Where is Har Sinai??
- This topic has 71 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 3 months ago by Health.
April 27, 2018 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1512618
just wondering… Shavuos is coming nearer and nearer, but no one seems to know where har sinai actually is! i know what people say abt the rocks with a picture of a burning bush on them, but i’ve heard that they are nothing to do with it being har sinai or not.
does anyone have more info?April 27, 2018 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1512720ubiquitinParticipant
I’m not sure what you are looking for.
some believe it is Jabal Mussa in the Sinai Peninsula, though nobody knows for certain.
when it was captured during the 6 day war R’ Shlomo Goren Ascended with a Sefer Torah.
the joke at the time was that he was trying to give it backApril 27, 2018 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1512727☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
Someone’s written a book about this recently (I saw it advertised).
Sorry, I can’t remember the title/author/publisher.April 27, 2018 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1512738
how about yam suf where is that?April 27, 2018 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1512763ashkifardParticipant
the Torah Living Museum led by r’ deutch put out a dvd or book about it, forgot which one.April 28, 2018 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1512802
@litvishechossid think we know where yam suf is, its the sea between egypt and israelApril 28, 2018 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1512803BORUCHHASHEMBORUCHHASHEMParticipant
haha.. Aron or efrayim.. which one? Guess whoApril 28, 2018 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1512804BORUCHHASHEMBORUCHHASHEMParticipant
the book you mean is searching for sinia by rabbi alexander hoolApril 28, 2018 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1512828GadolhadorahParticipant
The Lionza Rebbe, who is a big talmid chacham and archeological expert on matters described in the torah had a CD on his website years ago describing matan torah, har Sinai and various theories about its location. It was available at the Living Torah Museum but I’m not sure its still there. He had some issues with Lubavitch and they weren’t too happy about a book he wrote about the rebbe, moishach and all the usual stuff.April 28, 2018 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1512827
@decoyerebbe- you seem pretty confident for something so disputedApril 28, 2018 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1512824zahavasdadParticipant
Most Likely Yom Suf is where the Suez Canal is todayApril 29, 2018 7:53 am at 7:53 am #1512894ubiquitinParticipant
“Most Likely Yom Suf is where the Suez Canal is today”
Most likely not,, since where the Suez Canal is today was dry land back then and not a “Yam”April 29, 2018 9:38 am at 9:38 am #1512924zahavasdadParticipant
Adjectives in the Torah do not necessarily have the same the same meaning as todayApril 29, 2018 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1513170
Also har Sinai disputed if it’s in Saudi Arabia or EgyptApril 29, 2018 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1513169
It’s probably part of the red Sea there’s a great piece on it if you Google “sea of suph” the website address is .il (Israel)and the name is etzion so scroll down for it. Don’t know who they are but lot of info and sources. Also brings up the fact that Shlomo Hamelech built a port or something and it says it’s between Eilat and yam suf so it would have to be the red Sea. The exact crossing location is another subject. Also if you Google Solomon’s pillars red Sea you will see images of alledged pillars that were placed marking the location of the crossing. It’s unclear since images show crossing the sea but don’t we know that bnei yisrael crossed in a semi circle back to Egypt? Anyway I think the pillars had been removed by saudi forces but many pictures and diagrams to check out.April 29, 2018 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1513167
Har Sinai is in Saudi Arabia it’s actually surrounded with alot of fences and off limits without connections to the gov but I watched a fascinating video on YouTube showing everything from the yam sir to finding chariot wheels, bones, horse shoes on thethe bottom of the ocean floor they also showed the beach right before the crossing was actually melted sand and rock with a very dark color and fused rocks on top layer but reg rock just under the surface. Which can possibly be from the amud Haish . They also show Har Sinai and it’s amazing to see the top 5 percent that makes the tip of the mountain is burnt. It looks like a shadow but its not it’s actually burnt from the shecinah they also show a huge rock that split in middle in to 2 rocks where the water came from and clearly shows smothed out rocks below where the water poured. They have what looks like a mizbach of rocks with pictures of a calf with the Egyptian style of writing and drawings. It shows where Moshe could have been and a clear view of the aygel it also shows the cave of eliyaho hanavi in the same mountain and many many more very interesting pictures that match very well with what we know about Har Sinai. It can not be in the Sinai peninsulah because that was part of Egypt and we know they left Egypt
It’s also interesting to see the place where noachs tayva landed in turkey by Mount Harrarat it’s a very visable imprint of a large boat and the measurements of the imprimimt in the ground is 300×50 cubits. Which apparently is Amos. I will try to upload some pics if that’s allowed here (in new to thos site). Bit of anyone. Wants to see pics I can email them pics of Har Sinai the yam suf the tayva it’s actually very interesting and it brings chizukApril 29, 2018 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1513182
“it also shows the cave of eliyaho hanavi in the same mountain”
-Isn’t mearat eliyahu in haifa?April 29, 2018 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1513180
Keeto- many are familiar with those pictures. Noone knows for sure if it’s in Saudi Arabia or Egypt there are 2 disputed locations. Secondly the rock that has a split I heard doesn’t match the location in Torah.
