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This is a matter of PIKUACH NEFESH
People are shamed, screamed at, and excommunicated for speaking out against vaccines as if they were talking KEFIRAH, ch”v!!? Peoples accounts across the country are being locked out, of Facebook, Twitter and all other social media platforms if you Gd forbid said something that is not nice about the vaccines. Since when does this happen?? What if people had bad adverse reactions (which happened 1000’s of times) to the vaccines, why can’t I put that on my social media??
Why can’t I have another opinion other than yours?
Why are doctors threatened to be killed or lose their license if they speak out against the vaccines?
What the heck is happening?
Why the deafening silence? Why can’t we have a discussion like normal human beings and interact and share information?
Why am I an anti-vaxxer if I don’t like this new technology (rMNA) even though I vaccinate myself and my kids with other vaccines??
Let’s see if this will get taken down or not.
Moderator if you have a yiddish heart – DON’T DO IT! don’t take this downPeople tend to think that the government is good (who can you trust if you can’t trust the government) and politicians on both sides of the aisle say their people should take the vaccine
This is why you could be considered an anti vaxxer because you are bucking the trend and saying we can’t trust the government
Well, if the Gedolim say to take it – which they do – then perhaps saying otherwise IS Kefirah.
Yes it is a metter of pikuach nefesh. People who did not take the vaccine have died and are currently dying. If you have verified facts and science to back up what you have to say let’s hear it. If you just want to pass around hearsay, speculation and fear then I see no problem with silencing such people. Freedom of speech does not allow people to use it when others are harmed (yelling fire in a crowded theatre).
What doctors are threatened? Do you have anything to back up what you say?
Welcome to the 21st century left-wing progressive dictatorship. Where voicing the wrong thoughts will land you in a penitentiary colony near you where you’ll be released after a proper reeducation and rehabilitation to correct you prior to reentry into society.
Actually, the picture is quite different. Yes, the vaccine has become politicized, and that is tragic. Political views should not supersede science. There is a serious problem here. And this extends to the entire anti-vaxx movement. It is based on fear mongering first, and secondarily on junk science. I made it my business to listen to quite a few of the anti-vaccine presentations, and I am appalled at the sheer volume of falsehoods that are being presented as if they were scientific fact. I would suggest that people fact check the dribble being presented as science. It’s alarming. And so many people believe it.
Yes, vaccines can have adverse reactions. And the vaccines for COVID are no different. Yet, the statistics are clear, the adverse reactions and re-infections are extremely low.
I would be more than happy to TALK. But once the anti-vaxxers begin citing anecdotal data, or outright lies, we can no longer engage in debate. The truth here is that the anti-vaxx movement, whether for all or just for COVID, have made a decision. Now they are stuck with spinning anything they see or hear to support it. Typical junk science – first conclude and them seek the support. As long as the movement against vaccines bases their approach on lies and other manners of dishonesty, I will not engage in debate with them.
Here’s a hot take: I have no problem with people being excommunicated for speaking out against getting immunized for COVID-19.
Whatever health concerns you may have over the three vaccines, it should be abundantly clear that it’s still a better choice than to not get vaccinated. Not only will getting vaccinated protect yourself, but it will also protect those around you. It’s pure gayvah to talk about vaccinations and other COVID protective measures as “personal choice”. No, you’re elderly neighbor isn’t choosing to have you spit your diseased breath into her face because you wanted to say Gut Shabbos.
@BalHabooze,
Why is this vaccine different from prior vaccines that were introduced in the middle of a pandemic? (Like Polio)
The only difference is that in hindsight it is obvious to you that the vaccines ended Polio so it was worth it. But when the vaccines were new, no one knew the long term ramifications. But they knew the downside of Polio.
Yserbius,
The elderly neighbor would be protected if they got the vaccine
And if they won’t what was the point of it?
You can do personaly what you want but don’t try to influence others when it is a question of their health. I don’t think that you would be happy if someone died ch’v because of it. The protection of the vaccine outweighs the discomfort.
> The elderly neighbor would be protected if they got the vaccine
coffee, out of 100 neighbors, 10 will be low on their antibodies, and 3 will get sick ….
