"Where Are the Men"-Article in last week's Mishpacha

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  • #601456

    mytake
    Member

    Basically, he claims that fathers and husbands must get more involved in the Tznius of their daughters and wives. He feels that men must be more knowledgeable in the halachos and more tuned into the standards of dress in their homes in order for us to see an improvement in this area.

    Anyone here read it?

    #844385

    What he is saying (based on your above summation) is pretty obvious. There isn’t much to comment.

    #844386

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Which Rabbi Kelman wrote the article?

    Didn’t see the article, but based on what you write, as a husband and father, I think it is obvious that this be the case, but sadly, I see it is often not the case.

    #844387

    treble clef
    Member

    That could exacerbate the problem. Women take their ways of dress very personally. I would find it intrusive if father/husband had serious input. There are other more productive ways to try and up tsnius levels.

    #844388

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Women take their ways of dress very personally.”

    Perfectly normal. Also perfectly normal for a father to ensure his family adheres to halacha. In fact, it is what halacha demands.

    #844389

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    IMHO, women dress for other women. They are trying to impress their friends/teachers/shadchanim/future MIL & family. Shouldn’t rebbetzins/morahs(/mothers) be setting the example?

    The only men who should be paying attention anyhow are those on a date, and (dare I say?) as long as she’s not a complete slob, he should be paying more attention to her middos anyhow.

    By the time a father has sons in shidduchim, he/the boy’s rabbeim (I’m sure have been)/should have been modeling good middos for years, or at least much sooner than two weeks before he comes out of the freezer. I could be in the minority, but I think it’s less important for my son to know how to schect a cow (unless he wants to be a shochet) than for him to know how not to eat like one.

    #844390

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    I did read the article (by Rabbi Leib Kellman). And it is a point that I have heard many years ago. The men have no clue what is and isn’t allowable and therefore women do as they wish. The women have been taught better, but when their husbands say “nice skirt” without realizing how many problems there are with it, then she will wear it. If the men know, they will be able to speak up with confidence. And if the women know that their husbands know they won’t be able to whitewash that which is wrong.

    As to the girls – teenage girls can be really sensitive. If a mother is inclined to “let this one go” on a questionable garment, but her husband tells her not to – then she won’t and will be stronger with herself and her daughter.

    The emphasis today on looks which starts with shidduchim (which starts at about bas mitzvah age!!) exacerbates this problem. Blazers aren’t “stylish” so why would a girl want to wear one when a fitted sweater is more “in” and makes her look “nicer.” The spirit of the law gets completely lost in all this, and it isn’t far until actual halacha is breached.

    As to the other areas that were mentioned – such as hilchos shabbos and kashrus, I think most men are at least as aware as the average BY graduate. The difference there, is that girls are taught to know to ask, not necessarily what the halacha is in every situation. Boys are taught more halacha l’maaseh and don’t realize how many holes there are in what they have been taught. (And article like the one in the previous week’s Ami don’t help!)

    #844391

    Like apushatayid said, a man is halachicly obligated to insure that his wife and daughters never wear non-tznius clothing.

    #844392

    adams
    Participant

    What is the answer for cases where finances are very difficult? a few years ago when I was unemployed for 2 years I noted that my wife was wearing very tight skirts and dresses not for fashion but it was still fitting.

    I see this quite often in very Chareidish gatherings some ultra tight clothings. But if the finances don’t allow for new what are they supposed to do?

    #844393

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Like apushatayid said, a man is halachicly obligated to insure that his wife and daughters never wear non-tznius clothing.

    Never???

    The Wolf

    #844394

    Non-kosher food is also cheaper than kosher food.

    #844395

    WM: In public (or even at home if their are guests around.)

    #844396

    SaysMe
    Member

    adams- if it comes there, there are gemachs for 1-alternations, 2-clothes in new or gr8 condition, 3- $ for new tznius clothes. b’ezras Hashem it never should again!

    #844397

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    How can someone read the article if Mispacha was banned

    #844398

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How can someone read the article if Mispacha was banned

    The only people who know it was banned are the ones with internet, which was also banned. 🙂

    #844399

    shuli
    Participant

    i agree with treble. women/girls take it very personally.

    #844400

    cinderella
    Member

    I have to agree with treble clef. I don’t think it’s a fathers place to tell his daughter whats tznius. A husband maybe, but not a father. It would only make the problem worse. I know, when my father used to tell me that something was too tight/too short, it made me upset. It’s the mothers responsibility.

    #844401

    A man is halachicly obligated to insure his wife and daughters are always tznius.

    #844402

    essy8
    Member

    sorry, i didn’t see the article. is this R’ Leib Kellmen from Prospect Park High School in Brooklyn, or R’ Leib Kelemen (To Kindle a Soul, etc) from Yerushalayim?

    #844403

    cinderella
    Member

    Horses Mouth, Can you show me a source for that?

