December 4, 2017 7:05 am at 7:05 am #1417607
A few points worth mentioning, I’ll spread them out in a few posts:
Let’s separate Medinat Yisroel from Eretz Yisroel. Do you think that Hashem loves His Land any less because of Zionism and because it is currently run by a secular government? There are numerous chazal and pesukim in Navi that describe how there is a special Hashgacha Pratis in Eretz Yisroel, how the shefa that comes to all the world is first channeled through Eretz Yisroel. Did that all suddenly stop in 1948? Does the fact that people who don’t know Torah hi-jacked the concept of living in E”Y take away from its inherent value? There is so much brocho here. We see nissim here all the time-in everyday events and in the big picture too. Spreadthetruth talked about “common sense and a basic understanding of how the world works”- the thing is, E”Y works differently than everywhere else.
Some examples: People mentioned Rommel during WWII. It was a foregone conclusion that Rommel would conquer Palestine just as he conquered North Africa, just as community after community fell to the Nazis in Europe- by all logic and rational understanding what was to stop him? Only Hashem.
In June 1967, with Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and more, armed with all the might of Russia behind them, threatening Israel with another Holocaust, the government ordered thousands of body bags and started digging graves in the parks. All logic dictated that this would be the end. And Hashem did open miracles, and the Jews of E”Y were once again saved.
The Gulf War- 39 Scuds missles were shot at Israel, how many were killed? Exactly 1. And in case you think the Scuds were duds, look what damage one Scud did to an American army base in Saudi Arabia- 28 died, close to 100 wounded. At that rate, there should have been over 1000 Israeli victims.
Today, how many terrorist plots are foiled, how many times the number of victims should have been much greater. For example, 1 day of terrorism in NYC left 2,700 dead, including 119 confirmed Jews (source: BBC article debunking conspiracy theories of 9/11). In all of 2001, 159 Israelis died of terrorist attacks (source: wikipedia, list of Israeli civilian casualties of second Intifada; I counted up each event quickly by hand, so may have miscalculated.) Out of the 5 million Jews living in Israel at the time, that comes to 0.0032%. Wikipedia has 1.4 million Jews in NYC in 2002, so that comes to 0.0085%, or 2.6 fold more Jews died of terrorism in 1 day in NYC than in Israel in an entire year. Even if you calculate the 9/11 victims in terms of total Jews in the US (about 4 million, depending how people define being Jewish), it comes out to 0.003%, basically the same in 1 day in the US as a whole year in Israel. You can argue, but 9/11 was a one-time event, a statistical anomaly. Perhaps, but it is a wake-up call that challenges the thought that it is safer in the US, since that can all change in just 1 day. Al tiftach peh l’satan.
Yes, Jews die in E”Y, but that is because we are still in Galus, and if we weren’t dying here, we would be dying in whatever other country we were concentrated in.December 4, 2017 7:05 am at 7:05 am #1417608
1. There is a concept that being sent into Galus was a Bracho in disguise- that Hashem davka spread us out so that when Jews are attacked in one place, they will find haven in another. So perhaps it is fool-hardy to have such a large concentration of Jews in 1 place. By the way, there were close to 7 million Jews living in Eastern Europe, and another 2.5 million in Western/Central Europe prior to WWII, out of 15 million worldwide. While there were many reasons to leave Europe, no one suggested that Jews should leave because they had reached a dangerous critical mass. And let’s say they had read the hand-writing on the wall and left in millions for England and the Americas (ignoring the fact that these countries would not have taken them). Hitler had plans to conquer the world – he had maps showing how many Jews there were in the US and worldwide. Is it so ludicrous to imagine that had Hashem willed it, and 6 million needed to die, he could have conquered England and America too?
