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The following exchange was posted several days ago in the coffee room. It began when Shimon Katz (who I often agree with) butted into a debate between ZSK (who I respect although we often disagree) and SomeJew (who we all know and love…) [To be fair, I also butted into the same debate, and called out the כפירה שבו, but more בקיצור.] ZSK correctly pointed out (in a subsequent post) that Shimon was going off topic. Therefore, I chose to copy the relevant piece to a new thread, because of the very critical issues it touched on, that many ostensibly Chareidi Jews seem to be confused about.
So here it is: [In two places in Shimon’s rebuttal, I added information in square parentheses.]
ZSK: As for “sending their children off to die in wars… just like the non-Jewish nations”. For 2,000 years, Jewish children were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army. To imply that there is no difference between a Jew dying as a helpless victim of a Cossack and a Jew dying as a soldier defending EY is an insult to the Kedoshim. עד כאן ZSK.
Shimon K: There are multiple problems with this string of non-sequiturs (including כפירה). Let’s focus for now on the circular reasoning. Why is a “Jew dying as a soldier defending EY” (actually, defending the secular country of Israel) fundamentally any different than “the non-Jewish nations sending their children off to die in wars” defending THEIR nations? Why is there any religious significance or any other ערך מוסף specifically when one dies in defense of Israel. Don’t tell me stories about “protecting Jews”. There are plenty of Jews protected by the US Army (including those in Israel…) Your warped redefinition of קדוש is limited to defense of a very specific political entity that RZ have imbued with Messianic levels of קדושה, even though its founders and leaders don’t even believe in קדושה altogether, (although that never stopped them from making emotional references to קדושים when it suited their purposes.) Why is that not an insult to the REAL קדושים who died to remain faithful to Hashem and His Torah? Remember that up until the Holocaust, almost without exception, there was always an ‘escape clause’ of adopting the non-Jewish religion, something countless Jews were PROUD to be “slaughtered like sheep” NOT to do. Those are our REAL Kedoshim and Giborim הכובש את יצרו, who we make a מי שברך for (right before you proudly make the מי שברך for the State envisioned by [Herzl] the ימח שמו וזכרו who, as per his own diary, wanted to bring כלל ישראל to convert to Catholicism, before he switched to nationalism, and later his children became משומדים without being forced.) A Jew (or Druze or Arab volunteer) who dies for Israel (only two-thirds of which is even located inside about half of “EY”) is not religiously different than an American soldier who dies for America (which is home to more Jews…)
אלא מאי, your problem isn’t with the spilling of Jewish blood. Your problem is with “helplessness”. With “like sheep to the slaughter” Something we proudly say in Davening as a זכות for us – ובכל זאת שמך לא שכחנו. The Zionists did the “best” job of להשכיחם שמך ever. But they didn’t like the sheep stuff… So they made up a new ethos of “no more sheep” and also no more ״שמך לא שכחנו״ Chas Veshalom. Why do you, and so many more RZ like you, who Daven every day, and say these words every Monday and Thursday, buy into a bogus ideology that says the exact opposite? Sounds a lot like the title of this thread [The Dissonance of Redemption], doesn’t it?
We are sheep for the slaughter and proud of it, as long as ובכל זאת שמך לא שכחנו. And if ח״ו someone DOES forget Hashem ר״ל, no amount of muscle and bravery makes him worthy of any sort of honor. Don’t even start building straw man arguments about “what if he dies protecting Jews”. Without Hashem, someone like that could easily kill Jews or send Jews to die in order to further the cause he believes in and is ready to die for. You know well that such things have actually happened. עד כאן Shimon Katz.
