Where are the Manhigim?

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  • #965851

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s a good thing, yichusdik, that your community has no problems or issues, allowing you the time to do lots of research (by way of posting on YWN and seeing the responses) and become quite the expert on other communities.

    #965852

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Since the individuals involved were not in yeshiva and love to fight, why not draft them!

    #965853

    jbaldy22
    Member

    I hate to say it but I agree with yichusdik (on a majority of his points) and there are some extremely delusional posters here. If you can’t admit that there is a serious problem with what happened in mea shearim and that every time something like this happens its a massive chillul hashem then hashem yiracheim. This attitude of their wrong so therefore anything we do must be right just sickens me.

    #965854

    writersoul
    Member

    mussar zoger: Really? I can’t think why…

    #965855

    rebdoniel
    Member

    We need achdut now. I wish it would be possible for us to stand together be yahad: shtreimels, platchige biberhats, srugies, fedoras, black suede, etc. Why can’t Jews agree to disagree, say elu ve elu, and move on? Will HKBH care at 120 if you ate from Triangle K or Badatz?

    #965856

    DaasYochid, in that case, I will assume that all of the heaps of criticism of the MO community expounded in the Coffee Room (not to mention the even more vitriolic criticism of Conservative, Reform, and Zionists) was written by people whose communities likewise are free from issues.

    #965857

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Jfem, apples and oranges. You can’t compare,criticism of a community to criticism of hashkafos.

    Anyhow, my main point was that yichusdik claims (or seems to) that he understands the dynamics of the MS community, and I’m very skeptical that he really does.

    #965858

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We need achdut now. I wish it would be possible for us to stand together be yahad: shtreimels, platchige biberhats, srugies, fedoras, black suede, etc.

    I totally agree.

    Why can’t Jews agree to disagree, say elu ve elu, and move on?

    Not everything is eilu v’eilu.

    Will HKBH care at 120 if you ate from Triangle K or Badatz?

    Yes.

    #965859

    DaasYochid, I will quote you your earlier statement:

    “It’s a good thing, yichusdik, that your community has no problems or issues, allowing you the time to do lots of research (by way of posting on YWN and seeing the responses) and become quite the expert on other communities.”

    You refer to communities, not hashkafas. YWN abounds with criticism of both.

    #965860

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health, I’ve got to call you on your utter irresponsibility. I’ve just reread everything I posted in this thread. The only time I used the word “chareidi” was to describe the VICTIM, and twice to say I’m not talking about the whole chareidi community. You have access to the same posts. you read them. You chose to make an accusation that is unfounded, unwarranted, and unsupported by my words.

    You can do better than that. Frankly straw men are the most pathetic way to win an argument…against yourself. Not menschlech.

    DY, maybe I don’t know the dynamics. I’m speculating. But I’m not blind, b’h. Maybe there’s something heilige and ehrliche about burning trash bins, flinging dirty diapers, cursing, calling people nazis, assaulting people. Someone is influencing these perpetrators. Its not the Shabak. Its not the hesderniks. Its not the Russian mafia. And the community/its leaders supposedly find themselves helpless when in other circumstances they find the capacity to act. I’m not buying.

    #965861

    WIY
    Member

    Yichusdik

    It’s hard to hear when your fingertips are shoved into your ear drums and you are busy yelling blah blah blah at the top of your lungs.

    #965862

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Jfem, once again: I am not criticizing his or any community. I am criticizing him for criticizing a community which he now admits to only be speculating about.

    #965863

    So where is the outrage for the rampant criticism of communities that are NOT charedi in the Coffee Room?

    #965864

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“I hate to say it but I agree with yichusdik (on a majority of his points) and there are some extremely delusional posters here.”

    You agree with him, but it seems you are the delusional one.

    “If you can’t admit that there is a serious problem with what happened in mea shearim and that every time something like this happens its a massive chillul hashem then hashem yiracheim.”

    Noone denied that what happened in Mea Sharim was wrong. They disagreed with the OP who put the blame on the leaders.