The gold chariots are old news as well and is only a possibility especially since there are disputed locations of the yam suf crossing. Some say bnei yisrael crossed somewhere which has elevated land inside the water and all sorts of theories.
Noah’s ark there is actually a very new and recent youtube video where someone captures video with a drone and is standing right near it. It is an unusual structure but I heard that it might just be a monumental structure that someone built to commemorate the event.
Also there is a video of people going up to Aharon Hakohens kever in Jordan on “hor hahar” which is a 6 hour hike up the mountain and they say it’s his tomb. Actually very exciting to watch look it up.
Yes these things give chizuk until you get disappointed by hearing disputed facts and theories that don’t match up. Besides we obviously believe in all these events regardless and don’t need the proof to be our chizuk and we know that many places have been covered up/destroyed over time or we don’t have any specific mesorah from generation to generation for whatever reason. Maybe they didn’t see any importance in it idk.
It is nice though to see these things in real life and close up, places and objects that we read and learn about in Torah, but it’s only secondary. Fascinating if you know for sure what you are looking at. To stand in a place where such great Tzaddikim stood so many years ago.April 29, 2018 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1513213
Litvish I can’t say the rock the Moshe rabaeinu hit is forsure the same as the pics but let me tell you I would bet money that it’s the same. The rocks are huge and a perfect split down the middle it’s def not cut it looks exactly as if water came gushing out and the rocks below have all smooth surfaces exactly if water was flowing except in not sure how long the water came out of the rock when did it stop ? When they left? When did they leave? The only question is that it seemed like the water came out from the actual Rock. In the pic it seems like it came from the ground under the rock and why would the Saudis have this mountain fenced off unlike any other mountain there? Even the name in Arabic refers to Moses and who spent so much time there trying to mimic Har Sinai and the egel hazov and the stones around the mountain as a gvul and burned rock correct me if im wrong but there are many shitas of where when and how where they crossed where the came out from? A rainbow ? An arch etc even kriyas yomsuf has alot of shitas but they can’t all be accurate tto the full degree this is not a case of shivim panim for example the menorah was either round or square I doubt both shitas cant be correct for the same menorah ? I don’t want to use the wrong words chas visholm my point is there maybe differant opinions where har Sinai or the rock or the sne but I doubt that the real location will fit in with all the differant shitas I THINK WHAT IM SAYING IS RIGHT I HOPE !!April 29, 2018 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1513207
Litvish You are 100 percent right we believe it happened without seeing any pics but for some reason seeing it there with all the details is fascinating I guess maybe it puts you in touch with things that seem so distant and the closest thing to reality we have is the hagadah But I guess the expression a picture is worth 1000 words has some truth to it from what I saw it seemed very very accurate !!! I can say that I know the parsha and the meforshim very well and from what I know it seemed pretty dead on and regarding the tayva it doesn’t seem man made but who knows. It served it’s purpose for me at least. You mentioned a differant video to watch with ahron hakhen. It’s just a cave?April 29, 2018 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1513208
On a differant topic did you ever hear what is the significance of split hooves and chews it’s kud? As well as scales? Regardless of its a siman or Siba did you ever wonder whats the shaychos with these simanin and being kosher ?April 29, 2018 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1513232GadolhadorahParticipant
Our emunah and bitachon is not and shouldn’t be conditional on finding physical/archeological evidence providing verification that all of the events described or alluded to in the torah are accurate. Yes, such findings are fascinating but if we go down that path, we are also at risk of undermining our beliefs whenever there is some new scientific evidence that the world is much “older” than we believe it to be in accordance with the torah’s description of briyas ha’olam or we go down the slippery slope of having to reconcile the literal words of the torah with new archeological finds or scientific discoveries.April 29, 2018 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1513231
Aharon Hakohen alleged kever is an actual structure that someone built as you will see in the video. Its atop a very high mountain.
