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i write this as an insider. Not from what I hear from others. But as a bochur experiencing what I write.
I am acting as a whistleblower, exposing what is happening right now to the hundreds of Bocherim who would have been in Eretz Yisroel- to those who do not understand the full extent of the crisis we are in.
You may have been affected terribly by the Corana virus. But if you are like most people, you are probably past the worst of it and moving on with your life.
What exactly does “moving on with your life” mean?
You are slowly getting back to the comfort of day to day living the way it was 4 months ago, and enjoying the normalcy you are used to.
Yes, there are still many obstacles preventing life from getting back to “regular”, and many schools and camp cannot reopen.
But the parents and Rabbeim are doing a great job, doing the best they can ensuring every child, teenager and Bochur can strive and grow even in times like these.
It’s not perfect.
But it’s working for now.
But is it working for everyone?
You may not be aware, but there are hundreds if not thousands of Bochurim who aren’t just- “not past the Corona crisis”. But are actually in a much worse position than they were at the height of the pandemic.
Right now, we are the Korbanos getting hit harder than anyone else in Klal Yisroel, and I do not say this lightly.
Why, you ask?
Rosh Yeshivos and Rabbeim take Achrayis for their Bochurim currently learning in their Yeshiva.
That is the most logical and understandable approach for any responsible Rosh Yeshiva- to take care of the Bochurim currently entrusted to him.
But who takes Achrayis for those Bocherim when they graduate Yeshiva?
The Rosh Yeshiva of the next Yeshiva they attend, of course!
Or if they go to Eretz Yisroel, the system in place cultivates the maturing process of a 22 year old, teaching him to grow on his own in a new country.
But what happens when Corona virus hits right in that transition phase, and leaves a freshly graduated Yeshiva Bochur without a new Rosh Yeshiva to ensure he has the tools to survive, nor the opportunity to grow in a new environment in Eretz Yisroel?!
What happens to that Bochur?
Does he stand a chance?
Do you understand the everyday struggles every Bochur faces to do what’s right in today’s day and age EVEN WHEN EVERYTHING IS PERFECT!
Bochurim are hit so hard with today’s nisyonos… it’s a nais that any Bochur stays frum altogether.
Then strip him of his Yeshiva, Rosh Yeshiva and any Hadracha.
Does he stand a chance?
Do any of us stand a chance?
It is very easy for us Bocherim to brush aside these concerns and ensure ourselves that everything will be fine in a matter of weeks.
Let’s just enjoy the down time till things sort themselves out!
But what about the fact that the Israeli government says thay will not be letting in American boys until Chanukah?
Will our state of Ruchnious just stay frozen in place until next Pesach?!
What? Are we plain old stupid?
I’m “in” the crisis.
I promise you. I never thought I’d ever see Bochurim struggle so hard.
I’m talking about GOOD BOCHERIM.
Not Shvacha guys.
The best of the best.
Yes, they try so hard to do what’s right.
But after so many weeks with no plan in sight… we’re losing it.
There seems to be a plan for everyone.
But us.
Where are all the askanim who manage to take care of every crisis?
What’s this, if not a crisis?
A Bochur in Pain
I see your pain through your words
Just remember בפום צערה אגרא (I hope it’s spelled like that, if not, I’m sorry)
It’s not a crisis when there is a simple solution. Attend a yeshiva in america. You cant enter EY right now because of Covid 19. So look at home for a yeshiva.
“But who takes Achrayis for those Bocherim when they graduate Yeshiva?”
not the Bochurim?
Aren’t we talking about adults? Why rent they taking achriyis for themselves ?Dear Mesivta,
We touched this ever so slightly on the other tread. Yeshivos today do not guide anyone on where the Bochurim should be. Only where the Yeshiva should be. If you are ‘in between’ then you have no Yeshiva to guide you to think about the Yeshiva. So it follows that since you are on your own, you have to think about yourself.If you just graduated a Yeshiva, and have nobody to confer with regarding yourself, that is serious reason for pause. You where there for years, and they gave you no tools how to deal with your own personal growth?
as a bochur in eretz yisroel myself i 100% feel what youre saying, but you should know that there are askanim trying to get yeshiva bochurim back to eretz yisroel.
