Why are they making us into boys?

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  • #600746

    blabla
    Participant

    As I go through the schooling system, it seems pretty awkward that us girls are expected to look up meforshim inside sefarim as if we were boys who knew how to learn. I find it rediculous that every time I have such homework my father does it for me. Why do they do this? What’s the point in it? To prepare us for seminary?! Okay and then…why do seminaries do it?

    #829790

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Whats a high school girl doing up at 2:15 am?

    #829791

    blabla
    Participant

    Homework and posting every so often cuz I need a break.

    Believe me if it was my choice I wouldn’t be up late.

    #829792

    Agreer
    Participant

    It’s to prepare you for the rest of your life as boys… you know, getting a good education, including a masters degree, so you can support your family… working 8-12 hour days just to make ends meet… training your mind to be analytical so you can understand the insurance policies, mortgage documents, and retirement/bank accounts your tzaddik won’t have a clue about…

    #829793

    sem graduate
    Member

    While I agree that it makes no sense (I went through the same system and hated it), I believe the reason they do it is because they are not giving you very difficult stuff to look up, yet you find it difficult – they want you to appreciate what the men are doing, all day, every day, in a more difficult version

    #829794

    old man
    Participant

    It is the Torah that God gave to his Chosen People. Isn’t it wonderful to study and know as much as possible of it?

    #829795

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Ha ha Agreer, soon the kallah will have to give her chosson a kesubah under the chuppah, with how much she will support her husband with.

    Someone was just telling me that she went to Bais Yaakov in williamsburg a long time ago and the chassidish girls did not go to the classes in which they had to use seforim as that was their minhag.

    #829796

    aidel_maidel
    Participant

    blabla, why dont you go ask you pricipal? she prob wont have an answer for you… when i was in high school my parents came down to speak to my principal how ridiculous my teacher was being- she was nearly teaching us gemara… and guess what?? she didnt have an answer for them! go figure;) she just said ‘her hands are tied and there is nothing she cld do abt it’!!

    #829797

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    It’s to prepare you for the rest of your life as boys… you know, getting a good education, including a masters degree, so you can support your family… working 8-12 hour days just to make ends meet… training your mind to be analytical so you can understand the insurance policies, mortgage documents, and retirement/bank accounts your tzaddik won’t have a clue about…

    Second.

    #829798

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    There is another thread on this topic, see

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/girls-learning-gemorah

    There are hundreds more practical subjects girls should be learning instead of Abarbenels, Ramba”ns, and Kli Yokors.

    #829799

    MeinMeinung
    Member

    What happened with the old cooking, baking, sewing and many more which a woman has to do later on in life? While schools do offer one or more of these it should be the main focus.

    I once heard from a mechanuch that there are many more good girls than boys (sorry boys) because they have more tests and therefore have more structure. While this may or may not be true maybe giving tests on meforshim has more significance than on cooking or sewing.

    #829800

    MichaelC
    Member

    Rav Sternbuch writes in Halachos V’Hanghogos, that if there is only one choice between opening a Kodesh school for girls or a kodesh school for boys, the girls Kodesh school takes precedence nowadays.

    The reason is that the street influence has become more immoral,since World war 1 (which Chofetz chaim said the world fell tons of Madreigo’s after), and ‘sechof’ (garbage) of foreign ideals which penetrate into the Jewish homes, women like Sarah Schneerer, it is known all the opposition to her movement, faded after World war 2, and a Rabbi i hear Shiurim from said, if you are going to Poland make sure to visit her Kevurah, she is responsible for tens and thousands of Bnei and Bat Torah and many more for eternity.

    Although Chofetz Chaim himself said women should only learn (many types of ) mussar sefarim (which is based on a Rishon that says this), i suppose the street influence has become worse, and top Gedolim have given Haskomas to organisations like Or Navva which teach women many types of Torah.

    #829801

    bpt
    Participant

    ” Why are they making us into boys? “

    For the same reason they want you to work full time. Boys were turned into girls, so someone has to lead the family.

    And from what I see, you “guys” are doing a fine job!

    #829802

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi blabla.

    You make a great point in that what you have to do now requires some study skill background

    that girls are not necessarily taught.

    Just try to do your best. The best way to learn something, long term, is to do the footwork

    yourself.

    #829803

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Blabla: You are correct. It is silliness. They should teach useful skills like applied mathematics or something if they want to do something intellectual.

    #829804

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Popa: I think she has a valid point. After all, we are not supposed to solicit geirim!

    #829805

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    midwesterner: Now I’m confused. What does geirim have to do with this?

    #829806

    midwesterner
    Participant

    She’s complaining that she is a girl and we are trying to turn her into a boy. But if women are not Jewish, aren’t we then trying to convert them?