As far as simanim I havent heard but Im sure there are many perushim on it. Maybe you can enlighten us.April 30, 2018 6:57 am at 6:57 am #1513271
When it comes to briyas haolam its such a deep concept that we cannot grasp. There are also many opinions on how long every day was. But obviously we go by the 5778 which is correct as of today.April 30, 2018 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1513411
Ok i saw this randomly in the rabenu bichaya and it just reminded me how small we are. It was one sentance that somehow i never heard of in my life . An animal that has split hoofs and chews it’s kud tells us everything we need to know about the animal. If the animal was a fighter like a lion it would have claws. Hashem wouldn’t give a lion a hoot. So obviously the animal with a hood is not a fighter or attacks other animals. And the only reason why an animal would need 4 stomachs or chew it’s due is because it eats grass which is hard to break down and animal that eats meat doesn’t need to chew it over and over. Therefore by seeing split hoofs and seeing it chew it’s cud. Tells you. The animal doesn’t have claws and chew it’s cud tells u it doesn’t it meat it eats grass !! I found that very smart and Im shocked no one knows this also the significance of scales on a fish is scales are like armor in the Gemara. And the top of the water is very warm for fish and they require to go deeper to stay cool. Scales protects the fish from the heat and allows it to stay closer to the top. Apparently the bottom is associated with more tumahApril 30, 2018 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1513424
And then there’s deeper explanations as well all pi Kabbalah For example the ground is tumah and the closer to the ground an animal is the more tumah transfers to it. That’s why even the 2 levels of shekeyz for small rodents that have legs or crawl on their stomach. Touching the ground with no legs is the biggest sheketz pherhaps animals like a lion put Thier hands and feet on the ground. But a hoof is a seperate part of the leg which means the actual foot isn’t touching the ground for the same reason why ppl walk on 2 legs vs animals. Because we’re half human and spiritual. So half of us is touching the ground but the top half that include the head and hands don’t touch the ground because it’s closer because of the part of us that’s holy that’s also why there are more kosher birds than non kosher. Because birds are in the air and don’t get the tumah from the ground. Except if it’s a bad natured or selfish etc otherwise the air is not tumah unlike the ground that’s also why a sheretz in a fruit that never left or touched the ground is not Assur but if it touched the ground it becomes asur even tho when it was in the fruit it was mutarApril 30, 2018 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1513456
listen here Jewish brethren, i personally have read the book mentioned above SEARCHING FOR SINAI BY RABBI ALEXANDRA HOOL and in it, the author tears apart literally tears apart some of the suggestions which have been mentioned above as to where the mountain is. In addition he provides mind blowing proofs to a completely new location of Mount Sinai THE REAL ONE. I have personally had discussions with the author, he is a prominent Torah scholar having been in learning for years, and he really knows what he is talking about. I highly recommend the book for anyone interested in the topic.
