July 20, 2020 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1884192
Those who are designated to learn Torah, can only be an asset to the kla at largel when they are left alone until they mature.July 20, 2020 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1884196
Exactly! The Yeshivos you listed are for boys that did not have solid personal development (They were not ready to sit as an adolescent.) until they went to Eretz Yisroel. The other name brand yeshivos do not offer more than their American counterparts that they are drawing from.July 20, 2020 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1884222
“Kollel in a week learns what solid single guys cover in a weekend.”
I have no clue whether this is fact or fantasy. But I do suggest that we return to what the Torah tells us in order to determine whether this makes any difference.
I would like to hear any source anywhere that our accomplishments in this world are evaluated by the amount of Torah knowledge we accumulate. At least one? Actually, we are interrogated upon arrival in Beis Din Shel Maaloh, and only one question addresses Torah study. That question is: קבעת עתים לתורה. Nowhere does it suggest that we will be tested on Chumash, gemora, or halacha. We are not even providing a number of hours/minutes learned. Only whether we built in Torah into our lives. The amount of data that was downloaded into our brains is not even part of the formula. Oh, you say it is? Provide any reference to support that.July 20, 2020 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1884254navyatshParticipant
Please a bit of humility, please. First of all there is a מצוה of וששננתם לבניך which required that דברי תורה יהוי מחודדים בפיך this refers to the entire torah. There are countless gemorah that mention the amount of תורה that must be aquired, the shulchan aruch pasken that to be called a talmid chochom one must have laernt רוב מקומות שבתלמוד
And most of all חז”ל tell us that when we come losid lovoh we will be asked did you learn chumash did you laern mishnayis did you laern gemorah מדרש מעשה מרכבה וכו’ . I ask you a personal favor if you wish to find out imformation to broaden your knowledge do not challenge the idea, just ask respectfully, it hurts me to see the challenge of basic facts.July 20, 2020 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1884257
Dear The little,
Nobody is obligating anyone to learn all day. But those who are should not be interrupted for the advancement of everyone else. Kollel is a drop below level for the average single bochur. That is why there is elite kollelim. I did not say anything about what our Torah accomplishments amount to.July 20, 2020 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1884438
Humility? What’s your issue with that?
מחודדים בפיך is not a reference to the volume learned, but that it should be absorbed so that when queried you can respond. That’s the source for חזרה. You refer to כמות in terms of qualification to be called a talmid chochom. That is not the mitzvah. The mitzvah is to learn, not to become. Someone who has the breadth of knowledge can be the talmid chochom, and no one says this is not an admirable achievement. I am just saying that this is not a goal, but a perk.
We are also guided to have a varied experience in learning. Again, not with the emphasis on the number of megabytes.
What are you referring to with “interrupted for the advancement of everyone else”?July 20, 2020 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1884472
Dear The little,
In general rallying yeshiva bochuim to the cause. Even in a good cause. Specifically here, it means telling them to plan their lives in accordance with the holy grail of the shidduch crisis.July 20, 2020 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1884485navyatshParticipant
Dear Little i know
How can we possibly be מחיוב to do חזרה on all the תורה in order that we should remember it, when we are not even מחיוב to learn it????July 20, 2020 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1884487
The divorce spike in the frum community involves several causal factors, and generalizing to all or most of them would not be accurate. But there are several issues that do appear rather often, and are worth noting. Among them is a commonly heard statement from one of a couple in crisis. When questioned, “Why did you get married?”, a frequent response is, “Because all my friends were getting married.” The foolishness is that marriage needs to be pursued when the individual is ready for it. The readiness of one’s peers should have zero bearing on the decision. That’s why I look somewhat askance to all the statements reported in the name of Gedolim about the age for marriage. Firstly, if one wants to look for a recommendation, the Mishna in Pirkei Avos openly states בן שמונה עשרה לחופה. As far as when someone is ready, that is a totally individual matter. Among my sons, one was ready at 19, others at 20 or 21.July 20, 2020 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1884512
Dear The Little,
The statement you quoted is not a mishna. I trust you that being ready is an individual matter. If a learning boy is ready at fifteen, he can delay at least another ten years to continue his studies.July 21, 2020 3:04 am at 3:04 am #1884597MaivinParticipant
you guys have completely lost the tread.
and also lost the plot.July 21, 2020 10:56 am at 10:56 am #1884757
“The statement you quoted is not a mishna. ”
It appears prominently in my copy of Pirkei Avos, 5:21. Does yours omit it? And why should your learning boy wait until 25 to get married if he is ready? Who is your support for your halacha on this?July 21, 2020 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1884939
Dear The Little,
The Mishna ends somwhere in the fifth perek. You are quoting one of the additions. This is prominently sourced. This particular teaching is considered to predate the Mishna. While it is a valid qoute, it is aggadah and does not obligate anyone.
