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It honestly seems to not make sense that davening is blamed and hence another lockdown is needed. Yet massive protests are allowed. Moreover with YK davening in shul is prohibited. Why not ban the massive protests? Why continue to allow massive protests? The restrictions on shuls needs to end.
Tachles: I suspect demonstrations are “allowed” for the same reason that the Trumpkopf continues to hold large campaign rallies, both indoors and outside with virtually no social distancing or masks (except for the small number of people used as “props” sitting directly behind the podium). Both are justified in the name of first amendment/free expression rights. I agree that most of the rules governing davening in shuls, numbers allowed etc. seem arbitrary and are enforced very unevenly. The restrictions are NOT just on shuls. In most states where such rules are still enforced, they obviously apply to all religious gatherings and most indoor gatherings but again no consistently or logically. In Montgomery county, for example, Rav Hershel Kranz of Silver Spring was finally successful yesterday in getting approval for a relaxation on the indoor seating limits for shuls in a county which still has some of the most restrictive rules in the U.S. and has refused to go along with the State’s easing of restrictions on indoor dining etc.
Protests are not ok and davening in a minyan that disregards social distancing and masking is not ok. But just because stupid politicians have messed up priorities, it DOESNT mean that we should be careless about our health. We would all be better off listening to our frum ehrliche doctors who have nothing to gain by publicizing their opinion except for getting nasty comments from people who have bad middos. And the doctors have been begging us to all do some simple things like wearing a mask.
It’s so unfortunate that we’ve reached this point. Had people done the simple things we could have avoided the current situation. But it’s just uncomfortable to G-d forbid put on a mask…. so here we are discussing another lockdown.
Speaking of bad middos, can everyone stop dumping on everyone without a mask? I am so sick of the self righteousness. If you don’t like it, stay away.
I think people who smoke are endangering people so i stay away. I think people who don’t buckle up are dangerous so i stay away. I think people who offer schnapps to kids or drink too much are dangerous so i stay away from them too. And the same for yentas who are dangerous to my spiritual health. Just learn to be responsible, stop judging everyone and grow up!
And regarding trump rallies, unless you’re honest enough to include protestors in the same sentence, drop it.
Regarding “dumping on people not wearing masks “, below is the exact text of a letter written and signed by a senior prominent well known Rosh Yeshiva. Since I don’t know that he allows this to be posted on a public forum, he will remain unnamed.
Infection rates are rising in our community. Those who did not get infected during the spring are getting infected now.
Everyone MUST wear a mask otherwise others will find an excuse not to. Although you may feel well, you may still be carrying the coronavirus. And you must always obey all the rules of masking and distancing. Wearing a mask is not a minor aveirah.
If you do not comply with masking rules, you are responsible for the deaths of older relatives of those whom you infect.
Even if no one dies – you need a kaparah for the psheia itself.
If you’re victim only becomes sick, you will need a kaparah for the yissurim you brought upon them and their families.
If you do have zchusim you are lucky because you will suffer for what you have done while you’re alive.
If you don’t have zchusim, there’s a place of unimaginable yissurim waiting for you.
You have been told to wear a mask. So “but I didn’t mean it” will not be an excuse before the Beis Din Shel Maalah.
He is welcome to give direction, your job is to follow, not to join.
Protests are not ok but their too large with thousands of angry screaming looters for the police department to stay in control so instead they corrupt YOU and everyone else and come up with an excuse to allow it although it breaks all the laws of coronavirus safety precautions of social distancing and other laws etc….
Welcome to the corrupt democratic and political world and generation
A person very ashamed to be living in such a corrupt world
HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICYSpeaking specifically for Israel… because the ONE protest going on is several hundred people total but millions of Jews go to shul on Yom Kippur (and likely a million each Shabbat). The number of potential interactions at a protest is 437,000 on a national basis. But the number of potential interactions in shul on a national basis is 37,000,000… or nearly 100 times more. It’s worse for schools. So if you’re going to act like these are the only 2 things people do and pretend this is a zero sum game, then you limit the activity that is 100 times worse. Similarly, it is legal to drive 55 mph on a highway, though some accidents will occur, but it is not legal to drive 100 mph because the likelihood of accidents is many times worse.