    #829807

    littleapple
    Member

    pba: could be like the RMBM only those whose hearts move them can be like shevt Laivi today and toraso umanoso, mai haiche timtzeh a shita l’rabim?

    #829808

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    I am with you all the way! I hated it when I went through the system and my (very learned) father disapproved of many aspects including A) girls should not be opening gemaras, B) Torah She B’Chsave should NOT be memorized for the sake of memorization eg kapitlach Tehilim which you will NOT remember the day after the test (despite the holy rebbetzin’s claims).

    Our girls are being tortured. Do they need something to fill their time and minds with? Yes. But the amount of pressure and piles of mifarshim that they are taught go way beyond that. The top 5% can handle the workload? Fine – let them take the time they are spending looking up gemaras and mishnayos and spend it helping a weaker classmate master the basic chumash and rashi. That will give her what to do, and challenge her in more, and useful, ways. Fore example, getting along with those they wouldn’t choose to, teaching (or even only homework help!) skills, patience, perseverance, tolerance.

    Kudos and Hatzlacha to anyone who has the gumption to open up a girls high school where the girls actually ENJOY learning and don’t spend three hours a night after a long school day on homework. They’re KIDS!!!

    #829809

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oh yes, I got it a few minutes later, but then I wasn’t online.

    hee hee. That’s true.

    #829810

    cinderella
    Member

    Maybe it’s just me but I never minded learning Meforshim like the Kli Yakar, Malbim, Ramban… I found it made class more interesting. I hated it at the beginning because it was really hard but then i grew into it.

    Who says the Torah is exclusively for men? Why should they be the only ones who know how to open up a Ramban and understand it? It’s YOUR Torah too, don’t you want to be able to learn it??

    I’m not saying that in my spare time I open up a sefer and learn but I do realize now that it’s important for girls to learn. I hope that you can grow to enjoy the different meforshim and really gain from them.

    All the best.

    #829811

    cb1
    Member

    So that’s the reason why my sisters were never in school! I could never figure out why my mother always forced me to go to yeshiva and let my sisters stay home whenever they wanted under the excuse of “Babysitting”. Now i finally understand! (Baruch Hashem for the CR :D)

    #829812

    cv
    Participant

    “It’s to prepare you for the rest of your life as boys… you know, getting a good education, including a masters degree, so you can support your family… working 8-12 hour days just to make ends meet… training your mind to be analytical so you can understand the insurance policies, mortgage documents, and retirement/bank accounts your tzaddik won’t have a clue about…”

    the best post!!!

    #829813

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    cinderella- i totally agree,

    in the beginning i did have to get used to doing all the meforshim (not only rashi) but now that we do a lot of meforshim , i love it! if i ever really do just wanna pick up the chumash and learn in my life i am able to understand it without asking my father. it’s the best feeling in the world to be able to understand and learn our Torah!

    #829814

    deiyezooger
    Member

    Girl schools by nature our competitive, they need to compete with each other so the level of learning keeps going up. Never mind the fact that most students dont realy look things up themselves. (I used to do my sisters limudei kodesh homework all the time, her teacher had no problem with it as long the homework was handed in on time…)

    #829815

    blabla
    Participant

    Glad to know I’m not the only one who thinks today’s schooling system is insane! My principal was asked this question once and they said that “all BYs teach it” so that’s why they do too! Excuse-its part of the BY curriculum. That’s the most insane answer I’ve heard! For all those who said its to prepare us for work…that’s a discussion in itself why boys who are supposed to be the earners are learning and girls are suffering quadrupel what they’re supposed to. Girls are meant to be ther mother and men are meant to go out to work. In today’s unfortunate yeshivish society (not stereotyping, just saying many people) the girls are expected to: be the mommy, be a good wife, have 3 meals always ready, greet husband with a smile, keep cool, work full time, be skinny, be pretty, what else….lets add…its not enough?! :0

    #829816

    BeGavra
    Participant

    Knowledge as a whole is supposed to be unisex (accessible to both genders). Leave it to us Jews to mess up that concept too….

    #829817

    littleapple
    Member

    BeGavra: Jews did not mess anything up, we are fixing up what has resulted from actions of the umos and the yetzer and we are accomplishing Baruch Hashem!!

    #829818

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Who says the Torah is exclusively for men? Why should they be the only ones who know how to open up a Ramban and understand it? It’s YOUR Torah too, don’t you want to be able to learn it??

    That’s interesting, but the fact is that the mitzva of limmud torah, which is the mitzva to learn and study torah just to understand it, is a mitzva that only applies to men. And all those chazal and mosholim about the king’s letter to the people and reading it, and whatever, are only addressed to men.

    If you want to do something intellectual, why don’t you do something useful like applied mathematics? I know a whole crew of frum french guys getting Phd’s in that.