He should not interrupt his studies. Rashi Kiddushin & Rambam Hilchos Talmud TorahJuly 21, 2020 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #1885307
What are you talking about? The 6th perek is an addition, as it begins, שנו חכמים בלשון המשנה. That is not true for the 5th, which is a bona fide, legitimate mishna. As with much of Pirkei Avos, the obligations contained are not strict halacha, but a guide. I am not going to obligate a boy to marry at 18 based on the mishna. But nor will I consider the mishna being followed when someone who is ready for marriage and postpones it for an extended time. I referenced the quote coming from the fifth perek for the obvious reason, but you decided to misrepresent it.
As for interrupting studies, there are guidelines of when one must stop learning for various mitzvos. That also includes an issur to learn lest one fail to fulfill the mitzvah on time. Granted, we are not dealing with either minutes or hours here, but rather years. For a serious learner, your argument would be that he should avoid marriage altogether, a la Ben Azai. I reject that suggestion, as there has not been anyone alive in our generations and many in the past who could be a Ben Azai. So it is about an individual judgment of when. Accepted. But the lengths you suggest seem grandiose.July 21, 2020 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1885309July 22, 2020 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1885222MaivinParticipant
it is a משנה מפורשת במסכת אבות פ”ה משנה כא
to continue ones studies is not a rashi and not a rambam, rather, it is actually a גמ’ קידושין כט:
however, if a recall exactly the words of the rambam it went as follows. וכתב הרמב״ם אישות פט״ו הלכה ב-ג
״האיש מצווה על פריה ורביה אבל לא האשה,
ומאימתי האיש נתחייב במצוה זו מבן שבע
עשרה וכוי. ואם היה עוסק בתורה וטרוד בה
והיה מתירא מלישא אשה כדי שלא יטרח
במזונות ויבטל מן התורה הרי זה מותר
להתאחר, שהעוסק במצוה פטור מן המצוה
וכל שכן בתלמוד תורה״. ״מי שחשקה נפשו
בתורה תמיד ושגה בה כבן עזאי ונדבק בה כל
ימיו ולא נשא אשה אין בידו עון והוא שלא
יהיה יצרו מתגבר עליו, אבל אם היה יצרו
מתגבר עליו חייב לישא אשה ואפילו היו לו
בנים שמא יבוא לידי הרהור״.July 22, 2020 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1885653
It is not a Mishna. In some versions it is added to the fourth perek. This is not a new theory. It is explicit in the Machzor Vitry. If it was a Mishna, it would certainly have been referenced by the Gemara in Kiddushin.July 22, 2020 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1885673
כדי שלא יטרח
במזונות ויבטל מן התורה
As a girl I don’t know the whole gemara, so maybe I am missing an important point.
Most boys are being supported those first few years anyway.July 23, 2020 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1885787bsharg2Participant
You don’t have to stop learning once you get marriedJuly 23, 2020 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1886191
I am not sure if most are being supported. Almost all are not facing budget gaps. It is not about the money. No matter what everybody says. Some of my Rebbeim were below the poverty level their entire adult life. Some have large families and teach in multiple positions. We have to consider that the basic workday (For the scholar.) according to the Rambam was three hours.July 23, 2020 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #1886192
Does not compare. Half the yeshivah bochurim stop learning full time within the first year. (Short term learners.) The other half, start working on how to learn with a time limit. (Long term learners,) The exceptional ones, are those that learn all the time, except for the hour they spend with their wife.July 23, 2020 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1886245
“In general rallying yeshiva bochuim to the cause. Even in a good cause. Specifically here, it means telling them to plan their lives in accordance with the holy grail of the shidduch crisis.”
They are the only ones who can fix the shidduch crisis.
The girls certainly can’t.