Any rebbi worth having does not let go until there is someone to take over. (And many of the rabbiem will not let go even then.) I know personally of rabbeim in yeshivos in America that have kept up with the bochurim scheduled to leave, and with those who’ve already left, were in Israel for a year or two and were just home for Pesach and couldn’t return. Sure, there are challenges. But our rabbeim and roshei yeshiva are not achzarim who kiss their talmidim good bye and then wash their hands of them.
“Right now, we are the Korbanos getting hit harder than anyone else in Klal Yisroel”
Seriously? Yeshiva Bachurim unable to sit in the beit midrash is a sad thing, but you are from “korbanos”. You can learn on the phone with a chavruta or via zoom with an entire shiur. Is it the same? No. Is your Torah learning worth the lives of all the people will die due to large gatherings taking place too soon? Absolutely not!It’s beyond self-centered to think that you’re getting “hit harder than anyone else in Klal Yisroel”! What about the young children orphaned by COVID-19? What the widows and widowers? What about the students mourning the deaths of their teachers? It’s a chutzpah to say you are being hit harder than they are!
Grow up.
As a former teenager, I can understand somewhat. However, as mentioned above, we’re all responsible for ourselves. If a bochur of 22 cannot manage for a few months without a rebbe, despite being in a dorm with other similar-aged men, or with family, etc. there is a much larger problem here.
I’m not sure everyone understood his post, I doubt i would have if I didnt have so many boys that age. My heart goes out to you. Hashem obviously wants you to seek out sources of strength, perhaps from past rebbeim as midwesterner pointed out. Perhaps others. Hashem should send us all a yeshua kheref eiyin!!
Dear Luna,
Nowhere did he mention that yeshivos should be opened for those like him, or that Eretz Yisrael should open up sooner. He was just calling attention to a very significant problem. Yeshiva boys are only trained to learn and grow in the yeshiva setting. Take a Bachur who just completed one stage, and is about to start another in the same setting. And then pull away the whole setting from. It is ready….. set….. grow…. Where? What does he do now? Chavrusa? From which Yeshiva? What masechta is he learning? Is he continuing to prepare to drei for Kadshim? Or is it full stop turn around back to Bava Kama? Who does he turn to in middle of a shverer toisfos? Who will tell him where to find that Ketzos everyone is debating? How does he even know that there is Ketzos on the topic?I have been calling very loud about how bad this pandemic has been and still is for all ages of our community. But this may be the roughest. A Bachur who put together one solid week after another after another, that added up to a good zman. Three zmanim a year for a number of years. During that time, his goal was to build himself to go to the next step and get up to par of some yeshiva or other yeshiva. Not going to yeshiva is not that big of a deal. But sitting there day after day, not sure what to learn, unable to uncover source material, or to hear feedback on what little novelties he has uncovered, is a slow painful horror tribunal for a budding talmid chacham.
Dear mesivta, as a father of a bochur in this situation you are describing, I wholeheartedly understand the situation and feel for these bochurim. I sugest you do your best to keep a kesher with your rebbeim from your previous yeshivos and maintain a steady stream of chavrusa shafts throughout the day. Although this most deffinetly won’t duplicate the tzura of a yeshiva it will hopefully keep you somewhat on track until the situation passes and you will be able to move on. Hatzlacha Raba.
N0mesorah- I understand that it’s difficult, I didn’t say that it isn’t. But these young man do have (limited) access to teahcers, mentors, and partners to learn with and help them grow despite the hardships of the pandemic.
My issue with the OP is over-dramatic “we have it the worst” mindset. It’s a huge slap in the face to people sitting shiva, people who have lost friends and family, people who are out of work and don’t know how they’re going to put food on the table.
Feeling disconnected and unable to grow in Torah study is legitimate and I don’t mean do invalidate his experiences. But he, and other like him, are not “karbanos”, they are not “getting hit” harder than anyone else, and they certainly don’t have it worse than so many others.Every bochur who is not in Yeshiva, is a Korban. Every Yeshiva not open is a world shaking catastrophe. Do we not realise that the only thing Hashem wants from this world is Learning Torah, That only place he is found known and appreciated in this world is in Yeshivas and Mosdos He kedoshos. When they are shut the world is literally destroyed. Hashems World, how he wants it to be is almost non existent as it is, but this is a massive blow, the closure of yeshivas for months, is the biggest tragedy possible.