I am really puzzled my this behavior. We learned over centuries a lot of good practices that we apply without doing a heshbon each time whether it is necessary: don’t sneeze on people, wash your hands before eating (what is percentage of food with E-coli?!), stopping on a red light (what is percentage that someone will walk at you or police hiding nearby), saying hello (what is percentage that are depressed and really need a hello), wearing tzitzis (what is a chance you are going to “follow your eyes” while on a shopping trip), wearing shoes (what is a chance there is glass on the floor)
Use j&j which does not use this technology.
benignuman: WB. Haven’t seen you in ages.
The risks of Polio were far greater than the risks of COVID-19. Thus the risk/benefit analysis was much different.
Someone up thread mentioned testing of the polio vaccine. The Salk vaccine was given an early release. There were loud complaints about the design of the testing of the vaccine. And because it was so new, there were no longitudinal data studies as follow ups with the recipients. (Now we all know about Post Polio Syndrome.) And apparently many of our parents thought that the vaccination gave their children a chance of a life outside an iron long or crippled. Where I grew up not far from Lkwd, 6 kids had polio, one died, the rest were physically crippled for life. (The March of Dimes has a good history of polio and the vaccines.)
RebE > Use j&j which does not use this technology
I think he already found a tiruts for that also. But let’s put aside the medical discussion – it is understandable that someone can get lost in medical terminology about a cutting-edge technology. Go, down to basics. So, someone is not vaccinating, and thus, are a higher danger to the society around him. If he is Jewish, then to the Jewish society.
Then, there are kosher solutions:
– limit your interaction, especially with vulnerable people,
– do not congregate in large groups
– wear a mask
– do weekly COVID test (this is now offered as an alternative to some government workers)It may be unclear where exactly to draw the line, but a person should do some hishtadlus in bein adam l’havero in this case. I hope that vaccine sceptics can report on what they and their haverim do in this regard. If they are not, then we need to talk about middos in a wider context, not just about medical and statistical education.
We learned over centuries a lot of good practices that we apply without doing a heshbon each time whether it is necessary: don’t sneeze on people,
That’s not “life changing”
wash your hands before eating (what is percentage of food with E-coli?!),
you’re not forced to, it’s your choicestopping on a red light (what is percentage that someone will walk at you or police hiding nearby), it’s for cars too, not just people and they go a lot faster
saying hello (what is percentage that are depressed and really need a hello),
again, not mandatedwearing tzitzis (what is a chance you are going to “follow your eyes” while on a shopping trip), that’s again to protect yourself
wearing shoes (what is a chance there is glass on the floor) again that’s to protect yourself and btw shoes בעצם are more comfortable not just for protection
I’m not saying don’t get the vaccine, I’m saying once you got the vaccine you shouldn’t be forced to “protect someone who doesn’t want it
Quite frankly, the unconstitutional silencing of certain point of views (e.g., anti-vax) actually hurt the sane arguments on the other side.
Let me explain:
First of all, it is unconstitutional. I know, I know. Twitter, Facebook are private. But when private companies have swallowed up 75%+ of the public discourse arena then constitutional protections must extend to them, as well. Its plain logic.
More importantly, as a free society we encourage public discourse – partly because of its evolutionary ability to sift out the garbage. It does not happen right away but eventually, nonsensical arguments like those espoused by the anti-vaxxers are exposed for the utter garbage that they are. Without the dialogue, this will never happen and the garbage arguments will forever remain hidden beneath the surface waiting to trap its next victim.
Free Speech NOW!
@BalHabooze
If it’s mRNA you take issue with, surely what you should be doing is encouraging the uptake of the Oxford Astrzeneca vaccine?besalel
” partly because of its evolutionary ability to sift out the garbage”
The problem is for whatever reason it hasn’t been working. Chazal say people don’t lie if they will get caught. Yet we see this is no longer true. A fellow publicly said by morning of August 13 , Trump would be reinstated. Yet here we are, why put an exact date, he knew nobody would care, will he lose followers ? not many.
A doctor has said that in 2 years 75% of those vaccinated will be dead. Will he lose credibility in 2023? I doubt it. He publicly and repeatedly lies about NEJM studies, for example he claims a NEJM study shows a increase in miscarriages amount those vaccinated, it didn’t say that but it doesn’t matter. People still quote him as an authoritative source.
