. Since the crisis may be resolved amicably, the rabbanim don’t want hotheads to provoke matters.

    Of course, in three years, after the first “aktion” against a yeshiva (if it comes to that), I suspect that hareidim who have chosen to serve in the IDF will have to decide between being zionist patriots or being part of the hareidi community.

    And they weren’t just wearing “wrong” clothes. They were wearing the uniform of the oppressor. This is somewhat worse than wearing a Yankees cap in Brooklyn in the 1950s – closer to wearing a button saying you’re a member of the Japan Friendship Society in January 1942 – except “war” hasn’t been declared yet, emphasis on “yet”.

    #965801

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Well said Yichusdik +1000000

    #965802

    ziplock
    Member

    The story on the main site says the kids were only yelling at him and did not touch him.

    And some of these kids don’t listen to any rabbis. They are out for a chill and couldn’t care less if the rabbis are against it. The rabbis can (and do) talk from today until tomorrow against it, and these hang-out kids don’t care or listen. There’s nothing the rabbis can do. So, please, do not blame them as they bear absolutely zero responsibility. No more than you do. These kids are as apt to listen to you as they are to the rabbis who they do not take direction from despite what you may think.

    #965803

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The people who attacked him don’t have conversations without guidance from their manhigim. They determine where to shop, where to daven, what side of the street to walk on based on the guidance of their manhigim.

    And their Manhigim tell them what they want to hear, or they stop being their Manhigim. Case in point is Rav Shteinman, who got the same items thrown at him due to “supporting” Nachal Charaidi, and is continuing to be marginalized in the current “draft” crisis.

    It is like many other government laws. They are on the books assuming the government agrees not to enforce them.

    #965804

    Oh Shreck!
    Participant

    OOHH!!

    This will be a hotie!! Guaranteed!

    Anyways, to this most important question “Where are the Manhigim?”. I humbly must admit, I’m right here. Mods won’t allow me to specify “WHERE” I am, but I’m right here.

    OK, to get a bit serious (what in the world is that?), I too took a glance at those clips. I too was disgusted, mortified, nauseated, as any sensible human would be. But let’s not be ????? ??? on our holy nation, these were not the ones who follow leaders, a mere glance at the clips confirm that. These were the empty, wild, boorish ones with way too much time and unused energy on their hands, a true ??? they haven’t channeled them into better use (???? ????????). No, the vast majority were in the Shuls learning and davening, as proper Jew ought to do.

    No need to denigrate to devout, upright ones who do follow the true Manhigim, are guided by their clear, lucid counsel, their bright shining luminescence. Those shy away from any sort of violence, disorder. Those have and utilize self control, they think first, mob and peer power won’t effect them.

    No, Shtikoh is not Kehodo’oh, these ones have no leaders, unfortunately. These are guided totally by their own whims and crowd/peer pressure, it’s quite obvious that these are not the thinking type. And sadly, talking to these won’t accomplish much.

    #965805

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Ziplock, please, there’s video, there’s the man’s own testimony, there’s the testimony of police, there’s eyewitnesses. He was assaulted, chased, insulted, had things thrown at him.

    “There’s nothing the Rabbis can do”

    That’s the saddest comment I ever read on YWN. If there’s nothing the Rabbis can do, in a community so directed, so restricted, so regimented, then the system is broken.

    If these kids don’t listen to any Rabbis – which I do not believe – then there’s a much bigger problem than a chareidi guy walking through Mea Shearim in Madim that needs to be addressed.

    Don’t be a sheep.

    akuperma – you really want me to believe that the illegal, immoral, contra-halachic actions we are seeing are a result of what MAY occur three years from now? Seriously? And to you as well, I have to ask. If the Manhigim are truly telling people to restrain themselves, and they are not being listened to, isn’t there something terribly wrong with the society that needs to be addressed?

    #965806

    Toi
    Participant

    GAW- thats not accurate. the entire litvishe oilam looks to R shteinamn for hanhagah. the chalmis and chassidim dont. Its not that he’s being marginalized, his supporters simply arent as vocal. another point to consider is that while R aaron leib doesnt campaign against yichidim going to nachal chareidi, he’s very much against aplan to draft all the bnei yeshivos en masse. understand the distinction.

    #965807

    Sam2
    Participant

    Akuperma: Rav Shach used to stand up for his grandson in his army uniform. There are many stories of soldiers in their uniforms approaching and being well-received by R’ Elyashiv. If IDF soldiers someday terrorize Yeshivos, we can deal with that then. But for now, there is no reason to assault someone (verablly or physically) in an army uniform.