מכאן ואילך YYA:
As Shimon pointed out, there are two problems here. Number one is blaming Jewish suffering and death on “not having an army”. Before we even begin to discuss the actual Halacha and Hashkafa of what the Neviim and Chachamim have to say about this, let’s review a little history. At the time of the חורבן בית המקדש, both the First and the Second, there was a Jewish army. At the time of Churban Beitar – Bar Kochva there was a formidable army that even the Romans were freaked out by. That didn’t stop more than a million Jewish deaths in each of those episodes. More than were killed at any one time during the subsequent 1800 years that we didn’t have an army, except during the Holocaust. Not because they didn’t have muscles or weapons. Because the Ribbono Shel Olam decided not to let them win.
But we need not go there. There are literally hundreds of places in Tanach and Chazal, in the Siddur and in the Chumash, in Krias Shema and written on our Tefillin and Mezuzos, that teach us that Jewish suffering and bloodshed is NOT because of political or military factors, but because of aveiros. ומפני חטאינו גלינו מארצינו. Period. End of discussion. Or so it should be. As it happened, ZSK took great offense at this accusation of כפירה, and said:
(I haven’t violated any of the 13 principles, whether short or long version, or anything in any of Rambam’s writings)
OK. Let us assume לצורך העניין that we ONLY pasken like the Rambam. So be it. What about this:
הלכות תענית פרק א הלכה ג
מִצְוַת עֲשֵׂה מִן הַתּוֹרָה לִזְעֹק וּלְהָרִיעַ בַּחֲצוֹצְרוֹת עַל כָּל צָרָה שֶׁתָּבוֹא עַל הַצִּבּוּר. שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (במדבר י ט) “עַל הַצַּר הַצֹּרֵר אֶתְכֶם וַהֲרֵעֹתֶם בַּחֲצֹצְרוֹת”. כְּלוֹמַר כָּל דָּבָר שֶׁיָּצֵר לָכֶם כְּגוֹן בַּצֹּרֶת וְדֶבֶר וְאַרְבֶּה וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶן זַעֲקוּ עֲלֵיהֶן וְהָרִיעוּ:
וְדָבָר זֶה מִדַּרְכֵי הַתְּשׁוּבָה הוּא. שֶׁבִּזְמַן שֶׁתָּבוֹא צָרָה וְיִזְעֲקוּ עָלֶיהָ וְיָרִיעוּ יֵדְעוּ הַכּל שֶׁבִּגְלַל מַעֲשֵׂיהֶם הָרָעִים הוּרַע לָהֶן כַּכָּתוּב (ירמיה ה כה) “עֲוֹנוֹתֵיכֶם הִטּוּ” וְגוֹ’. וְזֶה הוּא שֶׁיִּגְרֹם לָהֶם לְהָסִיר הַצָּרָה מֵעֲלֵיהֶם:
אֲבָל אִם לֹא יִזְעֲקוּ וְלֹא יָרִיעוּ אֶלָּא יֹאמְרוּ דָּבָר זֶה מִמִּנְהַג הָעוֹלָם אֵרַע לָנוּ וְצָרָה זוֹ נִקְרָה נִקְרֵית. הֲרֵי זוֹ דֶּרֶךְ אַכְזָרִיּוּת וְגוֹרֶמֶת לָהֶם לְהִדַּבֵּק בְּמַעֲשֵׂיהֶם הָרָעִים. וְתוֹסִיף הַצָּרָה צָרוֹת אֲחֵרוֹת. הוּא שֶׁכָּתוּב בַּתּוֹרָה (ויקרא כו כז) “וַהֲלַכְתֶּם עִמִּי בְּקֶרִי” (ויקרא כו כח) “וְהָלַכְתִּי גַּם אֲנִי עִמָּכֶם בַּחֲמַת קֶרִי”. כְּלוֹמַר כְּשֶׁאָבִיא עֲלֵיכֶם צָרָה כְּדֵי שֶׁתָּשׁוּבוּ אִם תֹּאמְרוּ שֶׁהִיא קֶרִי אוֹסִיף לָכֶם חֲמַת אוֹתוֹ קֶרִי:Note that the pashut p’shat in the פסוק that the Rambam brings is referring to actual WAR ובבא מלחמה בארצכם על הצר וגו׳, the other things are learned through היקש. Note also that the Rambam is referring EVEN to a time when we had a real Halachic Jewish army and were allowed to and required to engage in combat. But if someone blames the war on political or military חשבונות, not on בגלל מעשיהם הרעים, then he is accused of cruelty and callousness and brings upon Klal Yisroel more problem ר״ל. The Rambam further says explicitly that if we attribute