December 2, 2017 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1417031Self esteemParticipant
If chas v’shalom Israel comes under a nuclear threat from Iran or another state or entity or there’s a real risk of an Arab military invasion or takeover, or even an existential threat of terrorism far greater than the current threat, where will millions of Israeli Jews be able to escape to?
I’m also referring to a situation similar to the threat to European Jewry in the run-up to the second world war.December 2, 2017 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1417039
ובהר ציון תהיה פליטה
עובדיה א יזDecember 2, 2017 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1417036
They won’t be able to escape. That’s one of the dangers of the State of Israel. It creates a false sense of security for the Jews living there. And although it might be a beautiful place to visit, it is actually the most dangerous place in the world for Jews to live, because on a practical level there is no other place in the world were such a large group of Jews live together under constant threat from their enemies. And I’m not referring to the local Arabs who can kill “merely” ten to a hundred Jews in a terrorist attack. I’m talking about countries that are capable of killing hundreds of thousands of Jews with a press of the button. And it will be no consolation for us that the State’s nuclear armed submarines annihilated Iran or whoever it was in response.December 2, 2017 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1417037
Are you serious? Israel is the final destination of the Jewish people there is nowhere else to escape to. You think if there would be nuclear war in Israel no other country would be involved in the war somehow? The real question is how safe the Jews are all over the world if world war broke out.December 2, 2017 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1417049
Instead of spouting propaganda, think with your head. The State of Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews. I’m not talking about nuclear war, I’m talking about a nuclear attack on Israel for the purpose of killing Jews. You have to live in reality.
And Avi K., when you prove your credentials at interpreting and applying cryptic and prophetic pesukim you can get back to me. Till then, we live in a world of practical considerations.December 2, 2017 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1417063slominerParticipant
Many Israelis have dual citizenship. Many are American or European by birth or even their parents or grandparents birth there. And are qualified for foreign passports and immediate rights to residency. Grandchildren of Holocaust survivors often have European citizenship whether they’re aware of it or not. And a few years ago some European embassies were reporting a large uptick in applications for passports in Israel.December 2, 2017 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1417065☕️coffee addictParticipant
Wow spread the truth
I’m taking that you never heard of the gulf war and what happened thenDecember 2, 2017 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1417072beeeParticipant
As long as we are in galus, we cant relax and say that we are safe. We also have to realize that all the things that we think we can rely on to save us is really nothing but a test in our emunah. NO, America will not be the one to protect Israel. And for all of us that live in America, we should not feel more safe here than living in Eretz Yisroel. we have to pin all our hope on Hashem and daven that we will be zoche to see the end of this confusing galus!December 2, 2017 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1417075interjectionParticipant
Spread the truth, if your Shita is that the evil Zionists conquered Israel against God’s wishes and that they are the Satan and Moshiach cannot come until the State of Israel is eradicated, then yes we are in huge trouble over here.
However, if your shita is that the fact that we have Eretz Yisroel in our possession is a huge Nes, especially considering that the country was conquered by Holocaust survivors (merely three years after it was over), in a defensive war against every surrounding country. Whether or not you agree or are happy with the government, if you view everything about Israel’s existence since then to be a Nes, you can definitely sleep a lot better at night.December 2, 2017 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1417078FreddyfishParticipant
Escaping is a lack of bitachon!!!!!December 2, 2017 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #1417080akupermaParticipant
Conditions under which Israelis would need to flee would probably involve serious use of weapons of mass destruction (also known as “doomsday” weapons). There would be no where to flee. There is a reasonable chance Americans would also have to flee. While it is unknown if the Israelis developed effective bio-chemical weapons, there is a saying each country bases strategy on the last war, and the worst case secenario, which leads one to suspect the Israeli “model” was how to survive if World War II went the other way, which suggests the Israelis would have developed weapons of mutually assured destruction.