2. Yes, E”Y was destroyed twice and Jews suffered enormously during both chorbonos. Yet, the Neviim foretold of only 2 chorbonos, and then we would return to our land. It seems that Gog uMagog will involve E”Y- perhaps we are experiencing it already. Chevlei Mashiach prior to the geula. But Gog uMagog will involve the whole world- and ultimately E”Y will be saved. I rather be here when it happens. I hope those that are saying that E”Y is an “eretz ocheles yoshveha” will be able to join us in the end too.December 4, 2017 7:36 am at 7:36 am #1417623
WTP, I think you are making some good points while also overstating some facts. Israel was digging graves in Israeli parks? Where’d you hear that? Also, Iraq fired dozens of scuds into Saudi Arabia that went nowhere before they got that one hit (like in Israel.) Where’d you read that Rommel occupying Palestine was expected as a forgone conclusion by the British? If your going to compare violent death rates you also need to count Israeli military causalities since ’48. Why are you only using one specific year?
Really what I think people find objectionable is the secular claim that the State is created to be a safehaven for Jews everywhere to escape to in time of crisis. What many of the posters here are pointing out is that this claim could be at least just as easily made by America, Canada or Australia. And that there’s no way to predict whether the next golus threat to Jews will occur on Israel or in America.
As far as concentration, prewar European Jews were spread out over the continent. The State, otoh, is geographically much smaller.December 4, 2017 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1417648
Syag: I guess I didn’t/still don’t understand your first post. You said you were speechless so I assumed I said something controversial. Also, I still don’t see the issue with what spreadthetruth is saying. The anti-Semitic left is a loud and prominent minority in the US. Meanwhile, polls show that almost all “Palestinians” support terrorism against Jews. I don’t think anyone is denying that Antisemitism exists in America; there’s just a split on whether or not we’re willing to accept the cold, hard reality that it’s worse in Israel.
Let me put it like this: A frum Jew needs a place to live and he asks two friends “I’m mainly concerned about my kids’ safety. Which area has lower violent crime, Brooklyn NY or rural Iowa?” Friend A says, “rural Iowa.” Friend B says, “your kids are less likely to assimilate in Brooklyn, and who knows, maybe an evil dictator will take over Iowa.”
Friend B might be steering him in the right direction, but it’s not the answer to that specific question. I don’t deny that Israel is the future, and that most of the argument in favor are true; I’m not on the far anti-Zionist right. However, I’m not going to pretend that it’s safer than the US, because it’s just not. The pro-aliyah faction is using deceit by playing up a warzone as a “safe haven.”December 4, 2017 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1417654
I believe your view of American anti-Semitism and physical safety is very naive, and given your description of Israel as a “war zone” I believe your view of there is about as realistic as that of a Boro parker’s view of Detroit. : ) and in support is your illustration of American safety by claiming that there will be no return of Hitler y”sv, as if that is the only scenario that would render us unsafe. Sounds like a lot of drama, headline talk.
Regarding speechless – I meant shock/surprise, not controversyDecember 4, 2017 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1417741
However unsafe America may be, Israel is unsafer, is the point Neville is trying to convey, I think. B’derech teva. What the other side is seemingly arguing is that b’derech nissim they think Israel is safer, even though b’derech teva it isn’t.December 4, 2017 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1417778
I don’t believe a Hitler magnitude situation is the only thing that would render us unsafe. It was Avi that kept making the Holocaust references earlier. What I was responding to is the idea that “Jews felt safe in Germany then the Holocaust happened. Jews feel safe in America now, therefore it’s going to happen again.” This is a completely absurd concept.
The views I’m bringing are only numbers based; that’s how I operate. Statistically, you are more likely to be the victim of Anti-Semitic violence in Israel. The only arguments to the contrary have been conspiracy theories. Like I said earlier, the rate of incidents in the US would have to rise by a lot to make it less safe than Israel. The rates of assault tied to anti-Semitism have actually gone down in the US if you look at the ADL publications. They tout that the rates of incidents have gone up overall, but a closer look shows that that’s only because they are now including internet harassments as anti-Semitic incidents, the overwhelming majority of which are anonymous “trolling,” which is wrong, but highly unlikely to lead to anything dangerous.December 4, 2017 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1417788
The grave digging I’m pretty sure I read in a book called “Six Days of War”, by MIchael Oren. Flipping thru the pages, I found a reference to the digging of 10,000 graves (pg 136), but I couldn’t find the park part- but i do remember reading it since it was quite a dramatic description.