our problems to our aveiros הוא שיגרום להם להסיר הצרה מעליהם. If someone doesn’t BELIEVE in this (as opposed to someone who does believe, but does what he wants because of weakness), then he violates the sixth (belief in the words of Nevim, as in כי אם עוונותיכם i.e. ONLY עוונותיכם), seventh (belief in Toras Moshe in ALL OF ITS DETAILS), and eighth (the fidelity of the Mesorah that teaches us how to understand the Pesukim) Ikkarim like anyone who doesn’t accept EVEN ONE DETAIL of ANYTHING in the Torah (if he does it as a matter of principle and lack of belief, i.e. in this case because he subscribes to a different Torah called Zionism.)
I challenge anyone to come up with ANY source in כל התורה כולה that Jewish suffering and death is because we didn’t have an army. Hegel, Nietzsche and Jabotinsky are not acceptable sources…
Next sentence next problem:
ZSK: “To imply that there is no difference between a Jew dying as a helpless victim of a Cossack and a Jew dying as a soldier defending EY is an insult to the Kedoshim” עד כאן ZSK.
Please read Shimon Katz’s rebuttal of this, which is really just a tiny sampler of Chazal, and then please explain, from a purely Jewish standpoint, why there is anything honorable about ‘going down fighting’. Especially for a secular cause, as opposed to the “helpless sheep” who CHOSE to give their lives rather than accept a foreign religion.
Then, aside from Shimon’s questions, please address the following additional questions:
1. Is a Druze or Arab who “died as a soldier defending EY” also a קדוש? If not, why not? What about soldiers from Trump’s “Peace Force”? Does he need to be in IDF uniform like [להבדיל!] a Kohen needs to wear Bigdei Kehuna for the קדושה to be חל?
2. Correct me if I’m wrong, but ZSK seems to conflate “defending EY”, “defending the secular State of Israel”, and “defending Jews”, even though these are three separate things that may or may not coincide with each other (Venn diagram style.) Which of the three makes the soldier into a “Kadosh”? What about a Shomrim volunteer protecting Jews in Brooklyn? What about an Arab IDF soldier protecting a Bedouin settlement in the Negev inside Israel but outside Eretz Yisroel and with no Jews around? What about if the NK would establish a Chareidi Yishuv south of the Litani inside “EY” but outside Israel, and the Hezbollah would come to kill them, and they would go out in an ad-hoc posse with pitchforks etc. and one of them would be KIA ח״ו? Would he then be a קדוש because he “died defending EY”? Or does he have to be a ‘soldier’ לעיכובא?
Does anyone have any answers?
I’m certainly not on the side of any of the kefira or it’s supporters. Here are the normative Torah answers to your question:
1. (A) No,
1. (B) “Kudosh” in generally used to mean someone who fulfilled the mitzvah of dying “al kiddish Hashem”. Non-Jews are not commanded to die such a death, so they cannot called “Kudosh” in the normal usage.
1. (C) No
1. (D) Perhaps if his intent is to die in zionist clothing to show the world how evil zionism is, how it is a cult of death that loves jewish blood being spilt, etc, then you could say he needs the Nazi-IDF uniform to die his private (al kiddish Hashem) and be kudosh.2. (A) None.
