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Ard. Do you have a point to refute what I said cuz I’m arguing _for_ Torah misinai and you still have no argument only insults
Ard, calling me names don’t change facts. Call me something substantial like someone who isn’t a sheep like you.
Ard it can only _be_ a rulebook if it makes sense. Ard. Not wanting to argue cuz your cliquey mentality can’t handle a difference of opinion means I’m going to assume that you really have no real argument. No I don’t agree it’s truth as it takes the foundation it’s stands on, the written word and takes a lot of it out of context. If the foundation of the Torah shebaal peh is the written word shouldn’t it fallow what the written word says? Second….why also do none of the biblical figures keep the oral tradition at all? If it really was Torah misinai and why is it that all the rules of Torah she baal peh fallow every single red flag of manipulation
Ard halacha is negotiable because we have free will to choose what we keep and what we don’t same way we have free will to cross the street. You can believe it’s set in stone but _nothing_ is set in stone except reality itself. The sky is blue is set in stone. Stealing is wrong is set in stone. But s persons opinion first needs to go through channels of credibility to _be_ the truth. Fallowing an authority figure blindly doesn’t make something true sorry. G-ds word can be tested. G-D doesn’t even write the Bible in first person. It’s written as a story form so you can look in it and learn lessons from it. Despite how scary it comes across it’s still doesn’t even tell you directly what to do. Only human beings that seek to control use manipulative language, fear mongering and take things out of context to push agendas to force their will on people..G-d Himself knows His creation and speaks directly to human nature. You will know the tree by its fruits. The fruits of certain opinions and passed down things is fear. Manipulation and sheep mentality. _that_ is not G-d. G-d is despline, _love_ concepts yada yada yada
Also defined laws are already written in the written word. Why do we need more rules. And it also says do not add or subtract to my word. So who gives us the authority to add. The point is tho I do appreciate Torah shebaal peh and our very rich heritage, the truth will always stand stronger then the manipulations of whichever authority figure had a power grab during the temples distraction cuz if not biblical figure kept Torah shebaal peh and it was only suddenly written down at a certain period in time by people who claim to be like G-ds cuz they were so “holy” and can’t be questioned, what was their agenda and why are they hiding from us the simple truth
Regardless ard your arguments were so weak. Maybe stop eating from the tree of knowledge of good an evil. Aka reading books. Or learning stuff not from people with experience but people with an agenda for control.
I am great enough because every single person was inbued with common sense and a moral filter. Given us by Devine right. When you read a book you use discernment on every level with every person and with every place and with everything even G-d expects you to discern for yourself what the truth is cuz he created you and knows how he designed you. Only normal corrupt individuals looking for control try to control a population through fear. And manipulation. That’s a human attribute that cannot and will never be something G-d does. So who wrote the Torah. Moshe brought it down from sania. Yes. But whoever added to G-ds word had an agenda. They cut pieces and took things that weren’t there to create some form of control. Anyone with half a brain can see it. Wakeup. Even our rituals are coming from roots in sorcery. Havadala. They use fire. Nails, cloves. That is some form of spiritual sorcery. Just cuz you want to be a sheep doesn’t mean you know anything at all. Please start to live in reality. Cuz reality itself will teach you things people will hide from you. Start learning and living same way you learned what the color green is. Go look at some trees to discern different colors and stop crying that an authority figure can’t teach you abc cuz you don’t want to learn about nuance and truth. Actual truth
I’m not saying I don’t appreciate the beauty of our mesorah the reason why I value it at all is because it is beautiful but it does not on any level whatsoever fallow common sense or read the actual written law in context. So sorry. I speak truth even if it’s a wonderful way of life
I am very happy to be called a sheep. וְאַתֵּ֥ן צֹאנִ֛י צֹ֥אן מַרְעִיתִ֖י אָדָ֣ם אַתֶּ֑ם אֲנִי֙ אֱלֹ֣הֵיכֶ֔ם נְאֻ֖ם אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִֽה
Baaa.
Oh come on avram. You don’t have your own opinions about life. Ye right. What about the political arena. Imagine I told you you have to think a certain way. I know deep down you think whatever you think you just can’t admit it and don’t lie that your happy to be a sheep. Your just pandering to what you were told to say your whole life now you can use the “slogan” and feel like you fit in your doing the “right” thing. None in the right mind wants to be called a sheep. Give me a break
And that whole sentence has more to do with the Shepard guiding his sheep and being part of klal and a loving G-d. Being a “sheep” euphemism means not having a brain and being dumb. Very different
Avram just stop..noone is happy being called a sheep. I mean the way you twist yourself to fit into your belief system. Use your brains
none2.0,
“and don’t lie that your happy to be a sheep. Your just pandering to what you were told to say your whole life now you can use the “slogan” and feel like you fit in your doing the “right” thing. None in the right mind wants to be called a sheep.”