I didn’t say that Rommel entering Palestine was a foregone conclusion to the British, but that was the general perception at the time, something I have come across in reading stories about the time (I don’t remember the source, perhaps it was “Echoes of Yesteryear” a diary by Ayala Rottenberg who lived in E”Y during that time) that the Yidden in E”Y were terrified that they would be the next victims.
I used 1 specific year -2001- to prove that it could happen in the US, not that it is reflective of what happens all the time, but to show that there is no guarantee that America is as safe as people feel it is.
I didn’t count Israeli military casualties since the discussion was about what the person on the street feels, safety of the citizens.
I couldn’t care less that the secular claim Israel is a safe haven for the Jews. I am basing my feelings on what our mesorah tells us about E”Y and Hashem’s Hashgacha. Again, people shouldn’t negate Eretz Yisroel because of Medinat YIsroel.
Yes, I realize the fallacy in comparing Israel to Eastern Europe in terms of size. Although a large nuclear attack or coordinated attacks could obviously wipe out an area much larger than Israel. And it took Hitler just a few years to annihilate the Jews in that much larger area, with little escape possible. So geography is not necessarily a protection.December 4, 2017 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1417821Put down the gunParticipant
In Israel there are potential terrorists and in America there are illegal gun carrying suicidal nutcases. In Israel there are gun carriers on almost every street corner, in America the security guard was armed with a phone to call police. Iran is a threat to Israel. RocketMan is a threat to America. Most important of all, THE GUARDIAN OF OF ISRAEL NEITHER SLEEPS NOR SLUMBERS.December 4, 2017 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1417833
WTP, you realize, of course, that the safety Hashem provides to living in Eretz Yisroel applies no less to southern Lebanon, trans Jordan, Ramallah, Gaza, Nablus and Jenin (all of which are in Eretz Yisroel) than it applies to Haifa, Tel Aviv, Rishon Letzion, Netanya and Ashdod.
Would you recommend Yidden avoid living there (S. Lebanon, Ramallah, etc.) due to security precautions? If so, why wouldn’t you acknowledge comparative security considerations be considered for living in other parts of EY?
Regarding military casualties, there’s a universal draft applicable to all resident Jews that isn’t applicable to Jews in other countries (as well as a violent conflict that hasn’t ended for the 70 years of the state’s existence), so that is certainly a man-on-the-street concern for Israel.December 4, 2017 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1417866
Winnie, the Galut is a blessing? So why daven to come back to EY (assuming that you do not omit it)?
Neville, you have not answered my question. What difference does it make to the victim if he is killed by a terrorist, a nut or a common criminal? If you want numbers, the intentional homicide rate for the most recent year surveyed in Israel 1.36 vs. 4.88 in the US. Israel also had a lower rate than France, Canada and Belgium.December 4, 2017 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1417873
You need to compare the homicide rate for Jews. The rate you quoted is mostly for minority-on-minority drug killings in the inner city, and the like (domestic violence in communities where that is endemic, etc.), that has little effect on the larger Jewish community living elsewhere. The heavily Jewish neighborhoods in the US are generally among the safest, comparatively. On the other hand, the Israeli statistics is mostly constituted of Jewish victims.December 4, 2017 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1417885
Slonimer, of course you realize that these places are technically off-limits to Jews, so no one can argue that Jews should live there. Your argument would have been stronger had you suggested places like Hevron, Sderot and the many small yishuvim surrounded by Arab towns, which I personally would not live in, but many people do. You will say that I am hypocritical about my belief in Hashem’s Hashgacha. I don’t think that what I said about Eretz Yisroel in general contradicts the idea that there are some place that are safer than others, or that we are not exempt from hishtadlus just because we are in E”Y. You still can’t say, I will cross the street without looking since Hashem watches over E”Y. I think it is a scale of hishtadlus vs relying on Hashagacha. You need more hishtadlus to achieve the same level of “safety” outside of E”Y than you do within. Safety within E”Y will still vary, but since there are different rules in E”Y, you can’t measure it with the same yard-stick. I’m not sure if I am explaining it well.