    #965808

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW- thats not accurate. the entire litvishe oilam looks to R shteinamn for hanhagah. the chalmis and chassidim dont.

    Or the Briskers, the Mea Shearimnicks, or anyone else who attended or supported the NYC protests. Interestingly, it seems that one of the main supporters of Rav Shteinman is Lakewood Yeshiva, who may have wanted to join the protests but did not due to Rav Shteinman’s P’sak.

    What is a “chalmis”?

    Its not that he’s being marginalized, his supporters simply arent as vocal.

    Part of being a Gadol is having Middos Tovos. The actions of the followers refect on whom they follow. Also see below.

    another point to consider is that while R aaron leib doesnt campaign against yichidim going to nachal chareidi, he’s very much against aplan to draft all the bnei yeshivos en masse. understand the distinction.

    I’m not sure why that is relevant, but sure. To quote Rabbi Adlerstein from Cross Currents:

    #965809

    ziplock
    Member

    yichusdik: Tell me, does everyone in your shul and on in your neighborhood listen to the rabbi? Do none of them do things the rabbi is opposed to? Don’t be a sheep. Practically no rabbi today can control everyone. There are always outcasts who listen to no one. In your neighborhood as well. They don’t reflect badly on your rabbi anymore than these outcasts reflect on the rabbis in their neighborhood. They have no rabbis.

    #965810

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I count at least four unsubstantiated assumptions or misapplied concepts in the OP. Who can name them and/or find even more?

    #965811

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Toi: I’ll add to that that (due to some “inside information”) I don’t believe Bennett and even Lapid are interested in drafting the bnei yeshivos en masse. They expected this to be a starting point for negotiations. As of yet the Charaidi side refuses to come to the table, so they have to move forward with the current plan. Even so, it would be 5 years (IIRC) before a single bochur gets drafted, and a lot can change over 5 years.

    As I’ve told you before, if CV guys get pulled out of Yeshiva to join the army, the protesters will have many more backers. No one thinks that will happen, including Lapid.

    #965812

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I count at least four unsubstantiated assumptions or misapplied concepts in the OP. Who can name them and/or find even more?

    1: “He was wearing the wrong clothes.” Assuming he had spoken to his Posek/Rov who told him to join, he was certainly wearing the right clothes.

    It is said four times in the OP.

    #965813

    yichusdik
    Participant

    The difference is, Ziplock, that my Rabbis don’t direct a restrictive, regimented, and compliant society as do the Rabbis in Meah Shearim.

    My perspective is that being a Rabbi should be about being a guide, not a controller, but these communities disagree, and every element of daily life, including how to think, is mandated by their daas torah. so why wouldn’t this action be as well?

    When a community defines itself by its restrictiveness and compliance, it is easy to say – they aren’t “of us”. Its kind of curious, though, that the “pritzusdike women” get hounded out of the neighborhood, and, as you say, are “outcasts”, but I’ve never read about one of these (not so young) mazikim being turned out of their home and their neighborhood for such actions. Outcasts? Not so much.

    In fact R’ Hirsh from NK just announced he thought the mob attack was a good idea.

    #965814

    yichusdik
    Participant

    DY. I’ll grant that my diyuk on Makkos is no more than an interpretation that makes sense.

    There may be assumptions, but they are far from unsubstantiated.

    #965815

    Toi
    Participant

    GAW- chalmis means yerushalmis. satmar is included in chassidim. briskers, the actual family and following, shouldnt be counted as their own entity, as the actual family isnt large enough to impact anything, and the people who listen to them that dont belong to the actual mishpacha are yerushalmi anyways, for the most part. mea she’arimniks are eida/satmar. veiter included in the chalmi and satmar categories.

    my point about being michalek between a draft en masse and not protesting the yechidim was only made because you juxtaposed to the two. anyway, i think we agree for the most part, except that if you were here youd agree that lapids efforts are what they seem, not fantasy, and thats he’s making life a heck of alot harder for the bnei yeshivos, besides the draft issue. that tells me he means business.

    #965816

    yichusdik
    Participant

    And I should clarify. I don’t “blame” anyone for this outrage who either (a) didn’t perpetrate it or (b) didn’t incite it or (c) didn’t create an environment where his followers would see it as an OK or even positive thing to do. (Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?” comes to mind, for those of you who know your English history).

    #965817

    Feif Un
    Participant

    It’s disgusting. These people are like pigs. They stick out their feet (black hats and white shirts, sitting in yeshiva) to tell us, “Look, I’m kosher!”

    But internally, they don’t have what is needed. They need to live the Torah, not just learn it.