KOL TOVApril 30, 2018 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1513460
sorry kovod hatorah i mean RABBI ALEXANDER HOOL with an ERApril 30, 2018 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1513472
Gadolhadorah, The Malbim in the beginning of Parshas Noach explains that the flood created a chemical change so all carbon tests are inaccurate.April 30, 2018 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1513522
Gadolhadorah, did you see the Malbim beginning Bereishis 7:23
וימחו מן הארץ? It seems to me that he is saying we can not rely on calculations.April 30, 2018 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1513531
The desire to locate Har Sinai is the simple curiosity that we all have. There is no residual kedusha on Har Sinai, and going there will not accomplish anything in terms of our Avodas Hashem. Satisfying curiosity is a form of pleasure, and not a bad thing, but it does not become a mitzvah just because it feels good. If there was anything left at Har Sinai, there would have been a mesorah to go there, visit, and what to do there. There is not.
As for the stones that are sold with the image of a bush on it, that exist no matter how you cut it, there is a mesorah on that brought down by R’ Yaakov of Emden, and references the Medrash that states that this is Har Sinai. It is nice to own “a piece of the rock”. But it is not a דבר שבקדושה and one is not better by having one. Our connection to Torah is through learning and studying it, and following the guidance and instructions contained therein to govern our lives. The Torah is the gift, and goes wherever we go, and brings השראת השכינה to everyone who learns it. The original address is irrelevant.
The case of the מקום המקדש is obviously different, and it maintains its status as a מקום קדוש for eternity.April 30, 2018 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1513532
That’s refering to testing for age because you can’t base the way something aged properly because of the mabul had a big impact and for example may have erased the previous years or increased the age markings but what we are discussing is after the mabul not before no?April 30, 2018 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1513533
Decoy. Where does he say Har Sinai is? Not in Saudi Arabia?April 30, 2018 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1513590
Please stop yelling.
YW Moderator 25April 30, 2018 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1513589
He proves it must be in Saudi Arabia. one obvious proof why it cant be the common jabal mussa in the Sinai peninsula is the first posuk in beshalach. There the posuk clearly writes that Hashem was going to bring them the nearest way to isreal, obviously passing mount Sinai along the way, however this commonly accepted mountain is no where near along the way. Anyway keeto123 i recommend you buy the book.April 30, 2018 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1513992
@littleiknow”-There is no residual kedusha on Har Sinai”
– I don’t get it, how do we say there is no kedusha on har Sinai when some don’t even dispose of something that was used for a mitzvah such as lulav, ptilos from Chanukah menora, oil, esrog and so on. Furthermore chassidim who cherish their rebbeim makom tefilla,objects,chair or even anyone else who purchase glasses or other items that used to belong to gedolim.
Aren’t there stories in talmud when they said they can even learn from the walking stick of a certain Tanna since he was so holy?
How can we say that a place that the Torah was given on has no kedusha anymore?
The fact that the shechina was there, and that Moshe Rabbeinu walked there is already other worldly.April 30, 2018 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1514026
Good question. If there was a halacha of kedusha, there would be a more reliable mesora on the location of Har Sinai. There isn’t any. The locations that can be toured today are identified by people who approach the subject as a piece of history, using landmarks from references in various places, mostly psukim from around Tanach. There are also Arab names for various locations around Sinai desert that are suggestive. Yet, none of these constitute mesora. Yes, there were rabbonim that were impressed by the conclusions of these historians, but they did not opt to travel there, and the information was just something interesting. The posuk states clearly that the kedusha from before Matan Torah until after was intense, and it was ossur for human or animal to breach the borders to ascend even a drop. But במשך היובל המה יעלו בהר, implying that this intense kedusha was no longer.
There is a Medrash Tehilim that states that Matan Torah was on Har Hamoriah. It states that a piece of Har Hamoriah was taken and moved to Midbar Sinai, and it became Har Sinai. As is the case with many midrashim, it may help answer certain questions while leaving others unanswered. For instance, כפה עליהם הר כגיגית can refer to the lifting of the mountain above them, which could have been while it was in transit. Yet, they camped around the mountain prior to that. Puzzling. It may be that Har Sinai was restored to its original location, Har Hamoriah, after that, and therefore no one can identify it in the desert with certainty because it just isn’t there.