    #965865

    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“Health, I’ve got to call you on your utter irresponsibility. Frankly straw men are the most pathetic way to win an argument…against yourself.”

    Stop wimpering. You failed to even grasp my point. My point wasn’t that you were attacking e/o who is Charedi. My point was why are you blaming the leaders? Noone would ever blame the Amish Elders/leaders for crimes in their community -so why are you blaming the leaders of the Charedim for crimes in their community?

    #965866

    Toi
    Participant

    ya honestly, the amount of hate directed at these people is astonishing. go read the comments on the articles pertaining to said oilam. the amount of blatant anti semitism some people here are throwing around is unbelievable. posters are literally besimcha when they read or post about another chareidi getting in trouble for tax evasion or a civil disturbance. one can almost imagine them salivating over every juicy piece of news. i think an ounce of maturity is in order here.

    #965867

    Josh31
    Participant

    The word “ch…..” needs to be retired.

    It now means only a mode of dress, not a system of beliefs nor a code of behavior.

    The word poisons both those in the Torah community and outside the Torah community with the mindset that people are what they dress, not what they achieve or how they behave.

    if one dresses in a certain way only to steal and plunder, he will be labeled as “one who fears G-d” even as he is arrested for grand theft!!!

    #965868

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The word “ch…..” needs to be retired.

    I never used to self-describe as chareidi, until the past year or two. But I’m happy to wear it; I’m happy to affiliate as chareidi.

    Ich bin chareidi.

    #965869

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So where is the outrage for the rampant criticism of communities that are NOT charedi in the Coffee Room?

    I must have missed all the threads blasting the frum communities in Teaneck, Elizabeth, Hillcrest, etc.

    #965870

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ?? ??? ???? ?? ????: ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????, ???? ??? ????, ?????? ??? ???.

    Most b’nei Torah in E.Y. (according to relatives I’ve spoken to) don’t live at a much higher standard than that.

    And those are the ones who will continue learning without subsidies. Furthermore, (IMHO) they will get more support since those supporting will know they are learning by choice, not just to avoid Nachal Charaidi.

    You also did not address my other points, but I’ll leave that.

    I never used to self-describe as chareidi, until the past year or two. But I’m happy to wear it; I’m happy to affiliate as chareidi.

    Ich bin chareidi.

    I used to self-describe as chareidi (type: American), until the past year or four. But now I’m unhappy to wear it; I’m unhappy to affiliate as chareidi. I can’t be part of a system that does not condemm the Yad Eisav as a solution, any more than I could identify with a society that does not expel suicide bombers. I can’t be part of a system that teaches sinah for other Yidden, that uses sheker to promote its causes (even to the unwashed masses). (and I can’t blame the mods if they don’t post this)

    What am I? I’ll use the same term Rashi translates for Charaidi (in Ezra) and Rav Moshe used. Yeraim.

    (as per Google),

    ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????????

    (And I’m sad that I am no longer)

    #965871

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Sure, Health. You aren’t even reading your own posts. Before, you wrote about me:

    “Your hypocrisy and hatred to Charedim is astounding!”

    I then pointed out your straw man, then you wrote:

    “My point wasn’t that you were attacking e/o who is Charedi.”

    Make up your mind.

    #965872

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @health

    If we can all admit that it is wrong than why is it wrong to say that the rabbonim over there should make a stand about such a thing. If an analogous situation would happen here in America you would have tons of rabbonim screaming about sinas chinam. It seems that certain posters will defend what goes on over there to no end. What has to happen for you to realize that the situation there is out of control? As has been stated elsewhere in the CR there is no issue making voices heard in regards to other communal issues so why is this issue any different? I don’t think the leaders are necessarily to blame but the fact that no one from that community speaks up afterwards is very curious. And that’s what I have a taina on. The silence is deafening. I don’t think a rav told anyone to go stone people but I think the general atmosphere over there is definitely conducive to such a thing and that is what a rav should combat. I want to see an asifa on this epidemic of los sisna as achicha bilvavecha.