Perhaps this is an argument to develop interplanetary travel.December 2, 2017 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1417092zahavasdadParticipant
I hear Tristan da Cunha is wonderful this time of yearDecember 3, 2017 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1417100
@Spreadthetruth- Are you guys nuts? Im not spreading any propaganda I dont live in Israel and dont have an agenda to tell everyone to move there. As you can tell by my comments never mentioned any of that. Why do you feel you are so safe amongst the goyim in their land? THAT is where the false sense of security is not in Israel. Again Israel currently is also golus but at least it is the land where no one can “rightfully” say that you don’t belong. Anywhere else they can. If there was a war, Israel has an army of Jews that wants to protect other Jews. That is the least we can do. In America or anywhere else it is a non jewish army many who might have negative feelings towards Jews and might not want to protect Jews in the streets from Goyishe riots and violence against Jews in case of anti Semitism. And then where will you escape to? Will you have a choice?
Stop with the victimized helpless attitude of relying on living in goyishe lands where you feel protected. Of course we appreciate every moment of freedom but stop acting like someone is promising you that without change! Throughout the years we have been brutally beaten and killed, kicked out and almost exterminated out of all the lands in which were considered empires and in which we had much success in. This cause jealousy and fear against the Yidden which led to that outcome aside from “gezeiros fin shamayim.” Just look at the PRESENT day Europe and England look at the rise of anti-Semitism, look here in the United States of America where swastikas are freely appearing everywhere, homes, college campuses, shuls all the more frequently and with no fear of consequence. You are talking like a blind sheep being led to the slaughterhouse if you feel safe in a goyishe land without fear or even a chance that it might change.December 3, 2017 1:29 am at 1:29 am #1417104
Besides Hashem would not ever let obliteration of his land why would he ever do that? It has never happened throughout the Torah and it is the land HE promised to his children since Avraham Avinu. Wouldnt make much sense anymore if the land was wiped off the face of the earth.
Also you speak of escaping an atomic bomb. Does that even make sense in your mind? How far would anyone get with a ten minute warning would they be able to prepare,get to the airport and take off somewhere? How far would anyone get..what a joke
As if it even mattered if there was a place to escape to.December 3, 2017 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1417109
During WW2 it seemed like Rommel would conquer EY c”v. In fact, the British were making plans to evacuate and the Jewish National Committee was making plans for a Massada-style last stand on Mt. Carmel. At the time Rav Herzog was in DC to ask FDR to bomb the tracks leading to the concentration camps. FDR said that he was willing to save one Jew – Rav Herzog – and offered him an iummigrant’s visa. Rav Herzog paskened that the Third Commonwealth would not be destroyed. The rest is history.
BTW, the Gemara (Yoma 10a) says that there will be a war between Rome and Persia. There is a machloket as to who will win. This could include a brief confrontation between Iran and Israel (Sanhedrin 98b) after which Mashiach will come.December 3, 2017 1:32 am at 1:32 am #1417111JosephParticipant
Since the establishment of the State of Israel, more Jews have died or been maimed in its defense or for being Jewish in Israel, than Jews have died or been maimed in any other country of the world. Statistically, Israel is the most dangerous country in the world for a Jew to live in (from any country with a large Jewish population.) Even with all the recent violence in Europe against Jews, even Europe statistically has proportionally less violent deaths and injuries against Jews then Israel experiences.
The last thing the State of Israel can claim is that it is somehow a safe-haven for Jews.
Just look at how many Israelis now live in the US, Europe and elsewhere. So many have moved out.