Get out of your box this is Hashems world!!!!! not yours if people die that is a personal tragedy if Hashems world is being shaken touched attacked slightly that is a world shattering catastrophe.
The askanim are not silent, they tell me they are fighting extremely hard at government level in Israel to reopen the yeshivas, they are keeping quiet as to not to arouse the leftist anti torah agenda.
This is a extremely hard time for every bochur, i am dealing with boochurim srtuggling everyday. The only Chizzuck i can say is that klal yisrael at large of daveing for you, Hashem is looking out for you. Use some of your time to focus on the things you have acheived being alone, thatt close kesher to Hashem that you reached when you realised noone can help but Hashem, The real conection to Torah that you created…. And focus of the small things that He is giving you, the little messages of love that He sends us the whole time, We just need to focus on them.
Daven that Hashems world should be rebuilt now today how he wants it to be wiith the Coming of Moshiach!!!Dear Luna,
I campaigned on other threads, that comforting the mourners, tending the ill, etc comes before finding a minyan or reopening shuls. I wondered if we are better off without them. But the dead and the ill are not the worst of the pandemic. People always cope and move on.Let me share about three people that I know well. I consider these the hardest hit.
Someone who moved his family here and there to support them. This year they finally bought a house and settled into a community. He then took his savings and started a business. That is now shut down.
A child has returned home to family situation that they spent years getting out of.
An adult that beat mental illness and had it under control for years, but is now slipping.These are things one has to figure out. They cannot be coping or just move on. I call this the hardest, because the unknowable nature of a pandemic leaves them unsure of where to place their next step. Considering that they invested years just to get were they are now, is what makes these stories into ‘karbanos’. These are isolated stories. But if we would look for one group to call in crisis, it would be Yeshiva Bachurim that were transitioning. About 400 new guys come to BMG every summer. And more than that go to EY. And that is just a fraction of the full picture.
Navyatsh- calling a death a personal tragedy makes the rest of your words hard to read. Personal tragedy? The death of a yid is a tragedy that is so global and huge that any randon jew is obligated to break shabbos to prevent it.
There are several horrible tragic scenarios that have resulted from this pandemic. Luna is right that we can’t belittle the physical crisis, and neither can we belittle the others. It is sad if people don’t understand how tragic the closing of yeshivas and schools are, very sad. But no suffering needs to be minimized in stressing that point.
Dear Navy,
I am not in Yeshivah anymore. I wished I would dropped out before my bar mitzvah. If you say every boy should be in Yeshivah, than you can not say it is exclusive in the Eyes of Hashem. Learning Torah can be done anywhere, and is an open question if Yeshivos have stopped advancing that concept. Yeshiva boys that succeed, are following a well tread path, and need that path to go forward. It does not prove one bit, that there could be a much better way.let me be clear, i am not minimising the death of a yid, at all. I am saying that a death is a personal tragedy, the feeling and difficulties endless and intense, but they are on a personal level about how we feel and the challenges we face because of it. Hence you are only thinking about yourself and others whom’s pain you feel. Closing Yeshivas is a tragedy in Hashems world, if you cant understand this point i can only mention, the mishna כל מי שאינו חס על כבוד קונו נוח לו שלא נברא.
The reason why we must be מחלל שבת and other איסורים to save a Yid is Not because the importance of preventing their tragedy is so important, rather because Hashem wants every Yid alive and we want and do and protect what He wants. The entire basis for Loving a fellow Yid is that Hashem wants all yidden to be, it is not based on friendship and relationships.
Get out your box this is Hashems world!!!!!!!Dear Nomesorah, I am deeply saddened to hear your experience and your outlook, i myself dropped out of yeshiva 3 years ago. Your points are true and i don’t argue with them, there is a lot to be done to better the yeshiva experience for many. But we must not forget that yeshivas are the מקום of מסירת התורה, they are where the link to har sinia exists within. At least the few remaining yeshivos with the few remaining bochurim should be able to learn. does our personal experience in any way change the purpose of this world.
navy – I hear your enthusiasm but I believe you are letting yourself get carried away in it. Yes, I cry when someone dies over my personal loss in their passing, but it is not a personal loss. The death of every yid is a loss to every yid. And you do not need to expound on the importance of Torah by diminishing the other tragedies or the other Torah filled lifestyles.