Back to military- take a look at other recent threads to remind yourself that de facto, there is not a universal draft, at least not at the moment. No one (until your recent post) has forwarded the position here that one should not live in E”Y because he will have to go to the army and that is very risky, which is why I did not present any counter-arguments to that. I would agree, that if you don’t want to go to the army or learn full time to get an exemption, or don’t want either of those options for your kids when they become of age, then it is not a good idea at this time to make aliya. But there are ways to live here as a non-citizen and not have to go the army. So it does not have to be a man-on-the-street concern for an American Chareidi moving to Israel, (Disclaimer: this very non-PC statement is not meant to underestimate the real dangers facing those who do serve or a lack of appreciation for their sacrifices, those of you here who have served or have children who have/will serve can carry on the discussion from your point of view.)
I think you summarized it nicely with the teva-vs-nissim statement above. When it comes to so many issues, whether safety, financial, etc, E”Y seems to operate l’maale min hateva. Hard to apply logic and statistics to that. Those who can accept that, can live in E”Y successfully. Those who have a hard time with that, will find everything wrong.December 4, 2017 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1417889
AviK, you misunderstood me, or missed the next sentence- galus is not a blessing in itself, the fact that Hashem spread us out the way He did when he sent us into Galus was a “blessing” within the punishment, since it helped to preserve us, the galus just as easily could have been that we all were sent to Rome and stayed put there. The same way that Chazal say that the churban Beis Hamikdash had its benefits- because He took out his wrath on stone and wood instead of destroying Am Yisroel, which is what we really deserved. Obviously we rather neither happen, but Hashem “cushioned” the blow, so to speak in the manner that it was done.December 4, 2017 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1417890
BY the way, Slonimer, to continue one point from earlier on in the discussion re the Scuds and the Gulf War, which further digging into Wikipedia revealed:
46 Scuds were launched at SA, 10 caused significant damage, with a total of 29 dead (all but 1 US soldiers in that army barracks). I assume that the many misses can be attributed to the size of SA, and that it’s mostly desert.
42 Scuds were sent at Israel, 4 of those landed in the West Bank. As far as I remember, many were sent at the greater Tel Aviv area, a highly populous region. Wiki confirms that thousands of homes and apartments were damaged- so the missiles did hit their mark (or at least the debris of missiles intercepted by Patriots, which was just as dangerous). Yet only 2 direct deaths (the other site I quoted before said 1). Why? There are so many stories of people who should have been home, but weren’t, those who normally stayed in the sealed room, only to decide at the last moment to go to the miklat, or vice-versa, and thus were saved from a missile hit. Logic said that Israel was a dangerous place to be at that time, yet those who lived there were zoche to tremendous nissim.December 4, 2017 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1418138
Winnie: Are you saying that those miraculous situations couldn’t happen if missiles hit Jewish areas of the US? Is the basis of the miracle argument that Hashem only protects Israeli Jews?December 4, 2017 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1418136
Thank you, Joseph. I thought that answer went without saying, but I guess nothing does.