Palestine was safer for Jews before Zionism existed (that’s 1898 for you non-historians) than Israel has been since Israel existed. So the danger stems not from living there per se, but rather from the result of the actions and policies the Zionists have wrought upon it.December 3, 2017 1:33 am at 1:33 am #1417114GadolhadorahParticipant
joseph’s house…klal yisroel can use both the upstairs guestroomsDecember 3, 2017 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1417127
No question, Hashem could do whatever He wants, and there could be a Holocaust in America tomorrow. But practically speaking, common sense and a basic understanding of how the world works tells you that having millions of Jews concentrated in one area, surrounded by enemies that want to kill Jews (not just draw swastikas) is more dangerous than anything else.December 3, 2017 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1417140
Please, Rav Herzog didn’t “pasken” anything like that. He was a talmid chochom, not a Navi. Don’t believe garbage stories like that. And for sure dont build a whole hashkafa out of it.December 3, 2017 7:45 am at 7:45 am #1417144
@spreadthetruth-“common sense and a basic understanding of how the world works tells you that having millions of Jews concentrated in one area, surrounded by enemies that want to kill Jews”
-exactly and we’ve seen it throughout our history, btw noone ever believed it could happen in germanyDecember 3, 2017 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1417150Put down the gunParticipant
“Eretz Asher Tomid Einei Hashem Elokecho Bah Meirashis Hashono Ad Achris Shono”. This Passuk has been proven reliable time and time again.December 3, 2017 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1417151hmlParticipant
I ain’t escaping to nowhere; I am definitely safer here than I ever was in UK or US. I pity Joseph, Spreadthetruth & others for their lack of bitochon.December 3, 2017 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1417152
1. A nuclear attack on Israel would also result in the destruction of the entire middle East from the fallout. Nit ti mention the fact that Israel may well have a few nukes of its own.
2. There already is a holocaust going on in America. It is called assimilation and even frum communities are effected, if not by actual intermarriage by acculturation.
3. The story about Rav Herzog is aknown fact.
Joseph, what about the pogroms and the Holocaust? As for statistics today, what is it per 100,000 Jews? Not to mention general crimes which are not specifically directed against a person because he is Jewish. Israel has a much lower intentional murder rate than the US and also lower than Canada and several European countries- and a good part of the murder rate is “family honor” killings within the Arab sector.December 3, 2017 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1417173
I guess you’ve forgotten about the two churbons. Many Jews were slaughtered in Eretz Yisroel. And don’t think it can’t happen again. History does repeat itself.
The destruction of Israel can happen without nuclear warfare. Millions of Jews can be killed in an attack with regular weapons. Stop with the fantasies of Israel being the safe place for Jews. It’s just a dream.December 3, 2017 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1417171JosephParticipant
“I ain’t escaping to nowhere; I am definitely safer here than I ever was in UK or US.”
Sounds much like the attitude among some German Jews, circa 1930s.December 3, 2017 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1417179Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Thank you, Spreadthetruth, for having a rare but sane opinion on this.
Litvhisher and others: he’s not saying anything about “evil zionists” or philosophical anything. He’s just pointing out the REALITY that Israel is currently more dangerous than the US. It’s just a simple fact. The idea that Israel exists for US Jews to escape to is a fallacy since, even if Americans started attacking the Jews, they would have to get really bad before they’re as dangerous as the Arabs.
All Spreadthetruth was saying was that one place is more dangerous than another, not making a political statement at all; allow me to do that: if you honestly believe that Hitler 2.0 taking over America and orchestrating Holocaust 2.0 is a more likely scenario than the Arab nations bombing Israel, then you have drunk the Zionist Cool Aid by the bowl-full and you are a crazy person.December 3, 2017 8:57 am at 8:57 am #1417183gavriel613Participant
לפי שהם ימי עבודה והכנעה ופחד ומורא מהשם ויראה ממנו ומברח ומנוס אליוDecember 3, 2017 9:08 am at 9:08 am #1417191
Gosh Neville, I’m speechless. I had no idea there were sane Jews with that viewpoint. Maybe reality just holds different meanings for different people.
☹December 3, 2017 10:16 am at 10:16 am #1417229zahavasdadParticipant
If you are afraid of living in Israel, Im sure the Ukranians would love to have you return to our shtetlsDecember 3, 2017 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1417287takahmamashParticipant
I am an Israeli Jew. I have no plans to “escape” if there’s an emergency.