I don’t know how to reverse this trend, but unconstitutionally forcing private companies to provide platform to lies is unlikely to help.
and given my experience discussing vaccinations in the past, I am very skeptical that if only more public discourse would take place minds would change.
coffee > you’re not forced to, it’s your choice
> you shouldn’t be forced to “protect someone who doesn’t want itWhat happened with being a baal middos and tzedokah? I think you are tripped by the abnormality of the situation. I am sure, if a reasonable poor person approaches you, you are not saying “you should have gone to college”. So, if some poor uneducated souls walk around, you won’t inconvenience yourself? And, again, as they are endangering vulnerable people, you are indirectly doing the same.
All the people screaming hysterically AGAINST anyone who questions the vaccine are a big cause in why people don’t trust it. In a society where people can not talk or have questions without hysterics you are asking for conspiracy theories’ and mistrust to grow.
I am vaccinated and 10000000% pro vax. Even so I will admit that twice when arguing with anti-vaxxers they caught me repeating baloney that I believed because I had been told that by reputable sources about the safety of the vaccine. I didn’t change my mind but I did start to understand the resistance. Very well.
Stop the exaggerated hysterics. ( a healthy twenty year old is very unlikely to die if they don’t get vaccinated) Acknowledge that the anti Corona vaxxers may be right about some points and adre them honestly . Then you will have a much better chance of convincing them that the vaccine is a lot safer than not taking it.
Calling those of us who don’t want a jab of these cell-based shots “anti-vaxxers” is very misleading and reveals how non-informed the bullies are. Traditional vaccines boost the immune system by giving the body a bit of the virus or disease to boost the immune response to these illnesses and viruses. In the vast majority of cases these vaccines work very well to prevent infection.
Cell-based shots are technically not vaccines, they don’t boost the the immune system in the traditional way; they are supposed to “teach cells how to respond”, in this case to the covid. However, by injecting DNAs, mRNAs, or proteins and vectors, the body does not become immune to covid. First CDC said that people in hospitals and those who died of covid-19 after recieving the so-called vaccine, is only .1%. Now that rate is climbing, in some states it is now at 4%. People who were “vaccinated” are losing their immunity at a rapid pace, requiring a booster shot a mere 2-4 after recieving TWO initial shots. In some cities we are getting a 75% infection rate from breakthrough cases of people infected after recieving these so-called “vaccines”. It has been proven that those who are “vaccinated” and those who are not, carry the same viral load if infected and transfer it at the same rate. So why are people screaming at those who don’t want it if those who are “vaccinated” are spreading it just the same?! And how exactly are these covid shots the same as traditional vaccinations which in the majority of cases actually prevents people from getting infected and transferring it others when these covid shots don’t help prevention and spreading of the virus?!
The mount of brainwashing about this so-called “vaccine” despite the fact that it doesn’t prevent virus spread, and despite accounts of death and very serious side effects attributed to these shots, and despite the fact that it is still in trial stage. The suppression of info on lifesaving drugs that treat covid-19, the forcing of people to take this so-called “vaccine” despite it’s serious side effects, and the forcing it on young adults and children is absolutely criminal.
smerel
But a Healthy 20 year old can be a vector and host to the virus which can cause an older person to become infected.
> Acknowledge that the anti Corona vaxxers may be right about some points and adre them honestly .
I thought lots of people were talking here. I agree that there are gov sources that turn information the way they need today, and there are some reasonable anti-vaccine arguments. Still, the way anti-vaxxers present their information (or, more likely, copy it from dark corners of internet or “russia today”) does not help their cause. If the same person is against mRNA for reason A, of J&J of reason B, of masks for reason C, and of Social distancing for reason D – and all reasons are not very reasonable – what is a chance he came to these conclusions through logical thinking? not much. It means that the person’s thinking ability is overwhelmed by a stream of propaganda that he is consuming. If this person lives in China or Russia, this would be understandable, but if this is a Jewish person living in a free world, there is something wrong here. It seems that we have pockets of the community that is getting sucked into the DarkWeb, some of them not even using internet, but hearing it from friends.