    #965818

    Wolfman
    Participant

    We can always count on a particular poster to compare Jews to Nazis. This time he had the restraint to only use code words. You are an obviously intelligent individual. Try making your points without trivializing the Holocaust.

    #965819

    its emes
    Member

    I too am disgusted by what took place yesterday to say the least…but can i ask a question – where are the manhigim of all the kids that are off the derech?? where are the manhigim off all the frum woman that dress inappropriately? where are the manhigim of all the people that don’t heed the call of the gedolim when it comes to any other issue??? i think it’s a pretty simple answer! the manhigim are where they are supposed to be – leading the klal!! people choose to ignore the manhigim! they could say and threaten whatever they want but there has to be a receiving end! find me one gadol that recommends and suggests such behavior???

    #965820

    ziplock
    Member

    yichusdik: Please provide substantiation for your unsubstantiated assumptions that these kids a) have a rabbi b) listen to any rabbi c) that the rabbis haven’t warned them against this behavior and d) were physical when reports indicate they were only verbal.

    #965821

    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“There’s nothing the Rabbis can do”

    That’s the saddest comment I ever read on YWN. If there’s nothing the Rabbis can do, in a community so directed, so restricted, so regimented, then the system is broken.

    If these kids don’t listen to any Rabbis – which I do not believe – then there’s a much bigger problem than a chareidi guy walking through Mea Shearim in Madim that needs to be addressed.”

    Your hypocrisy and hatred to Charedim is astounding!

    Do you hate the Israeli Gov. or the American Gov. for every crime committed in their country? Yet, you blame the Charedi leaders for every action of a “Charedi”. The leaders of the Charedim don’t even have any police powers like Govs. do.

    Govs. are much more responsible for crimes committed because their liberal laws don’t deter much crime.

    #965823

    Why don’t the gedolim put out pashkevils and letters that decry these attacks- it would be such an easy way for them to distance the mainstream chareidi tzibur from these kanoim.

    #965824

    yichusdik
    Participant

    ziplock – a – not all of them are kids. And though you may know more about Meah Shearim than I do, Each element of the population there has a manhig or several of them. b – see my post above about the saddest post i ever read. c – R Hirsch just came out publicly applauding the behavior d – I look at several sources when I look at the news. I don’t rely only on sanitized versions. You can see the video on several Israeli news sites. You can read about the accounts of his family, of the police, and witnesses on several sites across the spectrum politically.

    #965825

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health – see my post above regarding who is to “blame”. Not the whole chareidi velt.

    #965826

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    except that if you were here youd agree that lapids efforts are what they seem, not fantasy, and thats he’s making life a heck of alot harder for the bnei yeshivos, besides the draft issue. that tells me he means business.

    This thread deserves to be derailed, so…

    Lapids efforts to “make life harder” on beni Yeshivos stem from those Beni Yeshivos having previously been living off funding from the government. The Israeli people (as elected by Lapid) have had their lives made harder (in their opinion) by the dispersal of funds to “Charaidim” (in the form of laws that are shaped by the Charaidi partied to help their own, for example housing subsidies based on years married instead of years working or army service). Remember all of the “social justice” protests? Those were basically protests by regular tax paying Israelis against the continued increased funding to Charaidim & settlements, and Lapid winning all those votes is due to his promise (which he seems to be trying to keep) to refocus that funding towards army vets & regular Israelis (for good or bad). Add to that the actions of the “Baryonim” such as these in Mea Shearim and those in Bais Shemesh, and you get a population that wants to remove some of the Charadi political power, which is why Lapid could have never entered into a coilition with Gimmel (and was very Emesdik in saying so).

    Now the populace via Lapid see an opportunity to “shift” the balance back to what would be without the Charaidi parties pushing support. V’Harayah that (IMHO) “beni yeshivos” are not specifically targeted (as of yet) is that Neturei Karta & Satmar, who do not take funding from the government, are not affected by any of Lapid’s actions. So far, it is all about Gelt (sounds like a disagreement we have had earlier!). I can’t feel too bad about removal of subsidies from anyone, even in a socialist country.

    Once you take that into account, the deferment of the 1800 & the long time table involved show me Lapid does not want to (forcibly) pull guys out of yeshiva. He does want to stop funding them and redirect such funding towards others.

    #965827

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Feif, what makes you think they’re sitting in yeshivah?

    #965828

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yichusdik, it wasn’t a diyuk, it was a misapplication. That’s one. Any more?

    GAW, cute.

    #965829

    “Your hypocrisy and hatred to Charedim is astounding!

    Do you hate the Israeli Gov. or the American Gov. for every crime committed in their country? Yet, you blame the Charedi leaders for every action of a “Charedi”. The leaders of the Charedim don’t even have any police powers like Govs. do.”