Apparently, according the the thread on Religious Zionism, I’m going to hell anyway. What difference does it make if I’m in E”Y or somewhere else?December 3, 2017 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1417319
Between this thread and the one about Religious Zionism, we can read more of Joseph’s hate-filled posts quoting V’yoel Moshe like it’s the holy grail!December 3, 2017 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1417333
Did you ever even learn the whole Vayoel Moshe? I don’t know about holy grail, but he definitely knew a lot more than you. Try it, it would be a learning experience. It’s always the amei ha’arertz who speak like you do.December 3, 2017 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1417334yytzParticipant
Good points, Avi K. The traffic fatality rate is also much lower in Israel (in terms of people per 100,000 population who die each year in car accidents), because people drive so much more in the US. Opiate overdose deaths are also very common in the US. Suicide rate in the US is higher. 9/11 killed a number of Jews. Over 50 Jewish US troops have died in Iraq or Afghanistan. If you all all these extra deaths together, they probably make it statistically safer to live in Israel since 1948 ( and definitely since the 2nd Intifada ended — very few, comparatively speaking, have died in terror attacks since then.)December 3, 2017 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1417335akupermaParticipant
The original posting suggests an Israeli response to being destroyed.
The response would probably use weapons capable of destroying all countries that are attacking Israel. Nukes wouldn’t do that. To be effect such a weapon must we a weapon of “mutually assured destruction” and the only weapon that would do this would be a bio-chemical weapon (such as a biological weapon to spread highly fatal, easy to spread diseases for which there are no cures). Such weapons are “suicide” weapons and to be effective need to have global impact – meaning there can be no where to hide.
Anyone for a discussion of extra-terrestial colonization?December 3, 2017 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1417348
Neville, you apparently know very little about what is going on outside your block. American and Canadian campuses are hotbeds of anti-Semitism. Europe is reeling from one terror attack after another. Jews in Paris are attacked in their own homes. Meanwhile Jews are intermarrying in record numbers.December 3, 2017 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1417367
I’ve never opened Vayoel Moshe, nor do I ever intend to. I’m not criticizing it but the Satmar Rebbe’s, zt”l view on the State of Israel was that of a da’as yochid and the only people bound by it are his followers. So people like Joseph who refer to it ad nauseam are simply looking for excuses to hate other Jews.December 3, 2017 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1417372
Who told you that it’s a da’as yochid? On the question of whether or not to vote he was a da’as yochid, but not on the more substantial ideas. I’ve studied this for years (both sides; I served for the IDF in Lebanon and Gaza for a fifteen months as well, so I haven’t just talked the talk). Of course you don’t plan to ever read it. Most people are like that. They’re big talkers, but little to show for it. Please explain to me about this da’as yochid business. What do even know about the Satmar Rebbi’s da’as?December 3, 2017 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1417382jdbParticipant
לא ינון ולא ישן שומר ישראל.
There is a reason we live here. We have never thought of moving back. This isn’t propaganda. It’s our home. And nothing is going to take us away.
Hashem gave us a present. He gave us nissim venuflaod. The land is literally flowering before our eyes. We haven’t been zocheh to the true geulah yet, but we are maaminim and we mean what we say.
The Chet hamiraglim was asking. The tikkun is jumping in.
For 2k years the sounds of children laughing was missing from Yerushalayim. Od yavoh… Visit Teddy Park during beIN hazmanim tell me the words of the Navi aren’t being seen before our very eyes.
When they dig here to build a home, they often find the homes of our grandparents which were forced out by churban bayis. Now we are here. And though we may not all agree on politics or government, for the first time we are here together. The children, the long lost cousins are returning.December 3, 2017 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1417386DWKL1Participant
ובהר ציון תהיה פליטה this chazal was quoted by non other then the chofetz chaim zt’l when asked before the war where jews would be safe and he quoted the above chazal
their is the famous story about the tzadik reb shloymka zhviller zt’l who went to daven at the OHR Hachaim ztls kever and promised that the jews would be safe and protected from the NAZIS YIMACH SHEMOM
he died shortly thereafter and i was said at the time that his demise was a kapara =meesass tzadikim mechaper and saved eretz yisroel from the nazis (ROMMEL who was across the seuz canal right across the border from israel )December 3, 2017 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1417394
DWKL1, actually the quote is from Ovadia HaNavi. As for the others, I suggest that they read Em HaBanim Semeicha. Rav Teichtal realized that their anti-Zionism was tragically wrong and wrote that the holocaust was caused by the sin of the spies, which we see in this thread..December 3, 2017 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1417400
After 1948 who else held that the State was literally a ma’aseh Satan that was holding back Moshiach? The overwhelming majority of both Israeli and American gedolim viewed it as a new reality that had to be dealt with.