2. (B) No
2. (C) No
2. (D) No
2. (E) No3.(A) Yes, see above 🙂
@YYA – while I often disagree with you, I appreciate your civility and thoughtfulness in trying to truly understand the issues from more than one perspective. So, as to your questions:
1. A Druze who falls in battle defending Jews should be appreciated and valued, and I’m sure he receives his Sechar in the Olam haEmes. Whether or not he’s a “Kadosh” is a question with no specific practical ramifications – so I leave it to HKB”H to decide if he is or is not a Kadosh.
2. As noted above, there is no practical Halachic import to calling someone a Kadosh. That being said, the classic use of the term was someone who was killed because he was a Jew, or perhaps while defending Jews. How far this goes is debatable – one can reasonably hold that defending the existence of a Jewish state that itself protects Jewish lives, even if a specific act did not directly defend the lives of other Jews, is effectively indirectly defending the lives of Jews. Does that apply to non-Jews too? I don’t know – but it makes little practical difference. I definitely appreciate the Druze and Bedouin IDF soldiers who serve honorably and well in the IDF, a number of whom have given up their lives – that is basic Hakaras haTov, which all Jews should feel towards those who defend us. It is also important to express this to their respective communities and families – that, too, is basic.
As to other Jews who died defending Jewish lives – there is obviously no need for them to be soldiers to be considered Kedoshim. I can’t make a blanket statement that ALL of them are Kedoshim, the same way that I can’t make a categorical statement that all soldiers are Kedoshim – that is up to HKB”H. They could well be, though, depending on the circumstances.
an Israeli Yid
R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach famously said that the soldiers buried on Mt Herzl are kedoshim, and he advised his students to go daven there before the Yomim Noraim, instead of traveling to other areas.
YYA, you are also misunderstanding the words of davening. We are not proud to have been led like sheep to slaughter. If anything, that is a taaneh against Hashem (if such a thing can exist) – we are proud that we didn’t forget Him, despite having been led like sheep. We recognize that it came from Hashem, and even so, we still follow Him.
We have a mitzvah of v’Chai bahem, we are supposed to do everything we can to live. If others are trying to kill us, we have an obligation to defend ourselves. When it came to die or convert, that’s a yahereg v’al yaavor, so we give our lives – but if it’s not about giving up the Torah chas v’shalom, then we must do all we can to live.YYA: I saw that Rabbi Yechiel Spero wrote the story, and he said he heard it from Rabbi Lau. I don’t know if it’s written in any seforim. I’ve heard it from a number of other places as well.
It has always been the great desire of all righteous Jews to die Al Kiddush Hashem. Every righteous Jew hopes that when his time to leave this world comes, it comes about by him being killed for being a Jew.
r shlomo zalman is also quoted as bitterly condemning the zionists in the forties as having innocent yiddish blit on their hands
the quote re the cemeteries you mentioned , even if true , should still be balanced with the quote mentioned above
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you rightfully approach the quote about r shlomo zalman and har herzl with a healthy dose of skepticism
but rav chaim shmulevits in his sichot mussar at the end clearly categorises fallen soldiers as harugei lud
that is black on white
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what do you think about that ?
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.thank you for highlighting and being adamant about the correct traditional Torah definition of “Kudosh”, as a specific choice a person makes to give up one’s life instead of rebelling against Hashem. That is indeed the baseline standard.
YYA
sefer hasidim says that someone who dies while doing a mitsva is a kadosh
for sure if he is killed because he was doing a mitsva
YYA< a great summary of the debate. I am not sure why this is such a special topic, and not the issue of combining hishtadlus with relying on Hashem. Maybe an extreme one, but still not different.
Do you hesitate every time you need to go to a doctor – whether it is appropriate to address the issue or it is Hashem’s punishment for the crude words you posted in CR? Every time you run out of milk, do you hesitate going to the store because maybe it is because Zionists misinterpret eretz zavat halav udvash?
Why is there a contradiction between having a functioning military. Every Jewish king had, competitive to all neighbors – you focus on churban that happened every 400+ years. Do you realize that the army was required to keep BM operating for those 400 years?