    @toi I am not besimcha I am very much betzaar and you should be too. Ironically there is plenty of “anti-semitism” to go around – charedi soldiers are people too.

    #965873

    WIY
    Member

    Jbaldy

    In the past the Rabbanim have made it crystal clear that they are against violence. They have made their opinion clear over the last few years by all the protests that nobody should be violent. They were of course ignored by this core group of hooligans. Hooligans don’t listen to Rabbis and anyone with seichel knows that the Rabbonim are against violence. They aren’t politicians. It’s ridiculous to expect a “statement” from them every time a few violent idiots do something. The only time they need to speak up is if the crazies arrested say “our Rabbis told us to do this.” Otherwise leave the Rabbonim alone and let them learn and lead their hundreds of thousands of NORMAL chassidim and talmidim.

    #965874

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @WIY

    I am aware that the hooligans are miscreants and won’t listen regardless. The point of making a statement would be to show that the rabbonim are not in support of it and so that the soldiers don’t feel like they are left out in the cold. It would be to show the chilonim this is not what we believe in and we do have some hakaras hatov and we do care about our fellow Jews – because a large portion of eretz yisroel does not believe that. They believe that the chareidim only care about themselves. For some reason campaigns against other issues have been very public I am not sure why ahavas yisroel isn’t worthy enough of a campaign. If the rabbonim don’t have the time than let one of the gabboim issue a statement as thats what usually happens either way. I find it hard to believe that its too difficult to do.

    #965875

    yichusdik
    Participant

    WIY – but the Rabonim in that particular community are quick enough to act against other issues in their midst. Why is it ok to act against pritzus but not against violence?

    AND BTW, one of the Rabbis in the shchuna came out publicly in favor of the violence. YWN reported it yesterday.

    #965876

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And those are the ones who will continue learning without subsidies.

    I hope they do, but I don’t think it’ll happen b’derech hateva. And, it will become much more difficult in the future for people to commit to long term learning.

    I’m not sure what else you want me to address, since you keep on harping on your point that it’s all about gelt, and although it’s true, it’s a disingenuous argument, because it’s not an end, it’s a means to a life of ruchniyus.

    #965877

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    one of the Rabbis in the shchuna came out publicly in favor of the violence.

    Hirsch, that sonei Yisroel who is condemned by almost all chareidim?

    He denies that there was any violence.

    #965878

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Headlines+&+Breaking+Stories/177038/Neturei+Karta's+Hirsch+Praises+Attack+Against+IDF+Soldier.html

    Yichusdik, I’ll come out and say it. You’re a fraud, and your trying to stoke sinah during these nine days is despicable.

    #965879

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Agree with DY, Hirsh is not a “Rabbi” of any kind (except perhaps Reform).

    #965880

    “I must have missed all the threads blasting the frum communities in Teaneck, Elizabeth, Hillcrest, etc.”

    Well, for one: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/this-is-how-to-do-it#post-334558

    #965881

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Jfem, thanks for proving my point.

    If all you can come up with is a thread started to defend MO schools, with one negative post immediately followed by several rebuttals, I’m obviously right.

    #965882

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“If an analogous situation would happen here in America you would have tons of rabbonim screaming about sinas chinam.”

    I’m not interested in putting down American Rabbis, but they seem to only do things that are PC. How come you don’t hear them talking about what’s going on right now with YU?

    “As has been stated elsewhere in the CR there is no issue making voices heard in regards to other communal issues so why is this issue any different?”

    And as I said before they don’t have to say criminal acts are wrong -it’s not their responsibility. You wouldn’t blame Amish elders for crime in their community -you and others are just looking to blame Charedim & their Rabbonim.

    #965883

    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“I then pointed out your straw man, then you wrote:

    “My point wasn’t that you were attacking e/o who is Charedi.”

    Make up your mind.”

    You don’t want to even listen to my point because you’re too busy putting Charedim and their Rabbonim down!

    Noone would ever blame Amish elders/leaders for crime in their community -so how come you have No problem blaming Charedi leaders for anything wrong in their community?