The source of my statistics is publicly available and was published yesterday. My wife is a professor here in Israel whose doctoral students are doctors doing research and treatment for COVID-19.Second, Rav Yitzchak Yosef, the Agudah, and pretty much every rav on Earth have said that not wearing a mask makes one liable for the death of others. Do we follow daas Torah only when it’s convenient? Or it doesn’t contradict a political talking point?
“: I suspect demonstrations are “allowed” for the same reason that the Trumpkopf continues to hold large campaign rallies, both indoors and outside with virtually no social distancing or masks (except for the small number of people used as “props” sitting directly behind the podium).“
Gadolhadorah,
How do you know this? We’re you at a rally and saw this or did the news show those people (and if they did don’t you think trump would give them masks too) or are you just assuming (which I for sure won’t want to be a donkey even if you’re ok with it)Their both ok and allowed.
“Why are massive protests okay, but davening in a minyan is not?”
simple. they aren’t ok. That’s it end of discussion
Coffee- c’mon, don’t you watch the news? Didnt you notice that in every single news story, every single person is wearing a mask t every single gathering without fail, in every protest, beachfront, park etc except the trump rallies?
<<eye roll>>
To the opening: No one said massive protests are OK. All large gatherings – minyans, goyishe weddings, protests, parties at bars, parties anywhere else, backyard BBQ’s – are risky. Be low-risk or higher risk: the choice is yours. And remember, don’t be stupid.
One promotes goodness in the world and one promotes destruction. Which force is behind each one? Now you know your answer.
Coffee: Next time try to have the caffienated version so you can stay up late and watch the TV coverage of the rallies. Beginning about 10 days ago, the event organizers started requiring masks for those sitting right behind the podium waving signs for the cameras while just about everyone else in the audience is crowded together and maskless (Unless of course, that One America and Fox which are the only networks covering these rallies have photoshopped off the masks from thousands of people). The protests are totally mixed. Some have majority masks and some are just as bad as a Trump Rally. Both super stupid but thats the world we are living in.
GH – again you forgot to add the part about these rallies being the only place and time within the entirety of the United States where people are without masks. Because you know people there were told they must go maskless, and all non trump rallies are just teeming with 100% masked and distant people.
It depends on the local government. If you have a pro-Trump rally in New York, you can be certain the government will object. That the government lets its supporters rally, and cracks down on its opponents (and socialists believe that trying to crush religion is a policy to be supported), suggests that those in charge do not perceive there to be a serious public health threat from Covid19 (if they did, they would be very protective of their supporters, and demand that their enemies, which includes frum Yidden, get together mask free).
It’s amazing to see how GH defends every dem position.
1: All??? I guess I’ve said a dozen times how frustrating it is that BOTH parties seem to end up with such terrible candidates. Why we get such mediocrity every 4 years is a mystery considering that there are some really outstanding you leaders in both parties with great ideas and much less partisanship. The Dems, who I clearly favor, seem to revert to their dysfunctional circular firing squad positions every time the Trumpkopf gives them an opportunity to stake out rational policy alternatives. On Masks, yes I do think that Dems generally are more prone to wear masks at their gathering than the MAGA rallies, where mask-wearing is akin to showing up with a Hillary Clinton in 2024 T-shirt.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. A minyan should follow the proper rules of masks wearing and social distancing.
If there people were inclined to listen to the government, they would not be protesting.
The question is on the mainstream media. And the answer is, whatever gets them a bigger story.
So here is a new question. Why do the pandemic deniers, never back themselves up? We are supposed to assume that it should not be a major disruption, because you do not care or know better?
Because there is no such thing as pandemic deniers. Its a term you made up to paint certain people a certain way according to the picture you want people to have.
You say your side. I can say mine.
“simple. they aren’t ok.”
Bingo. Like the Trump rallies. Not okay. He already has killed one of his prominent supporters, Herman Cain, and there will be more.
“goyishe weddings”
An August wedding in Maine has resulted in the deaths of eight people. The minister who officiated discourages mask use.