Specifically, for Roman times – having a strong army did not work for many nations that were conquered by Roman. As the policy of the empire was to scare everyone from a rebellion while improving their economic life, they would be disproportionally cruel to occasional rebels: strong Judean army just caused for more legions to be collected from other parts of the empire. Presumably, Rabbonim understood that and advised against rebelling – not because they preferred Roman power or were pacificists, like you propose here, but because of Realpolitik: it was just not possible to rebel against such a strong empire.
YYA: What’s your point? First, I never said that y’hareg v’al yaavor is a sign of weakness. The situation, if it arises, is just the reality. My point was that’s a case where we aren’t commanded to live. Although, if someone has a gun to your head, ordering you to commit one of those three sins, you’d be just fine halachically trying to kill him, as he has a status of a rodef.
As for the IDF, I agree it shouldn’t be a point of pride. It too is just the reality. Yes, the Jews as a nation survive long-term because we stay true to Hashem and the Torah. But we also must do our hishtadlus, and have an army to protect ourselves. Is that a point of pride? Maybe, from the perspective of doing a mitzvah. Do I feel pride every morning when I put on tefillin? Honestly, no, I don’t. Maybe I should. But I agree that it shouldn’t be a source of national pride – only religious pride.
Maybe the reason they push having pride in it is so that people will be more likely to serve in the IDF? They need people to support it in order to function – maybe it’s really just a means to an end?Are eating and drinking bad because there are so many gluttons and drunkards? Then, how come we have a brocha before and after? And it is not just an aveirah to enjoy the food you said brocha on.
As DoMoshe suggests, should you not have nahas when you put a tefilin? your child? grandchild? greatgrandchild? an Yid you found in Times Square?
Should you just ignore that you are part of a success masorah and taught someone else?What if you or your child became a brain surgeon? Developed Iron Dome? Used Iron Dome to protect batei midarshim from reshayim?
DaMoshe> Maybe the reason they push having pride in it is so that people will be more likely to serve in the IDF?
but also people who suggest ignoring all achievements have motivation that someone, H’V, will go serve in IDF?
YYA, I see. I think you are posing this false choice between bitachon and having an Army – maybe based on all the problems you describe with IDF. I am not certain to what degree these problems present themselves but I am sure they are there. So, I understand your emotional attitude.
I am only pointing out that a country requires an army, as much as it requires a police force and a tax authority, as much as a person requires a doctor and a hairdresser. You are not allowed to live in a city without a doctor. Similarly, it will be madness to live in a country without an army.
Doctors are often, and were often, not religious. There were also great doctors like in Taanis. “You go to the war with the army you have” (tm Rumsfeld). Jews had to serve in many armies in the world that are way worse than IDF. Yet, it is very zionist of you to demand more from a Jewish army than the Czar’s army, and I do not disagree.
But you do demonstrate that zionists were right in one aspect – you argue from the fact that Jews did not have an army for a long time. But were we ever in a situation where it was practical to have an army? There was, for example, a Jewish state in Yemen at some point – do you think it did not have an army? Take Khazar – did Kuzari advise him to discharge his army? when did we join Quakers and I missed that?
YYA
I hear all of your points
but re the mitsva or not of IDF’s activities
I do not have enough factual details about each and every military action to form a specific opinion whether it is or is not a mitysva
but … and that is very important … overall … without the present existence of the IDF , the present existence of millions of our brothers is in mortal danger
close your eyes and imagine that on october 8 the IDF would be totally out of action for two weeks …
what would have happened al pi derech hateva ….
you and I , and every honest and knowledgeable person do have enough factual details to come to that conclusion
rav chaim shmuelevits came to that very same conclusion too
that ‘s why he said what he said
does that mean that zionism is correct ?
chas veshalom
does that mean that they should have established a state ?
chas veshalom
does that mean that the IDF is blameless ?
chas veshalom
does that mean that yeshiva boys should enlist ?