With all the research, the location in the desert that is most often considered Har Sinai, leaves us with many questions about authenticity. According to the posuk, there was a river/rivulet near the bottom of the mountain, referred to by the מעשה עגל. In the entire region there, there is not a drop of water to be found. I can accept with ease that the blossoming of flowers was temporary, but a body of water should still exist. Even dried river beds can be identified, and no one succeeded in finding that here.
I am with you in recognizing the feeling of kedusha with regards to objects that belonged to tzaddikim, and one would draw a קל וחומר to Har Sinai. The implication from the posuk does not support that, nor does the complete absence of any mesora suggest that there is what to find. My rebbe once commented that this was on purpose, that Torah does not have a physical address, and that one should recognize the מקום תורה as dependent on the study of it, which can be anywhere.April 30, 2018 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1514019
The Jews willingly forced themselves under the mountain as Rashi explains on והם תכו לרגלך. The mountain was lifted from the kedusha. If the Jews would not have accepted the Torah, the kedusha would have left and they would have been crushed underneath it. This is similar as the Yerushalmi says that Moshe Rabbenu was able to carry the luchas because the letters on it made it light, but by the golden calf the letters flew off and the luchas became heavy and he could not carry it anymore and had to drop it.May 1, 2018 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1514371
dear anyone who says they know where har sinai is because they found the special stones that when cut in half……….in particular keeto.
THERE IS A WHOLE REGION OF MOUNTAINS WITH THAT STONE CHARACTERISTICS.
Again, please stop yelling. We hear you just fine.May 1, 2018 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1514369
@littleiknow”-There is no residual kedusha on Har Sinai”
i dont understand you if there is no kedusha at all can you pls xplain to me why in melochim the posuk tells us that Eliyahu hanavi runs to mount Sinai to escape people chasing him could he have not found another mountain. i certainly disagree with you.May 1, 2018 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #1514375
what has been stated above about the top of the mountain being black from the shechinah, is highly uncompelling in my opinion and the opinion of RABBI ALEXANDER HOOL .
the shechinah was a spiritual fire it would not burn the mountain just like by the burning bush the bush wasnt being consumed.May 1, 2018 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1514468
You wrote: “why in melochim the posuk tells us that Eliyahu Hanavi runs to mount Sinai to escape people chasing him”
It seems that the trek to Har Choreiv was an instruction from Hashem, not the escape route that Eliyahu chose. His intention was to get into the desert where Ach’av wouldn’t find him. This is not stated openly in the psukim there, but the context suggests that. I might offer that the reason why to Har Sinai was that the message of קולות וברקים of מתן תורה has a parallel to the רוח ואש of the experience Eliyahu would have there. Both carried the message that the drama was not a permanent thing, and that קנאות has only a limited place. Since Eliyahu was insistent that this mode continue, Hashem instructed him to anoint his successor, אלישע.May 1, 2018 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1514501
Decoy. Your not reading anything in writing. I didn’t say a word about the stone of the mountain being split to reveal designs. I said just the opposite!!!!! I don’t belivee Har Sinai is in the Sinai peninsulah o believe it’s in Saudi Arabia. The same as the book claims so in not sure why you keep saying that I think it’s the mountain with the designs on the inside of the rock or in Sinai peninsulah in my humble opinion i believe it’s in Saudi Arabia and it’s fenced all around it with no trespassing signs in Arabic and English and it’s only my opinion. Regardless of there’s kedusha there or not regardless if you shouldn’t need it to have Aminah. Regardless of anything I think it’s simply very “cool” to see it it’s that simple. I completely disagree with your theroy that there is no defusha there!!! There’s kedusha in a yarmulkah or a shirt that was worn by the chafetz Chaim for example