    This is why I posted -“Your hypocrisy and hatred to Charedim is astounding!” This has to be the reason why you treat Charedim differently than anyone else in this world, eg. the Amish!

    #965884

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @health

    Please actually read what I wrote. I never said anywhere that the rabbonim were to blame or that they ordered their talmidim to do this. You seem to be very defensive about this. What I actually said was that if someone in their community did something like this I don’t understand why its not their responsibility to say that such sinah is wrong and condemn it. Ex post facto not a priori. And you know if the Amish started stoning american soldiers you better believe they would be blaming the amish leaders. (I know its a straw man but I couldn’t resist). Besides for which unlike the Amish we have a concept of arvus in our religion.

    #965885

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Sorry you feel that way, DY. not stoking, not hating, just someone who is very disappointed in what he has been seeing going on around him. So much has changed since I was a kid in this oilem, and not much of it for the good. And by the way – I’m not now singing the praises of the dati leumi tzibur, or the MO tzibur, or anyone else. It isn’t about who is better than the other for me. Its about how each of these constituencies deals with change, deals with challenge, deals with wrongdoing. Nobody comes out smelling like a rose.

    #965886

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“What I actually said was that if someone in their community did something like this I don’t understand why its not their responsibility to say that such sinah is wrong and condemn it. Ex post facto not a priori.”

    Blaming after the fact by demanding condemnation is also blaming. It isn’t their responsibility to condemn every crime that occurs in their community, just because you and others say so!

    “And you know if the Amish started stoning american soldiers you better believe they would be blaming the amish leaders.”

    This is simply Not true. They wouldn’t blame them any more than they blame all Xiatinity for the actions of the Westboro Church that are doing disgusting things in the name of their religion.

    “Besides for which unlike the Amish we have a concept of arvus in our religion.”

    So now you are Rabbi and know more than the Rabbis in Yerushalyim, that the Torah, because of Arvus, requires condemnation for the acts of these criminals?!?!

    #965887

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sorry you feel that way, DY. not stoking, not hating

    Then you wouldn’t need to twist facts and make biased, unsubstantiated assumptions.

    Sorry, I’m not buying it.

    #965888

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @health

    how you came away thinking I was ascribing ex post facto blame (or how that even works) I have no idea. Apparently you want me to be saying something so believe whatever you wish I won’t begrudge you that opportunity. If you think this is an isolated incident and that none of the incidents an e”y warrant any response than I have nothing more to say.

    #965889

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Your prerogative, dy. You have no idea what I’ve seen or experienced, or what my assumptions are based on.

    Its no twisting of facts to say that when there is a collective will to address a communal affront like pritzus, there is a collective way to boot the offender out of the community.

    No such collective will or collective way exists with violence like this. The logical conclusion is that it isn’t enough of an affront to the community to motivate its manhigim.

    And even you can’t argue that Rabbis in the schuna don’t have a hashpo’oh on the collective will.

    #965890

    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“If you think this is an isolated incident and that none of the incidents an e”y warrant any response than I have nothing more to say.”

    What does isolated have to do with it? Does the Mayor of Tel Aviv get up and condemn Every single crime that occurs there? I don’t think so. Stop with the double standard.

    #965891

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The difference between Charedi and Non-Charedi communities is very apparent in this incident.

    The charedi communities are more homogeneous and want much more solidarity than non-charedi communities.

    In general (but not always) you cant even join a charedi community if you dress differently. However the other communities there is much less uniformity.

    Citizens of Tel Aviv relate to each other very differently than citizens of Bnei Brak. I describe it exactly but it is different.

    Charedi communities tend to like the uniformity .

    Thats why poeople might demand the Rabbis condem such actions but would not demand the same from the mayor of Tel Aviv for a mugging

    #965892

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You have no idea what I’ve seen or experienced, or what my assumptions are based on.

    If you’d seen or experienced enough, you wouldn’t have to make things up. Your doing so makes you lose all credibility.