Chas veshalom
does that mean that the IDF is not being used as a secular melting pot ?
for sure it is a secular melting pot
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are we so small minded that we cannot acknowledge the reality in front of us ??we can definitely withstand the false allure of zionism without negating clear pikuach nefesh reality
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.YYA: why do you say the IDF is the “supreme temple of Zionism”? It 100% is not. If I had to pick something to describe as the main element of Zionism, it’s Eretz Yisrael, and due to the religious aspect.
I’d love to see a frum government running things in Israel. I’m still a Zionist, even with that view.YYA> Torah and Mitzvos are the ONLY real תכלית החיים
Thanks for the clarification. You seem to be decoupling mitzvos from real life. So, giving maaser is a mitzva, but spending time protecting fellow Yidden is not? I understand from, for example, Ramban’s naval b’rshus Torah is that you can apply your mitzva approach to other areas that are not necessarily defined explicitly, at least in bein adam l’havero. And all gemoras and sifrei mussar, are you dsicarding them all also? In truth, I don’t think you personally hold by that, but I agree that this became a “party line”. It is clear why – because the anti-religious groups are highlighting and perverting those values and you want to oppose the chazerim.
YYA, maybe directly related – Bava Kamma when discussing how to safely discard pieces of glass mentions 3 ways of becoming a chassid – nezikin, avos, brochos. So, I am listening to a visiting T’Ch discussing brochos, saying, as motivation: “as Gemora says you can become a chossid by learning brochos”.
There are like 30 yeshivishe T’Ch sitting in the room, all smiling and nodding. I was surprised not just by the partial gemora, but that nobody raised an eye and gave a thought about it. I was not sure whether my concern was appropriate – after all, this was not part of a halachik discourse, but a motivational piece and the discourse was about brochos. I did not want to embarrass the Rav in public and did not get a chance to ask in private, but I asked another senior yeshivishe rov. He understood my question and said – if you don’t know brochos and kashrus, you are not a Yid, but middos and nezikin not so … [of course, gemorah does not mean basic knowledge, but chasidut]. But I think this was an honest admission that the change of focus is due to desire keep students “Jewish”.I am actually stuck at this topic. I often go to R Soloveitchik’s writing for such haskafik issues, and I just saw in his hesped for a Torah Vadaas Rosh yeshiva who was a prominent chabadnik, he says that chassidus, and chabad especially, focus on teaching people saying brochos with right attitude – and also quotes same gemora in part….
YYA, the Rambam paskens that a Melech Yisroel is allowed with a premission of Sanhedrin to go to a war of reshus.
An example of such a war is Dovid Ha’Melech’s war on Ammon which was declared because the king of Ammon gravely insulted and expelled Jewish diplomats. I suppose for the kingdom of Israel being publicly pushed around is enough of a reason to go to war. See anything about “dying with honor”?YYA:
We also had an army on October 7, which didn’t prevent the biggest bloodbath of Jews AFTER the Holocaust either…
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I take issue with that oft repeated statement by many people
I find this statement to be utterly baseless
WRT to the korbanot who died , this is correct
but WRT to the millions saved , this is incorrect
imagine the attack of 7 october … WITH NO IDF at all …. who would stop those barbarians al pi derech hateva ???
what number lo aleinu would you realistically put on the korbanot in such a case ?
who exactly would stand in their way ???
lemaaseh — it was the IDF who bsd stopped them
this is the fact of the matter
so the IDF failed [begzerat elyon] in protecting one thousand people but succeeded [bsd] to protect millions …
in a rough estimation this is about one in ten thousand – meaning for every 99.999 of people who were protected – one was not
you are right to consider this a failure because we do have super high standards — even one person is an olam maleih
but when you compare the existence of the IDF versus its non existence …
the difference is simply staggering
————————–the second bone I have to pick with you is the comparison of the necessity of moving one’s bowels with the necessity of the IDF
chevrat hatsala … is that also similar to moving one’s bowels ? ….. both are ‘necessary’ …..