To quote Tolkien: “That word comes too oft and easy from your lips … I do not lie.” And you know nothing about my life or what I was told or taught. Call me a sheep! יְהֹוָ֥ה רֹ֜עִ֗י לֹ֣א אֶחְסָֽר
Baaa.
none2.0,
“I mean the way you twist yourself to fit into your belief system. Use your brains”
Twist myself? Rather, say improve myself. Your philosophy that everything one needs to interpret life and Hashem is already in your brain is the philosophy of a beast. A beast’s only way to relate to Hashem and the world is through its instincts and desires. A beast remains a beast, and cannot become more than that. More is expected of a human being. We can delay gratification. We can sacrifice for a greater good. And we can change our mindset and come to love what we once hated, and hate what we once loved. So choose well. And keep calling me a sheep, but remember also אָדָ֣ם אַתֶּ֑ם. Not a חַיָּֽה־רָעָ֖ה.
Baaa.
none2.0,
“Being a “sheep” euphemism means not having a brain and being dumb.”
Aha, so you’re intending to insult?
Baaa.
Human beings cannot delay needs without consequences. Can you delay eating? For a time maybe. But then your body breaks down. Can you delay sleeping for a time but then your body breaks down. Controlling and delaying your natural inclinations which is actually your human needs has moral consequences. Being too stringent with self actually over time breaks down the mind and spirit and separated a person from self. I understand why your saying beast and using that horrid word to make it as if being human and having needs makes a person a mindster. But let’s take an example that fits and see how your belief system, even though it’s filled with discipline separates a person from self. Actually the Devine, your Devine connection is connected to self. A tree without roots cannot grow. A person without a home cannot survive. A human being without a self is a slav to the whims of someone else’s belief system. Yes it’s healthy to have responsibilities. And healthy to have boundaries and healthy to have morals. But to constantly shut down yourself for another’s opinion or way of thinking and living a life outside of alignment with self in all things lead a person to emptiness and a state of unrest. Galus is in the mind. You want peace. Bring yourself back into alignment with self and G-d. How do you know what you like and dislike if you don’t first listen to the voice inside your heart how do you know what foods to eat if you don’t listen to your soul. Imagine your whole life being on a diet. Sounds like he ll to me
You are so dead wrong cuz that is the evil inclinations telling you to love what you hate and hate what you love. What about respecting yourself and limiting yourself in the ways that work for you. why would a loving G-d create you with a very specific design and then tell you to overcome your nature. This is not about being an animal this about not overextending your energy in a way that becomes a burden overtime. You know it’s not good for man to be alone. If a man is alone for too long his mind breaks down. His body breaks down. His thoughts become neorotic. His soul and entire system cannot handle being alone. We were also designed to be falable in different areas so when someone comes into our lives we naturaly complement the things we aren’t good at so two halves become a whole. Imagine I told you to overcome your nature and do everything alone. The stress and the hardship your life will take will be beyond what you were designed to handle. And then imagine I told you your feelings of stress is just the “yerzer hara” do you not see the game the monster (the yerzer hara which is the voice of manipulation) is playing on _you_. I’m not talking about being responsible I’m taking about selling your soul for the “good” of others. Remind me what communism is. Yes that’s a form of communism albiet with self.
I mean is liking a specific color that’s different then the klal? Is that evil? Is that a monster. Like give me a break
That’s where your wrong again. More is not expected of you actually. G-d says do not add to my word. Aka do not add laws that were not there. Do not add to nature. Do not add at all..hello. We pick and choose what we listen to don’t we.