We say, רופא כל בשר ומפליא לעשות, maybe, we are referring to a vaccine that can fool the body to think it is sick before becoming sick to create antibodies to fight when becoming sick as it says אני ה’ רפאיך, Hashem prevents us from becoming sick.
Philosopher, why don”t you say that he should get the J&J vaccine which I received in March not having the above problem?
“some of them not even using internet, but hearing it from friends.”
Hate to break it to you but you are one of those “friends”. Sucking people into what you have decided on your own to be fact based on what you have gleanwd on your own. Completely unwilling to hear the areas where your reality failed to materialize. Exactly what you warn others about is what you are doing.Aaq,
I don’t think people should be forced to be mensches
And yet again the vulnerable people should protect themselves they should wear double masks
Another idea, if you are going to mask mandate then make the masks free (subsidized) because according to you it’s government’s job to protect people so the government should provide it
> I don’t think people should be forced to be mensches
I am not talking about forcing, I am talking what is proper for us to do, so you seem to be on board
> make the masks free (subsidized)
makes sense. whoever here does not have a mask, please ask mods to forward your address to me, I’ll send you some, bli neder. I actually put a bag in one shul early on, when they were hard to find and expensive (with uncertain effect). And, I think, a number of places, like hospitals, give away some. Also consider spending some of the stimulus money on that.
Always,
You’re missing my point (in your second part) or maybe because I missed your original point)
The hygiene thing was about masks or about shots?
Reb Eliezer, the J&J shot uses DNA which is just as bad as mRNA, and theoretically even worse because it definitely goes into the nucleus of cells. The J&J shot has caused very serious diseases for many, particularly in young adults . Again, I’ve said it a few times and I’ll repeat it here; it is true that the majority of people who got these cell-based shots did not have adverse reactions however I think that booster shots will definitely cause serious illnesses and I have already heard of very serious adverse reactions and even deaths of those who got booster shots. I don’t see the point in this. These shots’ immunity, if there is immunity at all, are extremely short-lived and breakthrough cases of those vaccinated are as high as 74% according to one study. In Israel it is currently at 53% while the unvaccinated positive cases are only at 43% , so what is the point of this? I know people say that with the “vaccinations” the cases are not so serious, it’s only one percent, however these percentages are rising and I’m sure there are many undereported cases, but in any case, the numbers of serious cases are on the rise.
It is not a good idea to play around with one’s body. However, I believe everyone should do what they feel is the most comfortable and beneficial for them. I don’t have a problem with those believing in the shot, I have a problem with people forcing others to take the shot, whether it is the government or private employers doing the forcing, no one can be coorced into something they are against.
Philosopher- the reason the government should not get involved in forcing people to get vaccinated is because that should be left to medical professionals. Period.
Unfortunately you are doing just that but louder and more frantic. You are not a medical orofessional and are not trained or skilled in the ins and outs of this vaccine or virus anymore than i am. You should be adking your doctor for guidance, and begging others to adk THEIR DOCTORS for guidance, not frantically and dramatically dpreading horror stories and random findings at people you never met.I don’t think people should be vaccinated without facts but i don’t know why you feel qualified to spread your personal findings around instead of encouraging people to get educated.
Are you aware that if one person suffers because you talked them out of a shot it is on your cheshbon, r”l?
Syag, there are many medical professionals talking against these shots. The reason I am talking against these shots is because everyone was busy bashing those who didn’t want it. So I explained my viewpoint about it. I believe every adult has the right to hear everyone else’s opinion. Just like the mask, it’s ridiculous when people say, “if you talk or write against it you’ll be liable for people’s death”…. I always say, people can write for and against things and everyone has a right to decide for themselves what to do.
What about the non-doctors campaigning for the covid-19 shots? Tens of thousands of people got covid-19 despite being vaccinated and thousands got serious diseases and many died from taking the shot. Will you also hold those who pushed for these vaccines and argued with those of us who are against it accountable for the deaths and serious illnesses that the shot caused?
What you people write is despicable and comes from a place of no emunah. People are adults. People are entitled to hear both sides. People are entitled to make their own decisions. And at the end of the day, life and death, health and sickness, is in the hands of Hashem regardless what a person chooses.