    #965893

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    No such collective will or collective way exists with violence like this. The logical conclusion is that it isn’t enough of an affront to the community to motivate its manhigim.

    I have to agree. Had the perp’s wife gone out with her knees showing (instead of him attacking a Charaidi soldier), he certainly would have been punished/shunned by the community.

    #965894

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @health

    IF there was a lot of crime in Tel Aviv and the mayor of tel aviv never said anything about fighting crime in his city you would think there is a problem right?

    #965895

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Well, thanks for the summary judgement on my life experience, DY.

    Don’t know how stating things like

    “Its no twisting of facts to say that when there is a collective will to address a communal affront like pritzus, there is a collective way to boot the offender out of the community.

    No such collective will or collective way exists with violence like this. The logical conclusion is that it isn’t enough of an affront to the community to motivate its manhigim.

    And even you can’t argue that Rabbis in the schuna don’t have a hashpo’oh on the collective will.”

    is making things up. That’s not fiction, its logic.

    #965896

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That wasn’t a twisted fact, it was a misguided assumption.

    #965897

    yichusdik
    Participant

    …and at 6:30 pm Israel time today, there was a similar attack on a chareidi soldier walking alone on Shmuel Hanavi. buuuut…it’s all about me and my apparent prejudices. right.

    #965898

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Some people realy really missed the boat.

    To state that the Rabbonim condone violence is basically the willful distortion of facts.

    In the wider “chareidi” population there has not even been a peaceful demonstration let alone violent.

    Why?

    Because Rav Shteinman along with Rav Chaim and Rav Nissim have stated for what ever reason they have “hafgonos” will not work and other methods must be used

    .

    Even though they have made clear their students wil go to jail before they go the Army.

    So now lets focus in on Meah Shearim.

    What is Meah Shearim?

    It is the continuation of the “Old Yishuv” started by Men who traveled at great personal sacrifice to Eretz Yisroel soley to live in Eretz Yisroel because of the Kedusha of the land.

    When Zionism was started they opposed it tooth and nail.

    They were assured by the newcomers to the Land (after a member of the Eida Charedis was murdered by the Zionists Dr. De Haan) if they would compromise and not publicly oppose them it would be a “live and let live” situation.

    So the majority compromised.

    However though they comprimised because the nature of a “Jewish State” was so abhorrent to them, they refused to accept a penny from them.

    To this very day their Shuls, Yeshivos, and Mikvaos refuse to accept a dime of Money from the State. They take nothing from the “welfare state” either period.

    Yet the “state” continually provokes them.

    Each year a march is held in their streets to promote “Womens Equality”.

    At their Simchas Beis HaShoiva police are sent in to make certain their is no Mechitza.

    Again and again the Secular Government attempts to force their schools to adopt what the Secular Government considers a “core curriculum”.

    Then when the government passes Laws stating that it is not enpugh that they cannot legaly work, it is not enough that they pay 8% taxes to a government they take virtualy nothing frmo.

    If their Young Men refuse to go to the Army of a State they are opposed to on principle they will be Jailed.

    And then a young man shows up and some kids think he’s “recruiting” others to the Army they are principaly opposed top.

    So the Kids begin to shout at him, not physicaly attack, but shout and yell.

    And not adults, not the adults who are facing jail for their beliefs, but kids.

    I think that is quite admirable restraint.

    #965899

    Daas2
    Member

    yichusdik:

    “The people who attacked him don’t have conversations without guidance from their manhigim. They determine where to shop, where to daven, what side of the street to walk on based on the guidance of their manhigim.”

    “Shtikoh Kehodo’oh.”

    There are, today, hundreds of thousands of Jews who are mechallel Shabbos on a weekly basis. Does the fact that you have not gotten up and condemned such actions mean that you support them?

    Please realize that the Gedolim are very busy people (especially now that Lapid/Bennet are trying to outlaw learning in yeshiva), and they do not have the time to condemn everything that is wrong in this world, especially when they have already made it clear countless times that they are opposed to this exact behavior. You cannot reasonably expect them to take time out of their schedule to condemn a bunch of thugs who are widely regarded as crazy, and who will not listen to anybody in any case.

