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time to wake up from your self induced permanent sleep ….
and start thinking fresh …..
without any of your hanachot kedumot ….
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I do not belong to any church
zionism is not my god
my boys do not go to the army , bh for that
and if my grandmother woud have had wheels she would be a car
what difference does it make what would have , could have or should have been ?
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what is !
“what is” , is the only halachic relevant issue to consider ,
and the main part of “what is” , you consistently ignore …
ignore , or plainly lie about ….
you ignore and lie about the clear mass p/n which will arise if the IDF stops its activities .
no amount of cursing , no amount of forcibly consecrating people as priests into a religion they have no part of , no amount of blaming arsonists …
is going to make even one dent in this reality
and as long as you are unwilling to take off your blinders , you will continue to be megaleh panim batorah shelo kahalacha
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.YYA, LOOK in Rambam Hilchos Melochim (5:1) where he paskens that a Melech Yisroel is allowed to wage war to increase his renown. Ab kdei kach!
YYA,
I am glad we agree on almost anything, except a couple of technical points:
1) do we need to have observant doctors/engineers or could we just rely on goyim and secularists
2) would it be a high ruchani price/bitul zman for doing that
3) we can do great chesed with our bare hands, why do I need specialized trainingOn (1), you might use “charedi”, instead of “observant”, but this would be unfair – as the “charedi” might already mean the answer you prefer.
One line of answers is in RYBS yiddish article after YU created a medical school and people were up in arms – we wanted a rabbinical school, why is it expanding to medicine. The (bedieved, in the author’s words) answer was that Jews always had problems with non-religious doctors and pharmacists who were not sensitive to Jewish issues. This is not very persuasive, I think, and does not extend to other jobs, though – Iron dome seems not to need to know where techum shabbat is. So, maybe we need hatzolah/gynecologists/psychologists, but not dermatologists. But take this to the extreme – imagine all currently observant Jews become charedi, with all learning and only marginal presence of chaverei and chaveros knesset in the society. Would this be healthy? probably not. If so, then you are explicitly relying on non-charedi observant Yidden to take care of our role in society [I am inverting here your clever argument about charedi demographic contribution]. This is great – as long as we all acknowledge each other’s contribution. But if your community looks down on others [possibly because of self-preservation necessity], then this is not working.YYA, for crying out loud! I am not saying that the current state of Israel has a valid Sanhedrin and a fully valid king. I am talking about about the Haskofic reason for going to war.
And increasing “shemao” is not just deterrence.2) cost
I am currently reading a book that quotes an American lady who wanted to become a dentist while in shidduchim for a talmid chochom. A charedi, anti or non-Z Israeli Ruv tells her that while this is not a usual path, she should be able to do that. And she did. And I heard from others who got OK for various professions from their RY who were publicly against college. When I and my friend – we were both in our 20s and similar in biographies met our Lakewood Teacher, he strongly suggested to my friend (who had a profession and was doing some dead-end jobs) R Auerbach was OK with R Lau privately preparing for bagrut while in his non-college yeshiva and even was disappointed that R Lau was not interested in sciences he was studying. So, that’s a proof that this is OK for some and the question is – how far do we need to go with this approach.So, on cost, I think it is quote possible to get many professions without engaging in campus life and spending 10s of years in residency. Lots of “yeshivish” bochrim do this in NY – most in somewhat low-quality online or offline colleges (quality is low probably because high schools did noy prepare most students). Various medical specialties like physical therapy, same for engineering and computer science.
Maybe you need to balance over benefits, in addition to chesed: stable income that can enable you to work fleixble, low hours, sometimes even from home, provide for family without relying on questionable or subsidized daycare …
3) is it not enough to do simple chesed?
well, chesed is, in part, measured by outcome, not just effort. Or, you can say learning engineering in order to build defense or make medical devices, or make your travel more comfortable – that time should also count as chesed. Simple math:
Reb A. 5 years training F/T + 10 years working producing (notionally) 10x time more chesed outcome
Reb B. 80 years doing simple chesed 50% of his dayReb A produces more chesed in less time.
And back to our source in Taanis – it brings example of simple chesed (giving out shovels for burials – I wonder whether snowstorms will also qualify?) that is great but inferior to learning and then a doctor that does medicine with mitzvos and chesed – that is 7x “better” than Abaye. I suspect this has something to do with this combination of professional engagement and his middos. Otherwise, Abaye would easily replicate what the doctor did.