Are you saying that the benefits of a bachur being able to learn a few extra years in so-called peace outweigh the middah of chesed?July 23, 2020 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #1886246
Nom, if you’re not ready to get married, gezunteheit.
But the general norm does not have to be that most boys only start dating at 23.
You want to have a few exceptions, no problem.July 24, 2020 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1886375
We are still waiting for Libby to get back with the data. I doubt their sincerity until then. So, all we have is an educated guess at a mathematical anomaly. If there really is one, (i. e. There are so much more twenty five year old girls available than twenty five year old boys.) there should be multiple solutions available. In the study of graphs, [as is the case with most mathematics] one number can not be changed, to achieve a solution. Changes have to happen in pairs. If there is a need for boys to marry younger, all the post high school boys that are employed, are the most eligible to fill such a need. Who has a harder time finding a shidduch; twenty one year old girl, looking for a learner or, twenty one year old working boy? Another question, how many twenty year olds, remain in yeshiva just for shidduchim?
Now, to your point. Assuming that there would be a need for bochurim to marry younger. One must stop his learning to perform a specific chessed. But learning precedes the acquiring middos. They follow naturally from responsibility and dedication, as people age. Also, Torah brings one to all these middos, as was discussed on some other thread. The learning of an independent mind, (One that is free is of external fashions and pressures.) is paramount and is not duplicated anywhere else in society. Not even computers. (At least so far.)July 24, 2020 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1886376
ending world poverty is a great cause to work toward. But it is not a chessed. Chessed is when it benefits a specific individual or community. Just putting benefits out there, does not make them reach the needy.July 24, 2020 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1886494
“Chessed is when it benefits a specific individual or community.”
The yeshivish/litvish single communityJuly 26, 2020 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1886611
“Just putting benefits out there, does not make them reach the needy.”
In this case it does.
If you want to also become a shadchan, the benefits will reach them quicker.
Anyone can make a shidduch.
I try all the time. Can’t help that people have ridiculous demands but I do my best.
And no, I don’t just match up pants with a skirt. I think for a long time before matching people up, to decide whether they’d be compatible.
Don’t be like all the other people sitting on their couches and dispensing sage advice while not actually doing anything.
Bottom line is the boys are causing the shidduch crisis which is worse than simply not helping those in need.
Actively causing world poverty rather than just not contributing.
Sorry for the harsh language but someone has to say it.
We all want to close our eyes and pretend it doesn’t exist.
It does.July 26, 2020 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1886755asimpleyidParticipant
so what do you propose, that those boys should stop learning? what if his rebbe tells him he shouldnt go into shidduchim until hes a certain age? what if he wont learn as well once hes married? what if hes gonna go work and now he can only learn half a day or only one seder a day? what if hes still developing his chinuch in learning? you know for a FACT that its worth it to cut these essential years short? i certainly dont.July 26, 2020 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1886781
Do most boys get told by their Rebbeim not to enter shidduchim until 23? I wouldn’t know.
But in Eretz Yisrael, all the boys are getting married at 19-21 years old
It seems to be working.July 26, 2020 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1886797kalvachomerParticipant
Eretz Yisrael and America are two different systemsJuly 27, 2020 12:12 am at 12:12 am #1886873SchnitzelBigotParticipant
If this will help anybody, I heard there’s a yeshiva open in the Poconos with 200+ ey guysJuly 27, 2020 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1887133
There is not one whiff of evidence, that putting more learning boys ‘out there’ will help anything.July 27, 2020 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1887140
“Bottom line the boys are causing the shidduch crises”
That is the mantra of certain organizations that seem to serve no purpose. Maybe one day they could offer some evidence. Until then, they are no different than all the other organizations that set their sights on changing the yeshiva curriculum or want bochurim to join the army.July 27, 2020 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1887220
I’m just saying that the boys should go to Eretz Yisrael at a younger ageJuly 28, 2020 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1887301asimpleyidParticipant
and the miss their mesivta curriculum? i think this is more complicated than your making it out to beJuly 28, 2020 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1887662
Could be.July 30, 2020 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1888192
mesivta, you should listen to this speech on Torah Anytime. It addresses the issue of boys being out of yeshiva now:
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Friedman
A Rare Oppertunity- Chizuk and Guidence on Dealing with Challenges
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