OrechDin – you mention poskim in Israel who require masks. So, if a Rav of a shul follows that psak and someone shows up without a mask or in a half-mask – what happens? Do they get an aliya? Or do we now have separate shuls with and without masks?
Maybe we could use a 2×2 mehitza with traditional men/women separation in one dimension and mask/non-mask dimension in another. I saw this happening spontaneously sans the mehitza.
The virus is very smart. It knows not to bother protests and rioting when people protest and riot the phoney baloney blm stories. Gd forbid there should be a peaceful gathering of prayers or a else and all of a sudden it breaks out.
Well folks, the ranchers have s word for that and it’s called bull manure.
Massive protests are not OK, and davening in an indoor minyan is not ok, davening indoors without a mask is not ok, but Corona seems to clarify who cares about others quite clearly, with those who refuse to wear masks in the category of “I do not care for others”, and those who do “I do care for others”, and those who want to daven indoors and do not, as ” I care a great deal for others”, and those who daven in their houses even more so. Its just clear, how much one cares for others, in stores, on the street, in schul, and its now out in the open for all to see. I would call it an “adverse effect” of Coronavirus. We are months or even days from the vaccines and people are so tired of Corona restrictions, that schools were opened against all better judgements, in a blind frenzy of “schools must be open”, even at the cost of spreading this deadly illness, and it was the parents who actively aided and even demanded so. Even if it means killing someone down the line, all in the name of a good Torah education of course. Both in Israel and the exile this occurred. Shame upon us for opening our schools and not transitioning to 100% remote learning. Shame on those who publicly walk through crowded places without a mask. For those who care have a good year and for those who dont, I hope you end up caring one day so that you should have a good year too.
I have been pretty strong in believing people are entitled to have their different opinions on this matter but i am going on record this erev yom kipper saying your post is wrong, it is awful, it is divisive, insidiary and a disgusting statement to make about other yidden.
You and everyone around you need to stop holding yourself as the right one thereby judging everyone around you as wrong. And to add intent or reason? Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
Try that reasoning at the shiva, go to the families sitting shiva and explain to them that it is wrong to judge someone, and those that contributed to the passing of your loved one to Corona, who purposely did not wear a mask, how that person who is now a partner in your precious loved ones passing, was righteous, amd those who judged them wrong. What you call “disgusting” is a cover up of you being in the category of those who can’t judge because they are not familiar with the way Torah law works. You are so busy with Lashon Hara laws (which usually bears the extent of your knowledge of Jewish law) that you missed the section that states Pikuach Nefesh overrides all and you also missed the section in Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 425, as well as 426. Feel free to look them up, it would be a great teshuva for you to gain knowledge of Jewish law and not be so quick to call “disgusting” judging that which the Torah calls disgusting…… Too quick to judge here too….. Guilty of your own crime, Gmar Tova
Your post went from judgemental to incoherent. I’m sorry for whatever loss of yours prompted your judgement of the motives of everyone around you. And consider anything you see as wrong to be pikuach nefesh. To assume all deaths are murders… Judgement has it’s place. But be careful where you use it.
Im sorry for your loss, it must have been blinding.
May Hashem give you the strength to recover.To mark or not. The overwhelming Jewish question of the day. Right up there with all the other critical this that makes us observant.
Of our own sense of ignorant righteousness.
It is unsettling that people come to shul and other people’s well-being is not on their mind and face.
If one does not wear a mark too much, that is not such an issue. Do not go on and on defending it. Nobody asked the layman if masks work or if they are required. Clergy across the country are preaching about the ills of wearing masks. This is causing a further detachment from religion and religious leadership. For what?
How about both-are not ok?
“Clergy across the country are preaching about the ills of wearing masks”
What “clergy” are preaching to ignore the strong admonitions from our public health experts and virtually all gadolei yisroel begging the frum tzibur to wear masks and socially distance. I could care less about what some right wing x’tian galach who thinks a mask is taking away his liberty and part of a vast George Soros conspiracy to control the world.Finally someone is making sense here …. ישר כחך
orechdin: thanks for secifically stating you are talking about EY. My Rov does not require masks(as of now) and therefore I dont wear one.
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