Yes, I agree that many think learning all day is just something people do, they are clueless on the importance of having Hashem and his Torah in front of us at all times. They think being a frum person is “good enough”. That if you can’t learn in a bais medrash you can just “go learn somewhere else”. Yes, many people don’t get the value. But don’t amke yourself as ignorant by missing the importance of other things. It just reinforces that fallacy that they have embraced.syag with all due respect, i do not understand you. I am trying to make a point that there are two ways we can live in the world from our own perception or from how Hashem wants it to be. Is your point that i should not stress the value and importance of seeing things from the latter perspective???
Not at all! I just don’t know if you can assume your representation is what Hashem wants from each of us. We all must do what He wants, and building a relationship where He is primary is the only way to go. I am just not sure you can spell out how that looks for each person in your coffeeroom post.
I hear you. I never attempted to define each one of ours personal avodah – for that we need a נביא.
Hashem Rotzon is not fulfilled by any single yid it is only together with everyone it is fullfilled, the only way everyone is involved is if they are supporting and assisting those who are doing His Rotzon fully. The rambam writes that it is only one person in every generation. He explains that everything and everybody is there to assist the one man who knows and learns כל התורה כולה. you can choose whether you want to be the one who paves the streets for him, or be his talmidim who learn with/from him. Yeshivas are very close to the top Tachlis we all must support them or we are not part of Hashems world.
Have a wonderful ShabbosIf a young man of 22 falls apart when his daily structure is taken and he can not adjust and deal with a new reality, what will happen 4-6 years down the road when his ideal situation is removed when he foes out to work? Is this not a miniature preparation for dealing with the realities of life in that he will not always live the life of the “ochlei man”? Could it be that our young men today simply take for granted the incredible ease at which they have it today which is completely unprecedented in history? I am not saying it is a good thing that boys have lost their structure. Let us use this opportunity for them to appreciate what they have had until now and even what they have without their normal structure. All their needs are taken care of. Someone cooks three meals a day for them and they have zero responsibility. Unlimited access to seforim the likes of which we have never seen before. Yes there are tremendous nisyonos out there but calling a tragedy as a boys who may be forced to continue in the same yeshiva that he just spent the last 4-7 years seems like a strectch.
CT – your post is more of a stereotyping fantasy than real life. Surprised to hear that from a rebbe. You are gravely underestimating their abilities and what life requires of them. Maybe your wife cooks 3 meals a day for your 22 year old but my guys have had to shop, cook, budget and provide for themsrlves while in bais medrash.
It’s not far from you, It’s very close to you. The Source of all. Strength, Torah, Repentance . We will make Aliyah!! Pray with more kavanah and more tests should not stop your happiness. May you go from strength to strength and seek counsel with a multitude of opinions.
Why not just move on to the next stage ie. Lakewood yeshiva or the like) As an insider myself I can tell you that for most guys the experience in Eretz yisroel while for many extremely positive has more to do with accepting personal responsibility combined with the opportunity of independence allowing them to settle within themselves than it has to do with Eretz yisroel or any specific system there is over there ( you say you are speaking of the 21-22 year olds ) this being so think about the just moving on over here . This is typically the situation in any “ post Eretz yisroel “ yeshiva in America so long as you aren’t living at home
If you already were in Eretz yisroel for some time this should be relatable and if you haven’t gone yet a similar opportunity lies in wait for you right here@CTlawyer
but the point is that these boys have no other option so they dont know what to do. its very different than being out of a job, because you can always look for another job. these boys still technically have their yeshiva so theyre just in limbo. for a lot of them it just stopped them in the middle of their growth process and its a very scary situation for themmet someone this past Shabbos, as we were walking, who told me that a chasidish young man saw him wearing a mask and asked him, “So you still hold from corona?” Is this what it has come to? COVID will disappear based on whether we “hold” of it or not?