PS and the professional also earns more money – not only for tzedoka in general but also for chesed to his wife (less work, less worries, more babysitters) to his children (giving them better Torah and professional education)
YYA
totally agree re your remark about not everything bandied around as p/n actually being that …
none of my posts refer to bogus p/n
I am only referring to real p/n
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.YYA
it seems we keep on agreeing …
but the rhetoric from satmar is not as you portray it
they seem to sincerely believe that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot
and that it would ‘better’ to chv’sh lose all of the yehudim in EY , rather than have the IDF fight for their survival
I hear this from their rabanim , from their posters here and from their people on the street
it is that principle that I am questioning …
they base the resistance to the draft on that principle of theirs
whereas all the other haredim base their resistance to the draft
on the obvious danger to yahadut …
there is a huge difference between the two ….
dont forget — with the future demographic trends as they are
the non frum segment of jews all over the world will decline
conversely the frum will become an ever increasing part
with result that the voice of the frum will inevitably sound louder
on questions of outside support for the medina …
are we prepared that the governments around the world get the message from their jews that the medina should close shop ?
this is an issue which needs to be hashed out , in my opinion at least …
YYA> That said, if EVERYONE will be Chareidi (or perhaps more accurately some sort of ‘critical mass’), so then most of the reasons for avoiding certain endeavors and occupations etc. will no longer be relevant. So it will be easier for those Chareidim so inclined to pursue at least some of the options you mentioned.
so, we agree on more and more … so, according to you, the negative attitudes towards these “non-charedi” (a loose term, I admit) lifestyles/occupations is that those niches are currently taken by inappropriate people and engagement in those can lead to mixed dancing … This is a very reasonable position and it is indeed open to gradual shifts and also to specific activities that can facilitate that – opening right institutions, etc. I’d appreciate if you can point me to some leadership statements that support your – so reasonable – views. And, logically, then you should not have any problems with anyone who is shomer shabbos and only differs from your position above in being less concerns about the issue of separation and are willing to attend college with non-religious, etc. Again, I wish these views were advertised more often, and if they are, I’ll be delighted to see.
YYA> The return of the dead ‘hostage’. Jewish lives were risked
This may be when malchut (of whatever type) has their own leeway, different from a beis din – there are considerations of international standing. deterrence, national unity and will … (see our previous silly example of chasing car thieves on bikes). The government might be justified to pursue certain goals based on those considerations, and they have way more information about the factors than is known to the public. I am not saying, they are right, but this is where you give them benefit of a doubt instead of undermining them with nitpicking. At worst case, this is an issue of different priorities for worthy goals, not pursuing bad goals.
yankel> with result that the voice of the frum will inevitably sound louder
you are absolutely right. Now, tzibur does not feel responsible for the actual events, so all kinds of opinions can be thrown around at no cost. Now, imagine posters with some of the stranger views here get elected to leadership roles… it is much easier to deal (conceptually) with non-religious Jews in charge (and even easier with non-Jews on charge) than when we will have “Torah” Jews in charge and if, H’V, bad opinions win the day. So, it is very beneficial to discuss these issues now! and responsibly.
YYA, the kovod of Malchus Yisroel is an aspect of the Kovod of Malchus Shamaim. But was is it increased by fighting sometimes?!? Maybe it should be increased by being pushovers? That is my whole point.
YYA
it would be beneficial for haredim in EY who are a despised and persecuted minority ,
to be afforded some breathing space in their galut between their errant brothers ….
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the above figures importantly within the haredi / medina relationship
but the point I raise, figures within the haredi / outside world / medina relationship
which will get more important as time goes on
not so long ago congressman from NY mentioned in his speech in the House
that antizionism is not antisemitism with as proof , the satmar shitah ….
satmar let that very public comment pass unchallenged …..
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.now it is true that satmar shitah is not antisemitism
but there are plenty of antizionists who really are antisemites masquerading as antizionists
and using satmar shitah as smokescreen ….
thats one example of the latest developments which indicate the future trend I mention before …
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from the talk of the satmar I met , it seems that they would back arms embargoes against the medinaeven if they would be critical for survival ….
in principle , that is — not as a lever for fair treatment of the persecuted haredim in EY
that is huge , in my eyes at least.
what do you think ?
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.Yankel berel how bout we ask a much more profound question
A question that should encompass all of reality, not just some arbitrary rules that don’t fallow common sense
“What is the moral thing to do in any given situation”
ThanksYaakov yosef. We are in galus by our own doing
Blah blah all I hear is jew how were so much more better then others. No we are not we are exactly the same and if we don’t stop carpermentalizing ourselves and putting ourselves on pedastals with all our fake slogans we will start acting with aragence and doing things that are very wrong. This mindset is very wrong. All human beings are the same and deserve the same respect and kindness stop placing yourselves as if your better and more human then others you are not
YYA, I was just objecting to your assertion that “fighting is more honorable than being a pushover” has no mekor in the Jewish Hashkofah. That is all.