    I’ll jump in here. I believe the OP’s point was that Charedim are utterly devoted to their rabbonim and will follow any directive without question, while American and Israeli citizens have no such concept of daas Torah with regard to their respective governments. In fact, there are countless detractors and protesters of both governments. Furthermore, the threat of cherem or not getting a good shidduch is far more effective in regulating the behavior of Charedim than any police power.

    #965830

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: Do I win? 😉

    #965831

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    the OP’s point was that Charedim are utterly devoted to their rabbonim and will follow any directive without question

    He must have also meant that we can also deduce that any action done by a chareidi is with the rabbonim’s consent.

    We must conclude, then, that the same rabbonim who must have told that soldier to enlist, and to enter MS in uniform, must have been the ones who told these guys to beat him up.

    #965832

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    GAW, yes, an all expense paid trip to MS in an IDF uniform. 🙂

    Seriously, though, I am disturbed that the possibility of a large decrease in talmud Torah doesn’t see to bother you.

    I think “chalmis” is short for “Yerushalmis”.

    #965833

    Health
    Participant

    jewishfeminist02 -“I’ll jump in here. I believe the OP’s point was that Charedim are utterly devoted to their rabbonim and will follow any directive without question,”

    This is ridiculous. Your assumption that the leaders have more control over their populace than Govs. is based on your bias, not on any reality.

    “Furthermore, the threat of cherem or not getting a good shidduch is far more effective in regulating the behavior of Charedim than any police power.”

    This is only true if you’re from that group. More stereotyping.

    When one Chassidus fights with another, do you think Cherem or Not marrying into the other group deters the fight?

    You must be from outside the Frum Yeshivish world because you have No clue how things work in it.

    #965834

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Seriously, though, I am disturbed that the possibility of a large decrease in talmud Torah doesn’t see to bother you.

    It does bother me. Obviously I’m not qualified to decide which way is best, but I will note that the current system creates a huge decrease in Kavod HaTorah & Kavod Shomayim by non-Charaidim. Furthermore, I would not be certain that the Torah learned without subsidies will not be better that that which is learned now. As it says in Perkei Avos:

    ?? ??? ???? ?? ????: ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????, ???? ??? ????, ?????? ??? ???.

    It also says:

    ???? ????? ????: ????? ??? ???, ???? ???–?? ???? ???????; ??? ??????, ?? ???? ????. ??? ???, ???? ???–?? ????. ??? ???, ???? ???–????. ??? ???, ???? ???–???.

    P.S. What I’m doing is explaining the non-Charaidi side. As far as what will happen, Rav Shteinman’s approach as I quoted from Rabbi Adlerstein is to be passive. I would like to see a compromise/moderation of some sort (in the end, and I expect to), but only one that would be Al Pi Halacha & be Marbeh Kavod Shomayim.

    #965835

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why don't the Rabbonim enforce Tznius?

    I wonder if the poster Apushutayid would agree that this applies to this discussion as well.

    #965836

    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“Health – see my post above regarding who is to “blame”. Not the whole chareidi velt.”

    I realize who you were blaming. Now go back and read my post again.

    If you want to blame Hirsch and the NK for this because they concurred -then go ahead. This has nothing to do with the Charedi Rabbonim, no matter what you post!

    #965837

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And I should clarify. I don’t “blame” anyone for this outrage who either (a) didn’t perpetrate it or (b) didn’t incite it or (c) didn’t create an environment where his followers would see it as an OK or even positive thing to do. (Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?” comes to mind, for those of you who know your English history).

    The implication obviously being that the “manhigim” are guilty of one of the above.

    I think you should just come out and name who you think the guilty “manhigim” are.

    #965838

    No, we must conclude that either a) the rabbonim approved of the attack, or b) the Chareidim aren’t really so insistent on daas Torah as they claim to be.

    #965840

    ziplock
    Member

    No, we can only conclude that these kids don’t listen to Daas Torah or any rabbis for that matter, even though Chareidim do.

    #965841

    Toi
    Participant

    DY- well presented.

    GAW- i have no kochos to type out the response i just started and backspaced. suffice it to say that alot of what he’s doing targets nearly anyone religious, not just the chareidim, and that financial experts have already reported that the way he’s diverting money will put a sizable chunk of people below the poverty line, without any significant gains. lets rerail this thread, im tired.