Avi, I’m not anti-Israel or anti-aliyah. What I’m against is when the pro-aliyah folks are faced with the difficulty of convincing people to move to a dangerous country, they rely on misleading instead of other methods of proving it’s worth it. The US is much bigger geographically, and the violent crime rates are not evenly distributed. If somebody said, “I don’t want to live in Israel because it’s dangerous, so I will live instead in a place like Crown Heights, Washington Heights, or downtown Baltimore,” then you would have a good case.December 5, 2017 6:34 am at 6:34 am #1418571SpreadthetruthParticipant
I don’t even know why anybody has to accept this idea that people live in EY on some sort of l’malah min hateva level. No such thing. They’re just living on less, and living on American money. This l’malah min hateva thing is made up of out of thin air. And we’re supposed to accept it at face-value because to say it’s not true all of a sudden makes you an apikoris. And some anecdotal evidence doesn’t prove a thing.December 5, 2017 7:27 am at 7:27 am #1418620
Spreadthetruth. You don’t have to accept the concept of l’malah min hateva. Everyone has to live according to their level of emuna and do the appropriate hishtadlus. But you should not say that there is no such thing for other people who are on a different level of emuna/living on a different plane.
And for some more anecdotal evidence, try reading “Einei Hashem” by Dr. Meir Wikler. It won’t prove a thing to you, but it has some good stories.December 5, 2017 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1418625
Neville, I can’t predict miracles and am far from an expert on hashkafa- these are deep questions. I don’t believe that miracles are exclusively for Israeli Jews, or better stated, Jews who live in E”Y. Obviously, there are many examples throughout history of Jewish communities over the world that did not receive miraculous reprieves, as well as many examples of hashgacha pratis when individuals and communities were saved. Have you heard stories of 9/11 of Jews who should have been at work by 9 AM but were not- because of slichos, problems with trains, a kid who forgot his homework, etc? And the reverse is true as well- people suffer in E”Y, disasters have occurred, and not just during the 2 chorbonos.
How do I reconcile this? Am Yisroel, who unlike the 70 nations were never put under the influence of the mazalos, have direct hashgacha from Hashem. This is dependent on our actions, and when we are not deserving there is hester panim, and we are vulnerable to the bad around us. There can be exceptions for worthy individuals, and when Hashem acts towards us B’rachamim and protects us even when we are not deserving. E”Y was similarly put under the direct Hashgacha of Hashem. So a Jew who is living in E”Y has a double level of Hashgacha, or in other words, is in the optimal place to receive that Hashgacha. Our sins are a barrier to the Hashgacha coming through at all times, but there is still a greater potential for it for a Jew in E”Y.
Does this make sense?December 5, 2017 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1418667A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Isn’t anyone here aware of how Medinas Israel is occupying the space Hashem has promised to us as Eretz Yisrael. Even if the current majority are secular Zionists, they are making it blossom in preparation for when we all return. And as He always has, Hashem will not allow EY to be destroyed by Esav/Amalek, any of our various enemies. How else can you explain how a ragged army of survivors beat back all the threats in both 1948. This year we commemorated the miracle of the Six Day War in 1968. Don’t you get it, Hashem is the General who protects EY.
In the meantime, the handwriting in the USA is clearly visible on the wall. We’ve had a good run here, but this is Golus. We were successful in Spain, Persia, Germany and so forth. Don’t rest on your laurels in your fancy Boro Park homes. Yes, history does repeat itself and we are witness to an upcoming generation of Jews who hate Israel and Judaism.December 5, 2017 9:31 am at 9:31 am #1418679
Eretz Yisroel is in golus as well.December 5, 2017 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1418775
Joseph, your mantra is just a way to be inciting. You ignore the fact that she specifically said “Medinas Israel is occupying the space Hashem has promised to us as Eretz Yisrael” and you seemingly ignore the very fact that the land carries it’s own kedusha. It boggles my mind that anyone would think that they do not have more siyatta dishmaya on that land than in Uganda. Walking on that ground is a mitzvah. To forgo so many mitzvos for the sake of feeling “safe” (which is a joke since safety is not a physical state of being separate from Hashem’s hand) is silly.