I did not hear anyone claiming to be ‘better’ than anyone else .
Did you ?
If you did , please post the details .
Where , when and who ?
Yankel berel please. We all think we are better then everyone. Jew/ goy
Whatever this conversation is about in the first place, carpamentalizing people. It all stems from the same place. We have the truth they don’t…we are better. They aren’t. How about instead of this elitist mentality we realize we are all the same, same humans, same needs. We breathe the same air. We may not agree on ideology. But ideology is the tree of knowledge. And knowledge of our grandiosity takes us out of heaven. Heaven is a _mindset_
A mindset of understanding of our sameness of others helps us have empathy of others and brings humanity together.
Knowledge of our superiorty makes us other people and leads to elitist mentality. We need to find our humanness and our sameness cuz we are all ultimately exactly the sameThe rules in the book isn’t for us to separate above others
Everything written in the book is about community humanity kindness and how to treat others properly.
It’s called morality. So when we get lost in the US versus them we lose the foundation of our humanity.
First comes humanity
Then ideologyrescue , please
I totally disagree
one of the basics is that the RBSHO is the only true judge who knows who is ‘better’ than someone else
I reject your premise from start to finish
———-‘the rules of the book is not for us to separate above others’
I accept your premise from start to finish
———-re what comes first humanity or ideology …
have news for you — humanity is an essential part of ideology
they both come together
I do not know your background …
but have a question for you
you advocate for ‘common sense’ as opposed to rules
some 85 years ago in Central Europe ‘common sense’ was something very different to what it is now
how are you to know which ‘common sense’ is the right one ?
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.Yankel berel your second to last post makes no sense. Is that sheeple speak. Humanity is an essential part of ideology….not sure what you mean by that. I’m saying dont lose your humanity for your ideology. There is a difference between those. I’m talking about conscience and, belief systems. Your beliefs systems are your beliefs. And your conscience is your humanity. First comes your humanity, decency, common sense, wisdom, then maybe comes delusion (ideology)
How do you know which common sense is the right one……common sense means self understood principles that all human beings understand and that is self evident or self understood. Maybe think about it for a bit you’ll figure it out.
you did not answer the question about common sense …
common sense in Sparta and in Nazi Germany and in Soviet Russia and in feudal Europe and in common era USA are totally different things
nevertheless all of them figured at the time as ‘common sense’ followed by millions ….
humans in all these places found their own guiding principles to be exactly ….
what your words define : ‘ self understood principles that all human beings understand and that is self evident or self understood
but obviously they do contradict each other
so the question returns – how are you to know which common sense is correct ?
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.mnkl;j/l;l;”;
“;’/??
.Why did rescue not answer the question ?
Is it because he has none ?
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.Yankel berel I did answer you question I just didn’t play the game your trying to play cuz you think I’m a fool. Saying that 70 years ago the nazis were using “common sense” and then using that to speak as if you can’t use common sense because that was their common sense is just showing what a fool you are. The holocaust wasn’t people practicing common sanse. So put your sword down and stop being stupid
am not being stupid ,
dont have a sword , so cannot put it down , sorry
you still did not answer my question
what you define as ‘common sense’ is to a large extent derived from your surroundings
you view it as an objective criteria , used to judge whats right whats wrong
you dont realize that it really is a subjective yardstick , a reflection of your surrounding , their and your biases
there is no person and no society without biases
hence the very different ‘common senses’ in vogue in different societies
so the question is alive and kicking – how do you know which ‘common sense’ is the correct one ??
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Common sense is something self understood are you slow? And it’s Also written in plain English in the Torah so you never forget it.
Don’t kil, common sense
Don’t steal, common sense
And Lot of other things that clearly you can’t figure out cuz you don’t have a brain. Societies that get far away from common sense generally happen because of mass brainwash as you can see today in American culture and unfortunately in your own. ClearlyThis is what happens when your raised by schools and not your parents. Sad
It says in the Torah that morality and common sense are written on the heart meaning that all the principles biblical moral principles are human ideals and self understood.
It’s only brainwash and ideology that takes a person away from the realm of reality aka the tree of “knowledge” your using your knowledge to miss the point of reality. Please grow up thanksrescue: “Wow your just a bunch of rude people…wow”
Also rescue: “are you slow?”
“clearly you can’t figure out cuz you don’t have a brain”
“Unfortunately your irredeemable”What a horrible person rescue is, and he/she clearly doesn’t see his/her own faults.
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