G-d never says change your nature He says this is what I want _you_ to do. You the real you. He even allows us to choose How we do certain mitzvos unlike the controlling add on we got over the last 2000 years biblically shabbas was very simple. “Do not work on Sabbath, make Sabbath holy” that gives “you” room to decide how your going to make G-d proud. “Take the first of your fruits” G-d doesn’t control every aspect like humans try to do cuz He wants You to bring him something your proud of. That’s your free will. He doesn’t tell you the size and how large he says bring the first of your fruits. If you want to say G-d also writes out the lemed tes melachos it’s there to reiterate what G-d is saying for example. Let’s say I have a school and I say. Lights out at this hour. Then I say that means no brushing your teeth, no snoozing, no walking the halls, no nonsense. You need to read the book in context. Not make it all about rules. We are humans not machines my goodness. The lemed tes melachos is just reiterating what G-d is saying it’s not confining your spirit to set of laws. Stop taking the entire book out of context
none2.0,
“Can you delay eating? For a time maybe. But then your body breaks down. Can you delay sleeping for a time but then your body breaks down.”
Most people can absolutely delay eating and sleeping. 6 fast days and the occasional late night like the seder nights or tikkun leil Shavuos are not harmful and do not cause the body to break down. In fact, many dieticians now say that occasional fasting is good for the body. If, during a fast, someone begins to feel ill, he takes measures to protect his body as truly needed. Some people have constitutions or circumstances that are different, and fasting for them is dangerous. They are not required to fast, and in some cases a rabbi will have to adjure them to eat on the fast day because they don’t want to break the fast. Also, the Chofetz Chaim would walk into his beis medrash at night and send the yeshiva students trying to pry their eyes open to learn all night to bed. So I don’t know what belief system you’re talking about that doesn’t take bodily needs into account. It’s certainly not mine.
“Controlling and delaying your natural inclinations which is actually your human needs has moral consequences.”
You are confusing an inclination with a need. They are not the same thing. Some people have an inclination to become physically violent towards anyone who they feel has insulted them. Shouldn’t this inclination be suppressed, even if the person gets a stomachache over it? There’s moral consequences to not controlling that inclination! And some people have needs with no accompanying inclination. Many people cannot clearly perceive their thirst, and can end up dangerously dehydrated before they realize something is wrong. My belief system does not require me to ignore needs, but does expect me to resist bad inclinations. And better for your soul than resisting bad inclinations all the time is to improve yourself so those inclinations wane!
“Being too stringent with self actually over time breaks down the mind and spirit and separated a person from self.”
Moreso does a lack of stringency.
“I understand why your saying beast and using that horrid word to make it as if being human and having needs makes a person a mindster.”
Not at all. I know dogs that are affectionate with their owners, and that are gentle and happy creatures overall. Others are aggressive and bite. The thing is that dogs can only live by their inclinations, and they cannot change their inclinations. They are trained by directing their inclinations – you command them to “leave it” when they see a treat on the table, and then reward them with a better treat. You cannot explain to a dog that it’s morally wrong to take food from the table that is not theirs. And that’s ok for a dog. A true monster is a human being who only lives by and never changes his inclinations, because he can bring to bear his vast human intellect to further his bad inclinations. Dogs, for example, cannot take vengeance.
“it’s filled with discipline separates a person from self.”
Discipline doesn’t separate a person from self, it brings him closer to a better self.
“But to constantly shut down yourself for another’s opinion or way of thinking”
That’s the thing. It’s not another’s opinion or way of thinking. It’s mine. I have made it my own.
“Imagine your whole life being on a diet. Sounds like he ll to me”
That’s why it’s better to develop a healthy and consistent lifestyle overall rather than gorge on whatever sugary or fried things look and taste so good in the moment until you can’t see your feet under your belly, and then desperately try to slim down on an unsustainable and unpleasant diet. A healthy lifestyle allows for occasional sugary foods or fried foods. But in recognition that they are treats, not staples, and in recognition that even with treats you can choose healthier. Yiddishkeit is a lot like this – a healthy and consistent lifestyle for your neshama that binds you to Hashem.
none2.0,
“why would a loving G-d create you with a very specific design and then tell you to overcome your nature.”
This is a great question! These are my thoughts. Hashem wants us to be aware of Him and to bind ourselves to Him. To help us with this, He created us with needs. Someone with needs must turn to a provider. He also created us with an ability to experience pleasure. I believe this shows that He loves us – He wants us to feel pleasure! I can experience that myself when I give my children chocolate or a new toy. Oh to see the delight in their eyes! I sit with them sometimes when they eat breakfast. They hum while they eat! This is also why zoos have feeding stations where guests can give food to the animals. Something happened though very early on in the history of mankind. Adam Harishon, the first man, ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. This caused changes in us from that very specific design Hashem originally created. We now judge for ourselves good and bad, and naturally we equate pleasure with good, and lack of pleasure bad. But that’s not how we were originally designed, and because of that we are out of sync with our true spiritual and even physical needs.