    #844404

    Queen Bee
    Member

    I think when a girl reaches a certain age it’s not a good idea for the father to tell her how to dress because it would make the girl feel very uncomfortable, she might feel that she lost her father’s respect, and that may cause her to lose respect in herself, therefore her clothes become less respectful as well. I think the best way to get a girl to dress appropriate is by leading by example. Mothers, aunts, teachers, and all the other women that the girls respect need to show their girls how one can look good while being dressed appropriately. And if a girl is dressed in an immodest manner she should be told in the most respectful way how she should dress. Not by saying, “how can a Yiddishe maidel dress this way” or “your family should be ashamed of you”. Rather, show her how beautiful being modest can be.

    I agree with Cinderella.

    #844405

    morahmom
    Participant

    Fathers should be involved without becoming nags. If the standard for tznius in the household is set by both parents together, it is the same as any other issue of chinuch: the united front always works best.

    #844406

    cinderella
    Member

    I think it’s not so good for a father to tell his daughter how to dress because he has no idea what tznius is. Well, ok, he may know the actual halachos, but it takes being a woman to really get it. It would be like me telling my father how to learn.

    #844407

    Tznius is a halachic issue, and a father knows halacha the foremost in the family, including moreso than the mother. He also bears responsibility that his family complies with halacha.

    #844408

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I don’t believe the article states a father or husband should offer style advice, rather they should step in when necessary if the style violates the halachic standards of the household.

    You might not tell your husband HOW to learn, but if you saw him studying something questionable, say the early writings of the church elders, you wouldn’t say anything?

    #844409

    Queen Bee
    Member

    I’m not going to argue here, but not all men know all the halachos very well. Since tznius is a woman’s mitzvah, I believe a girl needs to be taught what’s appropriate and not have to constantly be told by her father, which can make her feel uncomfortable. Okay halacha dictates that the father needs to enforce the halacha, but imo, it would be best for him to tell his wife to tell the daughter. I personally don’t have a problem in this area, but I would not appreciate it if my father told me how to dress.

    #844410

    I’m just stating that if hes sees his wife or daughter violate a tznius halacha (or any halacha for that matter), he is obligated to correct them.

    #844411

    cinderella
    Member

    Horses Mouth and apy- Tznius is way more than a halachic issue. Most people know the halachos of tznius, they don’t need to be reminded of them. Cover your knees, your elbows, nothing tight… we all know that. A father telling his daughter halachos of tznius will not help in the slightest.

    I’m with Queen Bee.

    #844412

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Does the article say anything about fathers constantly harping on tznius? I didn’t read it, but from the synopsis here and heard from others, it advocates no such thing.

    #844413

    If a guy sees his wife or daughter wearing a skirt above her knee or too tight, for example, he has a halachic obligation to tell them so they stop.

    #844414

    cinderella
    Member

    Again, Horses Mouth, do you have a source for that?

    #844415

    Sam2
    Participant

    THM: A skirt above the knee for sure. Too tight I’m not sure about. It’s not an issue of Ervah, there might be no obligation to stop them.

    #844416

    It’s elementary that a father is responsible for the halachic adherence of his family. Among other things he has a an obligation for chinuch and tochacha.

    Truthfully, the obligation of tochacha applies towards any Jew. Many moreso ones own family.

    #844417

    golden mom
    Member

    and what about a mother of a married women i had this debate with somebody that y the a womens mother wouldnt say anything to her married daughter who is dressing not tzisdik in the street and i was told once ur daughter is married u cant say anything cuz ur over stepping boundries i disagree if a husband wont say a mother or father then thats y people are walking around like they do

    #844418

    youngbubby
    Member

    I appreciate that there are those among you who feel that the fathers/husbands should be the ones to set the ground rules in the home regarding tznius, as for most other halachically based issues. Sadly, however, men across the orthodox/yehsivish/ chasidish spectrum do not really know what is appropriate for women and girls to wear; they just don’t understand the nuances of a little too tight, too revealing, too suggestive, etc. Women, however, do know the difference, but unfortunately even among those who are very sensitive, the more you see of a mode a dress, the more acceptable it becomes. It is the responsibility of mothers, who are the ones who take their children shopping or buy their clothing, to take care not to dress their daughters even at a very young age, in anything that they would consider inappropriate as a teenager. This does not include things like pants and short sleeves, because these are things that girls naturally stop wearing because they know that a frum girl does not wear these things. (I am referring to your mainstream girl, not someone rebellious.) I am referring to styles that are cut inappropriately, fit inappropriately, are styled in a way that a frum woman should not dress, even if all of the correct body parts are completely covered. Dresses or skirts that just hit the knee and are straight cut, or pencil skirts, cannot possibly be long enough when sitting. Too tight lace tops with nude colored shells underneath are obviously suggestive of wearing nothing at all underneath. Only mothers, older sisters, or other female role models understand these things and can lovingly guide their charges into wanting to dress appropriately. Strict “no”s are not necessarily the way to go in this day and age. Rather, having the girl/teen assess the article of clothing as she tries it on and coming to the conclusion herself may be much more effective. As a first time poster, I am sure there will be those of you who will have many strong comments in favor and against; so be it. I will not be responding to posts regarding my comments, not because I am copping out, but because I don’t think I have anything more to say. Gut voch to you all!