Every second a yid is alive is only thru Hashem’s will. Do you really think you can discuss where you would be “safer” as if it is a geographical consideration? And before you decide to ask me if I mean that living inside an erupting volcano is the same as living in a guarded palace, save your breath. I’m not conversing with the devil’s advocate.December 5, 2017 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1418809
Syag, her comment that the USA “is Golus”, in the context of her implying that Eretz Yisroel is not Golus, is certainly objectionable and wrong. And that needed to be pointed out.
As for the rest, as has been quoted in the other thread, of the Chofetz Chaim saying America is our last stop before the geula and Rav Chaim Volozhin saying the Yidden won’t be persecuted in America, I won’t speculate as to what they meant.December 5, 2017 11:37 am at 11:37 am #1418840
Syag, please do not feed the troll.December 5, 2017 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1418843
Rav Chaim Volozhin told Reb Dovid Tevel, mechaber of the sefer Nachalas Dovid, “That the day will come when the pillars of European Jewry will topple, when the yeshivos will be destroyed and uprooted. However they will be reborn in the exile of America, the final stop of the Jewish people before the arrival of Moshiach. The American exile will be the tenth and final exile, following those of Babylon, North Africa, Egypt, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Poland and Lithuania.”
Rav Aryeh Z. Ginsburg shlita writes about this in the Feldheim book “Daring to Dream” under “The story of Rav Dovid Leibowitz and Yeshivas Rabbeinu Yisroel Meir HaKohein”.December 5, 2017 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1418885
That’s an interesting approach to counting the exiles to make sure America ends up #10. Separating out Spain, France, and Germany, but packaging North Africa as 1 and Poland/Lithuania as another 1. Not mentioning Persia, Turkey, or Greece at all. If the quote is really by the man to whom you attributed it, then I’ll just leave it at that… Interesting approach.December 5, 2017 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #1418897
Neville, get the sefer I cited for additional information on the tidbit I directly quoted.December 5, 2017 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1418881
Syag, that wouldn’t be devil’s advocate, that’s just the rational next argument to your point. I’m sorry to say it, but you aren’t arguing rationally. If a Jew lived in Gaza (within the halachic boundries of Eretz Yisroel), he/she is not safer than living in Lakewood. The point that Hashem makes you safer in Eretz Yisroel just defies simple logic since we observe that it’s not true. It would be nice if it were true; it would be nice if it we could learn Torah all day and live nicely without working. I don’t agree with being so dependent on miracles that you lose all sense of reason. Now, if you’re going to talk about “WHY wouldn’t Hashem make us safer for living in Eretz Yisroel,” I don’t want to go there. It doesn’t make sense to me either, but it’s the reality. Stop pretending it’s not. It’s like pretending a deceased Rabbi who you really respected is still alive because you just can’t accept the reality that he’s not…December 5, 2017 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1419090
Joseph – false. she did not say USA is galus, she said that although we are enjoying our stay in the USA, THIS is galus. This time period is galus so it doesn’t matter that we FEEL safe because we are in Gd’s hands only.
And blah blah blah to the rest. I think you have lost your passion for trolling and you don’t sound like even you believe your contortions.
Sorry Avi, you are right.December 5, 2017 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1419092
Neville, what does logic have to do with a Jew’s reality?
Feel free to live that way if you’d like. I don’t see how it is possible, feasible or even okay to remove hashgacha from the picture and then re-assess. And of course you bring up gaza, which I pretty clearly stated is exactly what I WASN’T talking about.
When people compare apples and oranges, pretending they are also talking about smoothies is just being joseph.December 5, 2017 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1419101
“This time period is galus so it doesn’t matter that we FEEL safe because we are in Gd’s hands only.”
This time period of golus applies to both Eretz Yisroel and Chutz La’aretz.December 5, 2017 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1419105
yes joseph, which is what she said.December 5, 2017 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1419416
Syag, I’m not taking hashgachah out of the picture entirely. What you seem to be arguing is not about Hashem protecting the Jews, it’s that Hashem protects Jews in Eretz Israel more so than b’chutz. Why would it be unfair to ask why that only applies to the medina’s boarders and not the halachic boarders?