why is the hatsala part of the IDF not similar to ….. hatsala
both are mitsvot … or not ?
the only point which I would grant you … is that the IDF is not only engaged with hatsala actions whereas the chevrat hatsala is
You are correct the IDF is engaging in many averot too
which should not be whitewashed
but the hatsala part is still a mitsva — no less than the activities of chevrat hatsala
as much similar to moving the bowels as the chevrat hatsala’s activities are ….
YYA
Le’hisha’en — only on avinu in heaven
totally agree
but closing up shop as you say …. the ‘gesheft makes no sense’ ….. is equal to …. inviting clear mass pikuach nefesh
permanently tenable or not tenable … is language to be used only when discounting the RBSHO chvsh
rabenu yonah [shar gimmel] writes that the hiyuv of bitachon includes the ‘carrying of yeshuat hashem belevavo’
the same One who carried the jews in EY in His embrace for the last 80 years in the face of overwhelming odds
can … and will …. continue to carry them , so whether some countries do or do not have nuclear weapons is really irrelevant to the final outcome
those odds were not considered any more ‘tenable’ at the time
and nevertheless the fact is that the jews in EY were zoche to shmira from above
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.our job is as follows :
we have to act according to the torah which commands us to do everything possible to minimize pikuach nefesh
which renders the hatsala actions of the IDF into a mitsva — equal to the actions of chevrat hatsala
closing up shop is clear mass pikuach nefesh … and clearly prohibited al pi torah ….
and even talk of closing up shop seems to me to be alul to pikuach nefesh … and therefore against the torah ….
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.lol. you continue to embarrass your church and your fake god.
if there was no zionism, there WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN an Oct 7!Your silly logic is that despite the clear punishment (as explicit in chazal), you demand MORE ZIONISM! Just like pharaoh (maybe worse!)
Using your logic, you would say such insights like “if not for the nazi guards, can you imagine how much WORSE the germans would have treaded the Jews in Auschwitz?!!”
“Sure”, you say, “they failed to protect 6 million”, but they SAVED the other 12 MILLION!!”Yet your avoda zureh is more precious than the lives of your own children as you keep sending your boys off to die for that fake religion you call “dati leumi”. Those boys die making the greatest chilil Hashem, making religious zionists around the world proud, R”L.
you misunderstood my position
you go on and on about arsonists and firefighters
and about bibi thinking of yeshuat hashem
and none of this is relevant at all to the issue I raise
which is the refusal in principle of taking pikuach nefesh into account in the halachik decision making process
and the danger of talk about closing shop
bibi is extremely far from a tsadiq and the IDF even worse and has veshalom that the haredi boys should be drafted
and the medina should not be glorified
totally agree to all of that
the issue was whether the mehaber and rama in YD clearly mandate to include p/n considerations into our calculations
and whether in other halachik areas we also use similar processes to arrive at conclusions
all the rest is hot air , not relevant to the issue raised
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.YYA, are you thinking or just shooting from the hip? Stop being so self-assured. I was talking about the Hashkofic reasons for going to war.
Anyhow, the war was actually started by the Jews. The beginning of the fighting happened “at the opening of the city” of Rabbat of Ammon. Or nearby – according to Divrei Ha’Yomim.
Btw, you were also this way self-assuredly wrong about the money for Keren Ha’Torah.YYA> ‘Torah and Mitzvos’ it includes every aspect of Yiddishkeit, including the ‘fifth Shulchan Aruch’ and certainly including Middos and בין אדם לחברו
exactly, I did not doubt that you hold by this.