It’s Time – not sure why you brought that into this thread but…
I would say its just the opposite. Are we going to be forever inhibited by those who continue with the restrictions that are no longer deemed necessary for certain areas?
Don’t misunderstand, if a person is at risk, he should be careful. But, for example, my brother lives in a place where indoor functions are allowed in large groups but he still won’t let anyone in his house. I told him there is nothing at all wrong with being worried or careful, but don’t mistake yourself for being the “norm” or “in the right” thus branding others thoughtless or reckless.for the latest round of infections and tragedies
All those who avoid wearing masks etc
for even the most remote possibility
can they dare say Devorim 21:7for the latest round of infections and tragedies
All those who avoid wearing masks etc
for even the most remote possibility
can they dare say Devorim 21:7No, we don’t act on “the most remote possibility”
Dear Ctr,
Returning to the Yeshiva, they just left is not an option. With enough of a spotlight on the issue, it could be made into a solid option.Dear Whats,
The ‘Eretz Yisroel is for personal development, and the same growth in Torah is probable in the Diaspora’, is the great secret that must be hidden from our society at all costs.I don’t understand.
What’s wrong with American yeshivos?
Why is only Israel an option?
Please enlighten me.Maybe it’s a message from Hkb’h that its time to get married.
The Rabbanim have said that once a boy is 21 he should ask his Rosh Yeshiva if he thinks its the right time.
Maybe we can use this opportunity to alleviate the shidduch crisis (yes, its real).
Maybe this is what the Ribono Shel Olam wanted to tell us?
Get married and settle down in BMG or such yeshiva.
You can always move to Eretz Yisrael with your new wife once this is over.Dear Opinion,
Maybe we can leave the Yeshiva Bochurim to sit and learn. Everyone else can worry about the pandemic, shidduch or every other crisis. There is never a right time to interrupt one’s learning to get married. How about let the ones who are learning decide when to get married, instead of the ignorami dictating to them?The responsibility of a rebbe or rosh yeshiva towards his talmid is forever. It doesn’t end after the talmid has left yeshiva. If your rebbe is not capable or not willing to be there for you, then he is not the right rebbe for you. Get a new rebbe or go back to the same yeshiva if you can. Also, try to communicate with your rebbe your concerns. You may be surprised.
By boys delaying to listen to Shidduchim at age 21 they cause more than 10% per grade per year of the Bais Yakov girls to stay single R”L. In the entire Charadi world boys are in Shidduchim by age 21. Chasidim & followers of the Chazoin Ish are in Shidduchim at age 18. (In EY an 18 year old boy is already being trained to fight the Sonai Yisroel.)
Is it only the American Yeshivish (Shoitim) that are not ready till 23, or is it American Goyishkeit that allows them to transgress the Avairos Chamuros involved in delaying Shidduchim till whenever they feel like?
See Saifer Nidchai Yisroel par. #25, written by the Chofets Chaim. He states that every day that a boy refuses to listen to Shidduchim (past age 20) he is Mevatel a Mitzvas Asaih.
If u want to learn get married and learn Torah Be`Tohara. Kollel is a standard in our times.
LibbiCan we look at this from a positive perspective? This might be the best thing for these 1,000 or so bachurim whose plans were suddenly upended. My guess is that most of them (like most humans) had a certain life plan about how everything will fall into place; I will go to x yeshiva in Eretz yisroel for 2 years, get married to y type girl after dating for 2 months, my laws will support me with $_____ per month, I will stay in kollel for z years and then go into the shver’s business, I will have ____ kids and settled down in Lakewood in ____ neighborhood etc. Suddenly they get a lesson in life that life does not work that way. This is an incredible opportunity for every single one of these bachurim to turn off the autopilot and ask themselves questions like
“What are my goals for my yeshiva life and how will I accomplish them?”“How much of my growth in Yeshiva comes from those outside of me (Rabbeim, cahveirim) and how much must come from within?”
“Is it possible that I have taken for granted my life as a yeshiva bachur with little/no responsibilities? If so what can I do to change that?”
“How will I adjust to life after yeshiva/kollel?”