If you’re angle is that you wake up on this day, December 5th 2017, and think that from here on out, Israel will be safer than the US because that makes all the sense in the world going by the Torah (which I don’t deny), then OK; I envy that amount of emunah. But, sadly, every day from 1948 until today has not gone your way. What we’re clearly arguing is that, in galus, you’re no more protected in Eretz Yisroel than anywhere else. Simple logic favors our side, the Torah might favor your side (I wouldn’t mind sources, but I’m taking your word for it for now). It seems we’re at an impasse.
“When people compare apples and oranges, pretending they are also talking about smoothies is just being joseph.”
I know that’s supposed to be an insult, but I’ll take it. I’ve admired Joseph for years as the YWN CR legend.
P.S. Sorry if I come off too strongly in my previous post. I do respect your opinion on this, I really do; it’s just too much of a stretch for me to accept.December 5, 2017 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1419882
not an insult, just making a point that having the same components as the topic does not necessarily make it on topic.
” Sorry if I come off too strongly……. it’s just too much of a stretch for me to accept.”
so don’t accept, there’s nothing wrong with that. Not accepting my view isn’t really a reason to be strong, I just experienced that from a friend, only tenfold, and am still trying to wrap my head around it.
I can respect you regardless of whether or not we agree, and I do. I am just floored to hear a frum yid say that about the land of E”Y as if it can really possibly be just another clump of geography with stats and numbers like any other in the big scheme of things. Never heard it said, and it shook me. But you aren’t alone so it must be a ‘thing’ (as my kids say)December 5, 2017 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1420373
Gaza is in E”Y; it doesn’t just have the components of the topic, it’s 100% on topic. The theory that Hashem would treat the Medina boarders differently than the halachic boarders is textbook religious Zionism, so it’s shouldn’t be shocking that I made that connection in my first post.
You can word my view of the statistics like that if you want, but do you deny their accuracy? Are you really surprised that there are yidden who view reality as it is on this subject, or just surprised that I publicly said it? I find that it is, as a poster said earlier, getting to the point where if you state the simple reality when it comes to eretz Yisroel, the Zionists treat you like a koifer. To be a real frum yid, in their eyes, you have to pretend Israel is safer, which it’s not as we’ve demonstrated, pretend that the quality of life is the same or higher, which it’s not.December 6, 2017 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1420769
Neville, outside the Medina’s borders have a lesser degree of protection. Thus, when David HaMelech fled to Gat, which was under the rule of Plishtim, he said that he was expelled from Hashem’s inheritance (Shmuel Alef 26:19).December 6, 2017 7:44 am at 7:44 am #1420829reb mutcheParticipant
We can always escape to Tev Aviv. That’s pretty far from Israel.March 10, 2019 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1692229
Jews in all English speaking countries, whether America, Canada, England and Australia, should have their askonim work with the government and legislators to make available refugee status for Israeli Jews to be welcomed to move to their country in case they need to escape from Israel.
Whether escaping an Arab threat or a threat by the Israeli government targeting Torah Jews.
The Brisker Rov suggested in may be necessary for Bnei Torah to move out of Israel if the threat from the Israeli government against the Bnei HaYeshiva gets worse.March 10, 2019 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1692253
A city that is filled with Torah has special protection. It has an Iron Dome.
In America, the Ir HaTorah is without doubt the safest place outside of EY.March 10, 2019 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1692291
“Would you recommend Yidden avoid living there (S. Lebanon, Ramallah, etc.) due to security precautions? If so, why wouldn’t you acknowledge comparative security considerations be considered for living in other parts of EY?”