“Imagine I told you to overcome your nature and do everything alone. The stress and the hardship your life will take will be beyond what you were designed to handle.”
Imagine I told you to walk on your nose. This whole point is irrelevant, because Yiddishkeit doesn’t demand you to be alone, or whatever other awful things you think up. That’s why you’re left scrambling for weird things to make your points. The truth is, Yiddishkeit provides a kosher way to experience almost every inclination.
none2.0,
“More is not expected of you actually.”
If someone were to challenge me to state what the polar opposite of Torah was in one sentence, I think this would be it.
“Aka do not add laws that were not there.”
Open up the megillas Esther and see what Mordechai and Esther did at the end. They sent letters out telling the Jews to do mishloach manos, matanos le’evyonim, and a mishte on Purim from then on. And we do it to this day. Do you condemn them for that? Do you know better than them?
none2.0,
“shabbas was very simple. “Do not work on Sabbath, make Sabbath holy” that gives “you” room to decide how your going to make G-d proud.”
Tell that to the guy who was stoned to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath (see the 15th perek of Bamidbar, we just read the Shabbos before last in parshas Shelach). It wasn’t those evil controlling people who decided to stone him either. They found him and asked Hashem what to do, and He commanded them to stone him! Now tell me where in the super easy to understand English/Hebrew Bible that everyone can read and interpret for themselves did it say to not gather wood on the Sabbath?? Don’t you think that would have been an important little detail to include?
First of all gathering wood is working lol
Your so slow. It’s like talking to a wall. I have a school I say. Curfew is, at 10:00 no walking the halls, no congregating, no doing xyz. You were found in the hallway. Do you skip all the other parts and miss the whole framework of every point I bring?
Oh but I said. Read the _whole_ message. Understand the entire thing. Stop nitpicking
You love finding problems. And purposely missing the point. How bout nit pick one word from this entire sentence and miss the point again
Your reading the wrong Torah then lol. Mordichai and Esther’s laws don’t control our entirety of our marriages and every day lives and halacha does. Do you miss the point. Purposely Everytime
You are wrong again. g-d created us as free agents. As much as your beleif system sounds good and “righteous” on paper. You are wrong again. Reality shows something very different then what you say. If G-d wanted us to have such a an unhealthy relationship with him where we had no self He wouldn’t have created us
Occasional fasting. Notice the word occasional. Were you to fast everyday your body would begin to break down. You can drink unhelathy foods once in a while but were you to do it everyday as a habit you will get sick. The point is an overly critical life is not healthy as your whole psychosomatic internal clock becomes so controlled and unhappy.
I’ve never seen a dog happy that was controlled. Most dogs that are controlled are actually unhappy. Codependent. A dog who is independent and respected in the household is much happier.
Making someone else’s opinion your own doesn’t mean it’s your own oppionion it means Everytime you do something a little peace of your true self gets squished down again. And again cuz your forcing yourself to agree either through fear or control to something you may deep down not actually agree with
People only eat sugary fried things when there’s something missing in their life and when their trying to fill a need or their body actually needs the date but can’t find it in a healthy manner. You can’t only eat sugary fatty things it’s like eating ice cream all day. Eventually you want something else. They did a study that showed how if you put a rat in an empty cage and you give it a bottle of drugs and regular wate it always chooses the drugs and dies. But if you put the rat in a healthy environment with freinds and good food it always chooses the water. We choose what we need. Have you ever tried to eat fried foods all day. It’s prob only done by people who have no purpose.
I love how you think tho that I don’t believe in descipline. I do believe in Devine descipline, when you actually deserve it. In real life. Also I believe in descipline in your own life _when you need it_ or when you need to get up and do what you have to do. But I don’t believe in pushing yourself for someone else’s way of thinking that’s not honoring yourself. And your own needs. G-d is like a parent. When you cross the street and your in danger. He says uh uh don’t go there. When you are rebellious he gives you an onesh. It’s not punishment it’s descipline there’s a difference. It’s easier to respect an authority figure who loves you and who is just then to take a human intrepreation of something that generally is not in context with real life and real needs and fellow that. When G-d says do not steal for _i_ am G-d He is activating a cerebral innate instinct inside us that respects authority. But an authority above us. Which is G-d himself. No human can match G-d.
none2.0,
“First of all gathering wood is working lol “
Who says? Maybe I’m a plumber, and my heart tells me that “do not work” means I should not do my plumbing job on the Sabbath, and instead focus on my family. And my wife is cold, and I could go gather up some sticks to warm up the fireplace for her (with an already kindled fire)? I’m not making this interpretation up, I’ve met people who think this is what “work” means in relation to the Sabbath. Yet the guy was executed for it. Sure after he’s dead now we know that gathering sticks is work, but too bad nobody told him! Seems unfair, doesn’t it?