“Am I really in yeshiva to “learn how to learn” and if so how will I know if I have achieved that? Maybe I should focus on just learning?”
“What do I hope to gain from my Rabbeim? Do I really need them to tell me which ketzos to look up? If I do not have that does that really mean I am lost?”
“If I ca not learn without another few hundred people in the same room as me what will happen after yeshiva?”
“Am I getting closer to Hashem in yeshiva? How? What is different now?”
“Do I have a plan for parnassa when I get married? Is there something I can do now to explore or experiment with that? Take college courses, itern in a certain business etc.”
What am I doing to take achrayus for klal Yisrael? Is there something I can do now to explore if perhaps I can have a future career in serving klal Yisrael full time instead of as a hobby or to lay guilt?”
Syag- I think your boys are a very rare exception. Everyone else can chime in but I don’t think most bachurim are self-supportive and cook their own meals at age 22. Does anyone disagree? BTW, going out to the pizza shop or burger joint with your parent’s credit card is not called preparing your own meals.
All of klal yisroel are responsible for one another. My crisis is your crisis
Ctrebbe – i don’t know what is more depressing, that yo actually believe your demeaning redirion of their lives, or that others reading it may believe it.
My boys re not an exception. They are not self supporting either. They have limited money and most is earned learning with younger/weaker weaker bochurim. MOST of their friends come from families like ours with no free rides. They can’t affrd to eat out which is why they buy ingredients and make meals. You either lived a pampered life, or believe the fake news that learning boys are all those things you authored above.eretz yisroel is important for two reasons:
first of all its eretz yisroel, its a huge zchus to be able to spend any amount of time learning here, let alone a few full years!
second of all is that a lot of these kids need to get away completely from their home environments, to distance themselves from it and to be completely osek in Torah in a way that simply would be possible for them in america. the yeshivas in eretz yisroel are largely responsible for creating an entire generation of bnei Torah. what would be of these boys if yeshivas like merkaz, tj, oh yerushalayim, tc, senters etc didnt exist? and a big part of this success is because of the fact that theyre in eretz yisroel and because of that ive seen so many boys turn into real bnei Torah and real erliche yiddenDid anybody consider that perhaps we have all misread the OP and his issue really revolves around nisyonos or internet shmutz and has nothing to do with growth in learning?
Syag-I will leave it to the audience to comment if they believe most bachurim today are like your children which I highly commend (and you for raising them like that) or like those I have described.
The reason that any of this is a problem is because we have a broken system. The earlier generations involved a talmid remaining under the tutelage of his Rosh Yeshiva long term, without the mobility that we now see. A few years here, 1-2 in E”Y, back to a freezer, and another few years. No steady, long term, permanent relationship. This fosters a development of structure being pinned on the address and location, not a rebbe who imbues a talmid with a derech halimud. We now identify a bochur as learning in yeshiva ploni in some city, rather than a talmid of Reb Ploni.
While learning lishmoh is a medraigoh that all wish to achieve, it is still way off. So the connection fails to be the Torah as Dvar Hashem, but whichever particular mesechtoh is currently being studied. The structure we all should have is first and foremost – learning the Torah as given on Sinai, authored by HKB”H. That connection rises above all geographic confines. I may not be able to access my familiar seat in the beis hamedrash, but I can bring the presence of the Shechinah wherever I choose to spend my time and effort learning.
This mobility may offer excitement and variety, but these are not ingredients in Torah Lishmoh. And our personal responsibility is to transcend above the address and connect with Torah – without boundaries.
Dear Shimon,
How do you get a Rebbe? The Rebbe ‘gets’ the Talmid. Write it like this. You should be gotten by your Rebbe. Doesn’t seem like such good advice when it is written this way.Dear Libbi,
You say ten percent. Can you back it up? It sounds like UFO sightings. Where is the data?Now, let’s make up that it is ninety five percent. It is still worth it for everyone, for the learning boy to keep learning. When the other boys get married has no bearing on when the learning boy should marry. There is not a nidnud issur in a learning boy delaying marriage.
Leave the Chofetz Chaim and the Chazon Ish for those that are learning. Meanwhile you can come up with the data.
Kollel in a week learns what solid single guys cover in a weekend.
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