I realize that people like Joseph love jumping up and down with glee anytime a Jew is hurt or killed in Israel. However, that doesn’t come from their great holiness, only their great hatefulness.December 3, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1417476Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Avi, yes because American college students holding up signs that say “Free Palestine” is the same thing as Arabs murdering you with an ax; clearly I don’t have the facts straight.
Nobody is fighting you on assimilation. Probably for 2 reasons: 1) you’re correct. Assimilation rates being far higher in the US is a fact (kind of like Israel being more dangerous is a fact) 2) that’s not at all what this thread is about and nobody else is feeling like indulging the derailment.
Syag: Which part is controversial? There is more terrorism in Israel than the US; since when did facts become controversial opinions?December 3, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1417479slominerParticipant
Perhaps America can be a safehaven for Israeli Jews seeking to escape.December 3, 2017 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1417527
Syag: Which part is controversial? There is more terrorism in Israel than the US; since when did facts become controversial opinions?
who said anything about controversy, and why would my comment be on terrorism when that wasn’t even mentioned in the original post?December 4, 2017 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1417583
1. That is how it started in Germany and Poland (although there they told Jews to go to “Palestine”). The fact of the matter is that there is a climate of fear on American campuses. A tenured professor at CT College, Andrew Pessin, was forced to leave after he received death threats over his protest of Hamas war crimes.
2. That certainly is connected to this thread. How is America safe for Jews if there is rampant assimilation (in fact, it is not inconceivable that those who refuse to date non-Jews will be ostracized as racists).
3. What is the difference tot he victim if he is killed by a political terrorist, a crazed gunman or a common criminal? The fact of the matter is that the intentional homicide rate in Israel is much lower than in America.December 4, 2017 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1417590
A’s you admitted yourself, you have no idea what the Satmerer Rebbe wrote. And you yourself said that you have no interest in studying what he wrote. But somehow you know all about his opinion about maisah Satan and all about what the other gedolim held. Maybe it’s time to educate yourself. Get busy studying. I’m not saying you can’t have your own opinion, and disagree with a gadol, but at least study his shittah first.December 4, 2017 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1417591
I highly doubt that Joseph feels any happiness when a jew is Israel is hurt or killed. I think that’s a terrible thing to say about someone. Joseph has the right (if not the responsibility) to point out that living in Israel is more dangerous than almoat any other civilized place in this world.December 4, 2017 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1417592
The idea that anti-semitism is widespread in America is merely propaganda. There might be a lot of ant-israel sentiment, with some spillover into anti-semitism (and we can thank Medinas Yisroel for that) but it’s not significant or dangerous, when compared to the danger that the Arabs pose in Eretz Yisroel.December 4, 2017 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1417597
spreadthetruth – you are an interesting cross between joseph and kj, but your last post is so contrived that it is almost funny. Do you make these things up or are you repeating something someone else made up?December 4, 2017 6:57 am at 6:57 am #1417606
@Spreadthetruth- First of all anti israel is the new excuse for anti semitism. Secondly I agree that Israel is the cause for anti semitism since there was never any anti semitism before the state of Israel was created so I guess youre right on that one.
You also cant compare immediate dangers to potential dangers. The fear is that it doesnt spiral out of control and then would be an even greater danger than just an arab trying to kill you it would be a whole different level even though we all know by now how safe you feel living in a land of goyim who are doing you a favor.
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