You keep telling me to “use my brain” to interpret these commandments, but you are not doing that. Every time I press a question you fall back onto an interpretation that’s from Torah she’baal peh. Or you just insult me.
none2.0,
“Your so slow. It’s like talking to a wall.”
You wrote above that we can judge a tree by its fruits. That’s from a passage in the Christian gospels, the book of Matthew 7:15-20 to be precise. Maybe that’s revealing of your background. But whatever. After yet another round of personal attacks instead of any cogent response to some pretty basic questions, I must say I’m not too impressed with the fruit you’re revealing.
If you ran a school and told the kids “curfew is at 10” and expect the kids to know a priori what a curfew is, and punish a kid severely for being in the hallway after 10 for any reason, you’d have a nightmare school. Obviously you’ve never worked with kids. Or people. Thank G-d that His Torah, and the world He created isn’t anything like you think it is.
I see no reason to continue this debate.
Ok so there is a little bit of a misunderstanding. But let me first say do you know what basic words mean? What does hi mean..what does “I’ll be at the store at 10:00” mean..certain words you can’t misinterpret. Also your right the “lamed tes melachos were there to reiterate what G-d meant. I just don’t think it’s in the way _we_ interpreted it. Like “your not allowed to” not it was more like. Ok do not work on shabbas! No sewing. No trimming. No gathering. Anyone who doesn’t listen is in trouble. I think the way we intrpret it instead of it being something that makes sense we technicalized it too much. And made it into a fear based thing. The best example is, I Own a store.
Right as if you know my background. I was under the impression that was in the Torah. Now, if a kid doesn’t know what the word curfew is and what 10:00 is their special needs.
Your really trying to make it as if humans can’t interpret basic speech. Hi the Torah was written in the most basic form of language. Ok? Everything is as simple as they come… But your missing the fundamental principle of the word concepts cuz you love to get too technical for your own good. Look at the concepts written in there and mirror them with real life..they fit exactly. No human can write that
tree by fruits – I think we have similar allusions in our traditions. Pirkei Avot, 5:19 compare students of Avraham with students of Bilaam. Some explain that teachers themselves both might look respectful, but students show what they were really teaching.
“Critical thinking is the process of analyzing available facts, evidence, observations, and arguments to make sound conclusions or informed choices. It involves recognizing underlying assumptions, providing justifications for ideas and actions, evaluating these justifications through comparisons with varying perspectives, and assessing their rationality and potential consequences”
“However, excessive conformity can lead to suppressing one’s authentic thoughts and feelings, causing inner conflict and distress.
This can be particularly detrimental when conformity is driven by low self-esteem, as it can negatively impact self-worth and self-image.Forced or pressured conformity, especially to societal or traditional paths, can be detrimental to one’s well-being, leading to increased stress, depression, and anxiety.
This pressure can be especially harmful when individuals feel they are not following a path that aligns with their true selves.
In some cases, conformity can also lead to non-adaptable behaviors, which can exacerbate mental health issues”Anyways confirming your will in general to someone’s else will is not going to lead to synchronicity with self. This is why people fight with their “yetZer hara” all day cuz they are living in such a different reality then what and who they really are created a huge divide between heart and mind. This creates extreme imbalances and hardship in the soul. Which essentially you can say is a form of galus
Moral principles of right and wrong and being basic. And not technalizing things and getting back to simple reality and morality actually grounds the soul back to reality and dissipates this crazy divide. When G-d gave us the Torah the first story in there is a story that actually applies to all of us because the garden of Eden is actually a state of mind. The rivers in Eden I believe or have heard are actually certain parts of the brain the brain is shaped as a tree. So if you eat from the “tree of “knowledge” of good and bad which is literally “knowing” good and bad. Tree being a euphemism, you will actually change your state of mind and get thrown into a form of disconnect between mine and spirit. Because knowledge isn’t wisdom. It’s delusion until grounded with wisdom in reality. So religion as lovely as it is. Took moral principles and added so many layers it’s hard to _ground_ it’s knowledge in reality and _that_ creates the disconnect between body and soul
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