    “If there’s nothing the Rabbis can do, in a community so directed, so restricted, so regimented, then the system is broken.”

    Oh, please. Just because a few crazy extremists do dumb things does not in any way mean that the entire Chareidi “system is broken” any more than one crazy extremist killing Rabin means the entire Mizrachi “system is broken”.

    “If the Manhigim are truly telling people to restrain themselves, and they are not being listened to, isn’t there something terribly wrong with the society that needs to be addressed?”

    Yes, there is. It’s that people think that they know better than the Gedolei HaDor. But if you think that Meah Shearim is the only place where such a phenomena exists, you’re hiding under a rock.

    “Its kind of curious, though, that the “pritzusdike women” get hounded out of the neighborhood, and, as you say, are “outcasts”, but I’ve never read about one of these (not so young) mazikim being turned out of their home and their neighborhood for such actions. Outcasts? Not so much.”

    Who do you think it is hounding these “pritzusdike women”? R’ Shteinman? It’s the same guys who were just hounding this soldier – its not too surprising that they don’t kick themselves out.

    And yes, they are not accepted by the general community.

    jewishfeminist02:

    “we must conclude that either a) the rabbonim approved of the attack, or b) the Chareidim aren’t really so insistent on daas Torah as they claim to be.”

    You are assuming that everybody under the umbrella term “Chareidi” think and act as one monolithic group. Take that stereotyping out, and your logic falls to pieces. Most Chareidim do indeed listen to daas Torah – but to claim that every last person wearing a black hat will never do anything unless directed to do so by a Rov is simply ridiculous.

    yichusdik:

    “When someone tells me that its the aimless, the young, those who won’t listen to guidance who perpetrate this, I first ask, are you sure? How are you sure?”

    There are no Gedolim advocating or in any way tolerating violence. These people are being violent. Ergo, they are not listening to the Gedolim.

    “In this particular community, however, the guidance is defined, strict, and comprehensive. It includes EVERYONE, even the easy to blame youth. As I wrote above, this particular community has no problem evicting those who don’t comply with their standards of tzniyus. Why, if the posters above are right, and it is aimless youth who are involved, why are they not similarly removed from the community? I can only surmise that such actions as were perpetrated on this chayal are condoned, if not encouraged, by those who are listened to in this particular community.”

    You seem to think Meah Shearim is some kind of Mafia-controlled neighborhood where nothing happens without the bosses permission, and those who break the bosses’ rules are “taken care of”. News flash – that simply isn’t true. Chareidim in general do listen to their Rabbonim, but the Rabbonim are not Mafia-style bosses with absolute control of everything anybody does.

    jbaldy22:

    Nobody is saying that assaulting Israeli soldiers is a justified course of action. Kindly do not put words in our collective mouths. We just think that blaming the actions of a few crazies on Chareidi society in general and its “Manhigim” in particular is ridiculous.

    “What I actually said was that if someone in their community did something like this I don’t understand why its not their responsibility to say that such sinah is wrong and condemn it.”

    I think Health’s previous comparison actually works rather nicely for this point too: do you not understand why the MO “Manhigim” don’t get up and condemn the events that occurred in YU? Or do you see how they can simply assume that everybody recognizes that such a thing is wrong without having to be told about it?

    yichusdik:

    “Why is it ok to act against pritzus but not against violence?”

    Pritzus is a much more widespread problem than violence. If incidents of pritzus were also so rare as to be newsworthy, we would indeed treat them the same way.

    “one of the Rabbis in the shchuna came out publicly in favor of the violence. YWN reported it yesterday.”

    Yeah, Neturei Karta. You’re not seriously suggesting that they speak for all of Chareidi Jewry, are you?

    #965900

    Toi
    Participant

    thats interesting. where on S hanavi. i was at the corner of bar ilan and s hanavi at almost exactly 630. didnt see or hear anything.

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