    #965842

    WIY
    Member

    The Rabbonim have spoken in the past many times about not making violent protests. At this point it has become clear already from violent incidents that have happened in the last few years by groups called sicko-rikim and other vigilante groups that they choose to do what they want and answer only to themselves. These people are treif kanoyim who pretend that they act to defend what is right. Anyone with seichel and some Torah knowledge knows that these people are evil. They can’t be stopped within the community without starting a civil war. I suggest all you big talkers who think you know it all to keep it down. The Rabbanim can’t stop them without putting their lives at risk. These people have no problem beating up a Rav. They can only be stopped by the police.

    #965843

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    the Chareidim aren’t really so insistent on daas Torah as they claim to be.

    Again, generalizing. No, not “the Charedim”, just those alleged criminals.

    #965844

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ?? ??? ???? ?? ????: ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????, ???? ??? ????, ?????? ??? ???.

    Most b’nei Torah in E.Y. (according to relatives I’ve spoken to) don’t live at a much higher standard than that.

    #965845

    yichusdik
    Participant

    I’m focusing on those who did this and those who encouraged or enabled them, not the entire chareidi community. That would be ridiculous. So please, Health and others, keep the straw men in the cupboard.

    Looking at Mea Shearim as an example of a regimented, guided community, with many manhigim, and a particular way of life, I am troubled, deeply troubled by some of the responses here.

    When someone tells me that its the aimless, the young, those who won’t listen to guidance who perpetrate this, I first ask, are you sure? How are you sure?

    Then I wonder even more. Its clear that in a community where compliance is not mandated, where codes of conduct, dress, conversation, courting, davening, doing business are less defined, There will certainly be those, perhaps many, who do not follow “guidance”, but the nature of the guidance and the communities are less strict and more fluid.

    In this particular community, however, the guidance is defined, strict, and comprehensive. It includes EVERYONE, even the easy to blame youth. As I wrote above, this particular community has no problem evicting those who don’t comply with their standards of tzniyus. Why, if the posters above are right, and it is aimless youth who are involved, why are they not similarly removed from the community? I can only surmise that such actions as were perpetrated on this chayal are condoned, if not encouraged, by those who are listened to in this particular community.

    The only implication that is broader, beyond this community in my view is that when posters here are saying that there’s nothing the Rabbis can do, or that if the Rabbis spoke up their life would be in danger, the idea of manhigus through daas Torah is endangered not from the outside, but from within. Very troubling.

    #965846

    ziplock
    Member

    yichusdik: You keep repeating yourself. That doesn’t make your argument any less wrong.

    When someone tells me that its the aimless, the young, those who won’t listen to guidance who perpetrate this, I first ask, are you sure? How are you sure?

    How are you sure otherwise? You aren’t. You built up a tower of unsubstantiated assumptions.

    #965847

    yichusdik
    Participant

    DY, if you haven’t figured out by now, I most often write about concepts and movements, about zeitgeist and weltanschauung, not about this or that individual’s responsibility for act a or challenge b. In this case I am drawing attention to the inherent contradiction of that community’s action or inaction.

    Perhaps the real problem is that no one takes responsibility. The average Joes expect the Rabbis to exert some control as they do over most everything else in the community, but they dont. The Rabbis, I am told by several posters here, are too scared to do anything. (which I find hard to believe, but…) The perpetrators feel the overwhelming sentiment in their community if not outright guidance is compelling them to act in this way, so they do.

    In any case it is a truly broken dynamic.

    #965848

    WIY
    Member

    yichusdik

    I suggest you drive down there and talk some sense into these hooligans. Don’t be surprised if they knock you out break your ribs and shatter your car windshield. The only one who can stop them are those authorized and trained to use force, i.e. the police.

    #965849

    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“When someone tells me that its the aimless, the young, those who won’t listen to guidance who perpetrate this, I first ask, are you sure? How are you sure?

    Then I wonder even more. Its clear that in a community where compliance is not mandated, where codes of conduct, dress, conversation, courting, davening, doing business are less defined, There will certainly be those, perhaps many, who do not follow “guidance”, but the nature of the guidance and the communities are less strict and more fluid.

    The only implication that is broader, beyond this community in my view is that when posters here are saying that there’s nothing the Rabbis can do, or that if the Rabbis spoke up their life would be in danger, the idea of manhigus through daas Torah is endangered not from the outside, but from within. Very troubling.”

    I’m not going to quote your whole post, but your bigotry towards Charedim knows No bounds. Let me ask you this -in the Amish community where there is a strict dress code, which e/o must follow and now s/o commits a crime, do you also blame the Amish elders? Noone in the world would take your drivel seriously for a second if you did, but when it comes to Charedim all of a sudden e/o besides Charedim jump on the bandwagon of hate and bigotry.

    #965850

    musser zoger
    Participant

    Doesnt manhig have the same gematriya as gehinom?

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