People have such chutzpah. They are allowed to blame and bash us supposed “non-vaxxers” non-stop for spreading covid-19 and causing people to die, but when we explain our views we are “murdering” people by causing others not to take the shot! This is absolutely disgusting.
People can read whatever we supposed “non-vaxxers” write about the covid shots and people can read what the pro-covid shots write. And then people ARE ENTITLED to come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions. Who are you people to decide what is best for everyone just because you have an opinion about it?
There are many professionals, doctors and professors who came out against the shots. However, they were taken off social media, their articles are not written up, their videos taken down, they are given the label “conspiracists”. Many doctors are coorced to go with the mainstream version, they don’t want to be sidelined and their careers endangered so don’t talk as if all in the medical profession are for this shot.
If people want to ask their doctors what to do, that is their right, if people are more comfortable taking the shots that’s their right, if people are not comfortable taking the shot, that’s their right too.
No one can has a right to bash others for their personal medical choices nor do they have a right to bash others for voicing their opinions about their choices. Because if we don’t have the right to voice our opinion then you don’t have that right as well.
Phil, I don’t agree. When other peoole are involved, veavto lereacha comes into play and maybe your personal rights have to be put aside.
Philosopher – I don’t know if you even read my post. I am not a pro vaxxer or an anti vaxxer. I think that whole concept is moronic. Speak to your medical professional who actually knows the details and follow him. I agree that the media has been supressing critical information regarding vaccine injuries and effective treatments and I agree you should advocate telling that to people and that they should then discuss it with their doctors.
If you read my post to you you would know I didn’t bash you for your medical choices. I myself am on the fence about who should get or needs to get vaccinated. But my comment is on the bullying tactics, the screaming and shouting and the page long diatribes one after another. If you believe people need to know the truth, and I agree with you that too much is being censored to prevent hearing the truth, then ASK THE DOCTORS. If you were screaming and yelling for people to be aware that the info is misleading and telling them to go speak to doctors, I would have applauded you. As I said hear and in a thousand other places, it’s about the delivery.
If you know 100 people who were injured by the vaccine that would not qualify you tell people not to take it. Just as knowing 100 people who died from covid does not qualify someone to bully people into taking the vaccine People need to speak to their MEDICAL PROFFESSIONALS. And if for some odd reason you believe that their doctors are less informed than you and that is why you need to push so hard, well….
I believe covid can be dangerous. I believe that vaccines can be dangerous. I believe that Hashem decides what your ultimate path will entail but that includes making informed choices and speaking to medical professionals.
You are complaining that people are bashing you for personal medical choices and voicing your opinions about them. No. If you mean me then no. Voice all you want. And give others the same courtesy.
“What you people write is despicable and comes from a place of no emunah. People are adults. People are entitled to hear both sides. People are entitled to make their own decisions. And at the end of the day, life and death, health and sickness, is in the hands of Hashem regardless what a person chooses.”
This paragraph is just bizarre.
You are opposing me because I told you to encourage people to speak to their doctors instead of using the diatribes of common folk in order to make their decisions.
I did not tell you not to give your opinion, I did not tell you people shouldn’t do their research. I told you to stop forcing your opinion based on personal research and anecdotal evidence on other people INSTEAD of allowing them to hear both sides and make their own educated choices. Why you are finding it objectionable to encourage people to listen to their doctors instead of taking you at face value is very hard to understand if your real motive is health.“Phil, I don’t agree. When other peoole are involved, veavto lereacha comes into play and maybe your personal rights have to be put aside.“
Reb eliezer,
the anti-vaxxers hold the vaccine kills people and doesn’t save lives so they say you’re not doing ואהבת לרעך כמוך and they are
Syag, I am opposing you not because you are telling people to speak to doctors. I am opposing you because you are telling me that I’m killing people when I talk about my opinions on the covid-19 shot. You should actually take a minute or two to reread what I wrote because I said one thing in my paragraph you are paraphrasing while you are bashing me about something completely different that I did not write at all.
I said very clearly that people are ENTITLED to hear both sides. You are attacking me for saying the exact same thing you are NOW ( but not before) saying.