there’s kedusha in your esrog that was used for a mitzvah there’s kedusha that was connected to anything kodosh !!!! Kidusha is not only spiritual it’s physical to if your eyes are kodosh to see it your going to tell me for a second that the mountain that the Torah was given on. The mountain that hashem came down to the mountain that touched the shechina is just reg earth?? The senah has no kedusha even the frogs in mitzrayom that made a kidusha Hashem has kedusha your suckah has kedusha !!! It says the reason why you don’t say Shalom Aleichem on shabos Chol hamoed suckos is because the malachim won’t come into the suckah because they are scared of the shechina there so maybe there’s no din kedusha because Har sinei won’t be used again like Har habois so there’s no need to preserve the kedusha from getting Tomah bit to say Har Sinai is a reg mountain and nothing to get inspired about is insane halavai I should have 1 percent of the dirtest rock on Har Sinai that mountain was chosen to give the Torah on. That alone makes it special even if Hashem didn’t come down that mountain was chosen by Hashem to make the biggest even on history. If u touched that mountain you died !!! Ifbu touch Har haboayos. U don’t die. Your mechyav missah but you don’t die. But Har Sinai was instant death. You think that just goes way? I bet you the ruach hatumah wouldn’t think about touching Har Sinai anyway. Just saying….May 1, 2018 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1514504
And who told you that spiritual fires don’t burn? And if your source is nadav and avihu it’s diffeant because it went on thru Thier nose so it didn’t burn Thier clothing but where does it say spiritual fires don’t burn physical things. The amud haesh didn’t burn things? It did how about the birds that got flew over o think it was shmaya and Natalia. Those birds didn’t burn? Was that not a spiritual fire? I say opinions I don’t say things as if I know like Har Sinai has no kedusha or spiritual fires don’t burn. You need to quote a source before saying such silly comments in my opinion from the sounds of it. There are a few ppl here that actually have alot of uedios so please don’t make assumptions without either prefacing it as an opinion or bringing a valid source to back up your strong statements. ThanksMay 1, 2018 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1514505
IM sorry about my last comment I didn’t realize you said it was your opinion. And quoted someone I appoligize I didn’t read it properlyMay 2, 2018 7:43 am at 7:43 am #1514611justanotherposhiteryidParticipant
is this rabbi, alexandra hool orthodox???May 2, 2018 8:40 am at 8:40 am #1514613justanotherposhiteryidParticipant
keeto123 im very confused if you hold you have to say its your opinion or otherwise bring sources please explain the following
“There’s kedusha in a yarmulkah or a shirt that was worn by the chafetz Chaim for example there’s kedusha in your esrog that was used for a mitzvah there’s kedusha that was connected to anything kodosh !!!! ”
my bold opinions which borders on aggresive, please be aware you are doing it yourselfMay 2, 2018 8:41 am at 8:41 am #1514625
How dare you ask that. OF COURSE.
he is an outstanding talmd chocham i have met him personally. he learnt in gateshead yeshivah for many years and has been in ponevezh kollel for over 20 YEARS. he is the author of The challenge of Jewish history a best seller which recieved a haskama from rav belsky. he has written other seforim and recieved other haskamas from gedolim including reb moshe sturnbuch!
kvod hatorah pls apologize.May 2, 2018 9:01 am at 9:01 am #1514644
anyway i dont understand any suggestions as to where the mountain is as the medrash says har sinai was 500 amos which is around 247 metres. are you trying to tell me that the mountains suggested fit those measurements.
however the holy scholar mentioned above Rabbi Alexander Hool locates a mountain which must be the real loction as this problem amongst many other ones are solved.May 2, 2018 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1514653
IM TERRIBLY SORRY, for being so violent on this coffee room in particular to keeto123 and justanotherposhuteryid. i hope you all forgive me. i was wrong how were you meant to know that he was orthedox. i think i should leave this discussion as i take it to personal and i am a bit to aggresive for a coffee room. kol tov
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.