There’s a concept of Shechichai Hazaika. If it’s a place that is considered dangerous then you can’t go in there and expect an open miracle. You don’t need an open miracle to live in Jerusalem. You likely would need an open miracle to spend a couple days in Ramallah.March 10, 2019 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1692289The shchunaParticipant
Eretz yisroel is the safest place on earth.March 10, 2019 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1692258
This whole thread shows that the sin of the spies is very much with us.March 10, 2019 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1692266
I live in Yerushalayim, right on the border with East Jerusalem. There’s an ever present risk here but isn’t anywhere in the world that’s safer than here. I won’t pretend like I don’t feel more anxious here than I do in the USA, but I do know that Israel has a shemira on it and I’m not any safer anywhere else.
A couple of years ago, during the knife intifada, I was talking to a secular Israeli. He asked me why I live here, being as it’s so dangerous. I told him that I feel like my neshama can only survive here. He told me that his brother lives in Houston because he thinks Israeli isn’t safe. I told him that if Hashem wants to get me, he can get me here or there. It’s not like God won’t find me in America. As if to prove my point, within that week, Hurricane Harvey hit Houston.
Whether he’s your icon or not, here’s a quote from none other than David Ben-Gurion. He said, “In Israel, in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.” It seems like Ben-Gurion was a bigger maamin than some of the posters here.March 10, 2019 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1692328
“There’s a concept of Shechichai Hazaika. If it’s a place that is considered dangerous then you can’t go in there and expect an open miracle. You don’t need an open miracle to live in Jerusalem. You likely would need an open miracle to spend a couple days in Ramallah.”
Interjection: Once you admit that living in parts of Eretz Yisroel, such as in southern Lebanon, Ramallah or Jordan, are not safe, there’s no hashkafic reason to refrain from admitting that Australia and America is safer than Tel Aviv and Haifa.March 11, 2019 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1692505jdbParticipant
Eretz yisrael is the only land where serving in the army means defending the safety of other Jews. If Chas Vshalom something goes terribly wrong and there is a threat to our safety, you don’t run. You stand up and defend our people and our mekokos hakedoshim.
In 48, 67 and 73 the yeshiva bochrim were supporting from the home front, volunteering in hospitals, helping to dig ditches etc. Let’s not let politics get in the way of hallacha. Defending the life of a fellow Jew at risk is an incredible mitzvah. Leaving and being poreish min hatsibur requires a serious posek.March 11, 2019 8:11 am at 8:11 am #1692510
I knew someone whose hevruta ran back to America when the first Gulf war broke out. He was immediately called up by his reserve unit and sent to Saudi Arabia. I also heard of an Israeli who ran to America and was killed in an auto accident.
The fact of the matter is everything is dangerous. Crossing the street is dangerous. The question is how dangerous and why someone is accepting the danger. For example, it is permitted for parnassa if it is something that people normally do (e.g. construction work). Moreover, conquering EY is a milchemet mitzva and that obviously pushes off. Where in EY one lives is not particularly important except perhaps for the areas that were part of Jerusalem during the time of the Bayit Sheni.March 11, 2019 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1693124
“Once you admit that living in parts of Eretz Yisroel, such as in southern Lebanon, Ramallah or Jordan, are not safe, there’s no hashkafic reason to refrain from admitting that Australia and America is safer than Tel Aviv and Haifa.”
Hashem can protect you wherever in the world you are. I don’t think there is anyone who believes that if he is in Eretz Yisroel, then he is protected from danger. Hashem watches over you whether you are here or anywhere else.
However, Moshiach is coming any day and when it all goes down, I want to be here. Looking around, it is clear that we are very close. We live with luxuries far greater than even the wealthiest kings had for millennia. We have a/c, heating, unlimited water pumping into our homes, indoor bathrooms, and all the other modern conveniences that just make it seem like Hashem is gearing up for something great.
Maybe I’m nuts and really the world is just Teva and everything that’s going on in the world is an accident. I’m going on my beliefs and my belief tells me that Hashem is preparing Eretz Yisroel for Moshiach to come soon.March 11, 2019 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1693179CaptainBump™Blocked
Maybe I’m nuts
True.March 12, 2019 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1693708CaptainBump™Blocked
Jews can go to the wonderful city of Oz.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.