How exactly am I FORCING my opinion on others? Am I holding you or anyone else at gunpoint, forcing you to read my posts or not get vaccinated?
@philosopher said:
There are many professionals, doctors and professors who came out against the shots.
This is another piece of propaganda that unfortunately seems to be swallowed by many frum Jews. It’s simply not true. There are almost no actual practicing medical doctors nor professors or other medical professionals in fields related to vaccines and viruses that have come out against the three vaccines! Read any pro-death (you know, the type of individual who is OK with another half a million people dying from COVID because “co-morbidity” or “they were old”) blog you can find on non-Google search engines and any pro-death video not on YouTube. They will invariably trot out some guy or woman in a lab coat and introduce them as “Dr. Plony” or “Professor Almoni” who will then speak about how horrible the vaccine is and how COVID is no big deal and they were banned from yenner website for saying so. Try looking them up. Always, and I do mean always, they are called Dr. because they have a PhD in some unrelated field, or they are a professor of philosophy, or they work in holistic medicine, or they retired 25 years ago some small contribution to the vaccines which they exaggerate.
So unless a practicing medical Doctor that you know and has been seeing you or your family as a patient since before COVID tells you that they don’t believe in vaccines and they aren’t allowed to say so, I am not going to believe you.
“I am opposing you because you are telling me that I’m killing people when I talk about my opinions on the covid-19 shot”
Well then you’re wasting your time because i didn’t tell you that.
“Read any pro-death”
You do realize, i hope, that when someone gets to this line they realize you sound like a bona-fide nutcase and stop reading, right?
<i>This is another piece of propaganda that unfortunately seems to be swallowed by many frum Jews.</i> blah, blah, blah
I’m sorry to say this but you are clearly a guy who blindly fell for propaganda without any objective thought.
I’m not going to argue with you but I will say one point about most doctors. What choice do they have other than to support the vaccine? If they say anything otherwise they will be called pro death and tarred and feathered by people like you. My niece is a RN with plenty of hospital experience. She didn’t want the vaccine because she already had Corona. She was warned that if she refuses she will lose her job and she knew no other hospital will hire her so she took. Now she is being added to the statistics of “almost health care workers are vaccinated…”
Let me stress I’m PRO everyone getting the vaccine. I think it is people like you who give people valid grounds for suspicion about it
Syag, so what exactly are you arguing with me about? Exactly what are you trying to say?
@smerel It’s a simple statement: Are there thousands of real practicing medical doctors who secretly oppose the vaccine but are afraid to speak out or aren’t there? I don’t think there are considering every doctor I’ve personally spoke with has been passionate that people get vaccinate, some going above and beyond the call of duty to get involved in organizations and askanim to get the vaccine to the frum oilom. Furthermore, every time I’ve seen an article or video about a doctor who opposes the vaccine, it turns out they aren’t really a doctor.
@syag-lchochma We’ve tantzed at this chasuna already. If you oppose the vaccine and are actively promoting dangerous lies to convince people not to get it, you are either a shoteh or want people to die.That’s what i love about you, your myopia. I tell you that calling people pro death makes you sound like a fruitcake and you decide I’m anti vaccine and promoting dangerous lies. All with me saying multiple times that that is not the case. So you aren’t just a fruit cake, you also either don’t bother processing any voice but your own, or you have difficulty reading.
>> most doctors. What choice do they have other than to support the vaccine?
my doctor asked whether I am vaccinated and the, unexpectedly and embarrassing to me, said “thank you”, as if I did him a favor … He surely did not have to say that.
phil > In Israel it is currently at 53% while the unvaccinated positive cases are only at 43%
recent stats from Israel: rate of serious cases among older than 60 vaccinated is 7x lower than among remaining unvaccinated. From early data, seems like 3rd booster reduces this further.
coffee > The hygiene thing was about masks or about shots?
I am calling on all of us to behave like menchen in all aspects and treat others with respect and care, whether this requires masks, shots, or helping an elderly person cross the road.
There is an expression I do not hear often lately – Ehricher Yid. If we foolow that, many questions here will not need to be asked. I checked with Prof. Google – he has 3K of Ehricher Yids v. 7 mlns of ‘frum” …
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