    #844419

    cinderella
    Member

    Someone is only supposed to give tochacha if it will help. I don’t think this is the case in this case.

    #844420

    In which case? Most frum people will stop doing an aveira if told they are sinning.

    #844421

    WIY
    Member

    The Horses Mouth

    “Most frum people will stop doing an aveira if told they are sinning.”

    Oh if only that were true! If only!

    Try going over to people who are talking in shul during Chazaras Hashatz, Kaddish, krias Hatorah and tell them that it is assur to talk. See where it will get you.

    Most things people do wrong they know it is wrong but do it anyways because they have a yetzer hora and others are doing it too. We tend to rationalize especially when we are part of a group. Nobody wants to be a frummie and sadly for many keeping basic Halacha like strict Tznius or not talking during Davening, watching movies…makes one a “frummie.”

    #844422

    cinderella
    Member

    Horses Mouth- WIY is right but I was talking about the case where a father gives his daughter mussar about tznius. It should not be coming from him. It will be ineffective and even harmful.

    #844423

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    cinderella: It depends on his relationship with his children. Generally in a warm, close household a father bears a more authoritative role, and balanced with a genuine warm approach, can prevail more. Again, part of the mitzvah of Tochacha is the way it’s given.

    #844424

    morahmom
    Participant

    Thank you, Zeeskeit! It is not just a father’s role to “give tochacha”; it is to be mechaneich and that relationship starts when the children are infants.

    It is very true that if the only communication a father has with a daughter is one of giving tochacha, it won’t help very much to start in on tznius issues. While certain topics are less comfortable than others for fathers to address, there are many ways for fathers to express their opinions as well as to be the backbone for halacha for the entire family.

    #844425

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Cinderella, re: father/daughter, there is a mitzvah of chinuch. Regarding a wife, there is no chinuch, and quite frankly there isn’t much a husband can do if a wife refuses to listen (I think rav moshe z’l has a teshuva to someone whose wife wouldn’t cover her hair – he paskens, if I’m not mistaken, he is not obligated to divorce her – I believe that was specific question), but he is certainly obligated not to go along. What I suspect Rabbi Kelman was adressing was, silence is tacit approval, and they should not be silent, at the very least.

    #844426

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Chinuch is not Tochacha. If it is, then the parents need a parenting class. Chinuch comes from both parents and a unified message must come from both parents (as well as all other partners in chinuch, yeshiva, school, shul rav etc). If father demands his daughter dress according to most stringent opinions and her mother does not, forget it.

    I better read the article before I put words in the mouth of Rabbi Kelman, but I suspect he laments that fathers and husband are absent altogether, meaning no direction at all comes from the home in this matter, making the schools out to be the crazy machmirim and the home practically a free for all.

    Would anyone disagree with the thrust of the message if we substitute kashrus for tznius as the subject for his article?

    #844427

    mytake
    Member

    cinderella

    “Most people know the halachos of tznius, they don’t need to be reminded of them. Cover your knees, your elbows, nothing tight… we all know that. A father telling his daughter halachos of tznius will not help in the slightest.”

    Thank you for pointing that out. This is EXACTLY what I was thinking while reading the article. I’m pretty sure that almost every single litvishe, chassidishe, and MO girl is very well aware of the basic halachos of coverage and tighness.

    Blaming the husbands and fathers for the widespread negligence in this area is oversimplifying the problem.

    I believe that if men were to start inspecting their wives and daughters clothes, it would have the same wonderful affect as when women become their husbands Mashgiach, and constantly bug them about learning more.

    It IS a very sensitive issue to most women and girls. And although I agree that a father/husband has a responsibility to point it out when he halacha being violated, I believe here it would have no or negative affect.

    So, back to Rabbi Kelman’s original question: If women DO know the relevant halachos, why do we dress the way we do?

    #844428

    mytake
    Member

    essy8

    Yes, I believe it is Rabbi K from Prospect Park

    #844429

    mytake
    Member

    The Horse’s Mouth

    “…Most frum people will stop doing an aveira if told they are sinning. “

    In which case I have to assume that 90% of girls are sleeping through class and never heard the basic halachos.

    #844430

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The Horse’s Mouth

    AKA The Joe:

    If the mother is the breadwinner, she runs the home. Then she gets to do what she wants, not the husband.

    #844431

    cantgetit
    Member

    Soo, if people on the street aren’t supposed to tell girls they see dressed inappropriately that they are doing something very wrong, and you are saying their fathers and husbands also shouldn’t be telling them that, then WHO exactly should tell adult girls and women that are dressed non tznius that they are dressed inappropriately???? (Especially when it’s the wife with the tznius problem…..)

    #844432

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    WHO exactly should tell adult girls and women that are dressed non tznius that they are dressed inappropriately????

    Someone who can do so B’Nachas, without making the person upset or looking down on them. Just like any other tochacha.

    #844433

    mytake
    Member

    cantgetit

    That’s my point: They already know that they’re not dressed appropiately. So they don’t need to be told. They problem is not a lack of knowledge.

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