    #829819

    skiaddict
    Member

    Where does maths come in? Honestly i dont know why men feel so threatened, and get so nervous and defensive, whenever were talking about girls learning gemora or whateva.. I sometimes get the feeling like men are scared to let women learn, because they are too good at it or something.

    #829820

    Jothar
    Member

    I once asked a poseik about this, as it looks like all seminaries and girls’ schools are coming around to Rav Soloveitchik and against the poskim.

    #829821

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Honestly i dont know why men feel so threatened, and get so nervous and defensive, whenever were talking about girls learning gemora or whateva..

    Do I seem nervous and defensive? More like mocking.

    #829822

    cinderella
    Member

    popa- Fine, take the mitzvah. I’m doing it Lishma. (and I prob. get sechar too. It’s just a commandment for men cuz they need the whole requiring thing to actually do it. Unlike… oh right, women.)

    Note: that last part was in a mocking tone too

    #829823

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    popa – How does the fact that women aren’t COMMANDED to do study torah logically lead to “go study math”? True, women don’t have a chiyuv, but if they want intellectual stimulation, why is mathematics better than torah?

    You say “applied mathematics” – are you specifically excluding mathematical theory?

    #829824

    Nechomah
    Participant

    I was under the impression that we do have a chiyuv to learn in order to be able to fulfil what we were metzuveh in. Considering that the 6 mitzvos temidios are for all yidden, then we do have a pretty big chiyuv to learn even if it’s just to understand better the mitzvah of H-Shem Echod. I’m not talking about learning gemara or the pressures girls are under to learn so much in school, but stam a woman opening a sefer, even if it’s chumash with meforshim seems a pretty basic skill that all women should be able to feel competent in. We don’t need to go back to only learning from the Tzene U’rene (sp?).

    #829825

    skiaddict
    Member

    Nechomah – i totally agree with you, in fact it IS a mitzva for women to learn things like halochos that apply to them, and learning it inside is much much better.

    #829826

    giggle girl
    Participant

    personally, i loved looking things up in sefarim! granted, i did find it hard many times but i really feel i learned a lot from it.

    #829827

    I love Navi!

    I recommend Rabbi Yigal Ariel’s Seforim on Navi – so beautiful and explain it so well.

    #829828

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Nechama, I’d like to respond to that.

    I was under the impression that we do have a chiyuv to learn in order to be able to fulfil what we were metzuveh in.

    That is the case. The reason is in order that you be able to fulfill.

    Considering that the 6 mitzvos temidios are for all yidden, then we do have a pretty big chiyuv to learn even if it’s just to understand better the mitzvah of H-Shem Echod.

    Ok, that is a big jump. You are saying that one needs to understand Torah in order to understand Hashem’s oneness. I would respond two things:

    A. Where do you get that from?

    B. Look, it must be wrong, because our parents and grandparents didn’t do it that way. So whatever the theory we need to answer it, the answer isn’t that Nechama in 2011 thought of a great new svara which reworks our entire theory of women’s avodas Hashem.

    I’m not talking about learning gemara or the pressures girls are under to learn so much in school, but stam a woman opening a sefer, even if it’s chumash with meforshim seems a pretty basic skill that all women should be able to feel competent in.

    That is not the same as you were arguing. Having the skills you refer to certainly is unconnected to understanding Hashem.

    We don’t need to go back to only learning from the Tzene U’rene

    Why not? It was good enough for mine bubbe. It is true that my bubbe lived in an unheated shack with an outhouse and owned only one dress. But, I don’t assume that her judaism was backward.

    #829829

    skiaddict
    Member

    Uh actually the world has changed quite a bit since your bobbes times… What worked for them does not work for us anymore. You do know about Sara Shneirer and the revolution that was necessary in girls education, dont you?

    #829830

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    skiaddict:

    I agree, the world has changed quite a bit. And I do support girls schools teaching girls basic chumash and navi skills, so some extent.

    I was responding to nechama, who seemed to think that this is the real way it is supposed to be.

    #829831

    emunah613
    Member

    Learning Navi on a deeper level explains to us the inner workings of our own yetzer hara. The battles that the Neviim had to fight were to teach us how to fight off our personal battles. On a very surface level, here is an example; There are specific cycles that reoccur in Navi where the Klal behaves, then they begin to sin, then Hashem sends an enemy to attack, then Bnei Yisroel suffer, Hashem sends the Navi to help them fight, they succeed in battle. Cycle reoccurs. Each battles represents a stage in life and specific challenges that people face.

    Learning Navi is most appropriate for all Jewish people but I can understand that it can be boring if you are reading like history without synthesizing the

    information into your personal life. I can assure you that if you learn Navi with the deeper meanings-you will consider it your best class!

    ps There were many incidents that were not recorded in Navi because they were not relevant to guide us.

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