> just ‘something we need to do to in order to function,
I think I know where you are going, but I don’t fully agree, maybe needs to be re-phrased. Hashem created all these interesting things around us – surely, not for us to ignore, but to apply our Torah approach to the world. While I agree with your “accusation” that I am repeating my own opinion on Charedism, I found a similar view in R Soloveitchik in 1950s: ,if we claim to have knowledge of the world from Hashem, then we should not be hiding in the caves, but rather engage with the world. I don’t think this view negates the value of Charedi approach in providing a “safe space” for myriads of Yidden to be saved from modern dangers. My only concern is that the system created for survival does not substitute for Judaism. There is only one Am Yistoel with one Torah and we can’t get it wrong.
YYA> Missile defense and brain surgery etc. are not the REASON we are here in this world.
How do you explain pages of Gemorah explaining medical cures and safe travel instructions? Was it to provide medical parnosah to students or because the rabonim genuinely cared for their health? about being careful how you dispose glass pieces? about tzadik (or tzadekes?) that provide shovels for funerals? [yes, it says that learning gets bigger zechut].
Do you think developing missile defense or brain surgery are less of a chesed? Just try to disassociate this from zionism or secularism of colleges and look at the issue itself.
YYA> I never heard anything remotely close to that expressed by my Roshei Yeshiva. …
RY tried to explain why the other speaker allowed himself quote 1/3 of the gemorah, he definitely does not hold by not learning nezikin – and that is why I asked him. I probably posted this a couple of years ago – there was a speaker talking about halochos in business, with listeners charedi baalei batim, not T’Ch like at the talk we are discussing. And he was very strict on kashrus and yichud but very meikel on business ethics. I did not feel like starting an argument, so I contemplated getting up and leaving in a way that people understand why I did this. Here, the RY above, sitting in the first row, started shouting “genevah, genevah” …. When I asked the speaker later in private – his take was that yichud and such can lead to irreversible tragedies, comparing with limited damage from nezikin [I am not commenting]
> [speaker] since the topic at hand was Brachos, so he stayed on topic.
Right, this is why I am asking people how much big a deal it is. I still think it is a sign that attitudes are unbalanced. And also my observation that none of the T’Ch in the room – and their like 20-30 very learned people there – paid any attention. I looked at everyone.
YYA> Which is the core of Zionism. The attitude that “Jews were slaughtered like sheep because they didn’t have an army yada yada.”
absolutely, but we also should not go to another extreme and denigrate something just because anti-religious people started it. If you find common positions with Israelis who are not charedim but are observant, or traditional, or even non-religious but not anti-religious, then those remaining anti-religious attitudes will be marginalized. These are not 1950s any more.
YYA
Hope it is clear to you that I am not a zionist , nor should the medina be considered a lechathila
the issues I raised , are totally separate and very clear :
1] is p/n an issue now ?
only a fool or a dishonest person would answer with a no
2] is the existence of the IDF versus its non existence, ameliorating p/n in the present situation ?
I cant see a way out here – picture both scenario’s and we end up with a choice between a bedieved versus a literal catastrophe chvsh
3] is p/n doche even the most machmir explanation of the shavu’ot — according the normal halacha formulation process ?
again I cant see a way out — in a normal reading of poskim and SH’A YD 157 it is clear that p/n is docheh the shavu’ot
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.so in cold and dry halachic decision it follows that the IDF is mandated to fight in protection of the people in EY
this halacha does not change because the tsidkut or rish’ut of the PM or the army brass or the SC
nor does it change because of the grandfathers of present tsionim were arsonists
nor does it change because the tsioni leadership nowadays are arsonists
p/n is p/n
rav michoel ber weissmandel zatsal organised his hatsala comittee in slovakia in conjunction with a prominent zionist lady called gisi fleishman
rav weismandel had plenty to say about the zionists , I can assure you
nevertheless he collaborated
with a zionist ….
because of p/n
so why is IDF’s hatsala activity , treif across the board ?
again , a haredi bachur has no place in the IDF
but that is a total separate issue
Where am I going wrong in my logic ?
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