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Syag, if you are speaking about me, I have no clue what you are talking about. I don’t know what you are talking about being “pro death”. I wonder if you even have any clue what you are talking about. Take a walk down memory lane and see that you first literally attacked me for daring to voice my opinion instead of “leaving it to doctors”. So perhaps you are not against vaccines even though doctors are generally afraid to voice independent opinion that veer from official government lines…It seems though that you don’t seem to even know what your own opinion is, you are dancing everywhere; you have no clue where you stand; after attaattacking me for voicing my opinion you claim that you are not against people voicing opinions…
And you must be amazingly brilliant, how did figure out I have myopia? 😃
“I tell you that calling people pro death makes you sound like a fruitcake”
1.you weren’t the one who called people pro death.
2. therefore I wasn’t talking to you
3.That may explain why the rest is so confusing for you
4. Yes, amazingly brilliant. How’d you guess.@syag-lchochma I direct the term “pro-death” to those who are single-mindedly opposed to any and all proactive measures that can counter COVID-19. At this point that means mainly vaccinations. In this thread, it was not meant for you but if you think that describes yourself, then so be it.
In no thread does it describe me. and in no thread should it describe any frum jew. Or does halacha take a back seat again to your hatred?
I was just doing you the huge favor of letting you know that sane people on both sides of the vaccine conversation will probably not take anything you say seriously when you call them out to lunch disgusting names for following their doctors. If that works for you…enjoy.
No Jew is “pro-death” in the sense of a conscious decision to push positions that they believe will increase death. No Jew.
The issue is what is the best the way to decrease death. I think that the best way to decrease death is to have every person–who does not already have natural immunity–get the vaccine.
I also think that my position is objectively correct. It is position supported by the best evidence. I think that anti-vaxxers are objectively wrong and their position will lead to more death. However, I am certain that they think my position will lead to more death. Anti-vaxxers aren’t pro-death, they are just wrong.
benignuman: Thank you for accepting my retort regarding your point about Polio.
” I think that the best way to decrease death is to have every person–who does not already have natural immunity–get the vaccine.”
Thank you for accepting my point about those who recovered from COVID-19 don’t need the vaccine. And that the Biden Administration pushing the vaccine for those who recovered from COVID-19 is a political, not medical, decision.
benignuman- thank you for proving that you can have strong feelings on (either side of) the issue and still present as an intelligent, literate mentsch
@ujm
I missed your comment about Polio. Polio was more dangerous but not nearly as dangerous as we typically think. A large majority of cases had no symptoms. And the vast majority of symptomatic cases were minor. But unlike today, there wasn’t mass testing for positive cases so people focused on the serious symptomatic cases.Regardless the risk of the Covid-19 vaccine is far lower than the risk of the disease.
I think the push for the vaccine universally is quasi-medical. They don’t have a good means of determining who had the disease in the past and they don’t want to encourage people to try and seek infection to get natural immunity.
benignuman: You’d agree that someone who recovered from COVID-19 would wisely choose not to get vaccinated?
UJM,
It would depend on the individual circumstances. For teenagers, I would generally agree.
Basically it is matter of calculating risk. Covid-19 for teenagers is extremely low risk. And these teenagers already have substantial immunity and we already know that they can beat it. On the other side there have been some reports of heart inflamation for teenagers from the vaccines. It is a question of risk guesstimates and math.
I question the idea that ant-vaxxers believe that more people will die from the vaccines than COVID if no one takes it. I’ve never heard an anti-vaxxer explicitly state that and they always shy away from direct questions like “Don’t you think that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the possible side effects?”
I think they are mostly just afraid and are letting their personal feelings get in the way of seichel and common sense. They don’t want to take the vaccine, so they justify it with mounds of contradictory and vague statements.
Benignuman: Would you agree that people in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s who recovered from COVID-19 would wisely choose to not vaccinate, based upon their natural immunity (that’s better than what vaccines provide)?
ujm, I don’t agree as they mostly did not recover from the delta variant and vaccine protects them but not necessarily their antibodies.
UJM,
I don’t know (but I suspect) that natural immunity is more robust than the vaccines in preventing future illness. However, it is also the case that someone who has had the disease before will increase the level (or chances) of their immunity by taking the vaccine. The question is whether the risk of taking the vaccine is greater than or lesser than the increased protection of the vaccine.
I don’t think that the data is clear on this issue. But I suspect that there is a substantial difference between people in their 20s and 50s on this. And a person’s health otherwise matters also.
Benignuman: If the data is unclear, how would you choose to proceed in making a decision whether the risk of taking the vaccine is greater than or lesser than the increased protection of the vaccine for someone who previously recovered from Covid, and whether to therefore vaccinate or not?
ujm,
see July article Ali Hamady, JinJu Lee, and Zuzanna A. Loboda “Waning antibody responses in COVID-19: what can we learn from the analysis of other coronaviruses” for a lot of details on antibody and T-cells.
They are saying that antibody response from disease is lower than vaccine, especially for new variants, as vaccines are designed to target multiple parts of the virus.
I would add my own understanding that disease protection varies depending on severity. Having a mild or asymptomatic case may or may not give antibodies (to be confirmed with the test) but may not guarantee longer T-cell response, so you may want to continue measuring antibody levels/
Disease + one vaccine are getting great results, with disease substituting for the first vaccine. This sounds like a reasonable middle way.
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