Why do ONLY seminary girls get to learn navi?

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  • #858988
    Queen Bee
    Member
    #858989
    RABBAIM
    Participant

    See Midrash Tanchuma in NOACH to see why Yeshivos focus on Gemara. The covenant of Torah of Har Sinai is to engage in learning Gemara, not Torah Shebiksav. While we must learn it and know it, if there is limited time we need to focus on what Chazal tell us to learn.

    #858993

    yeah….so we shouldnt FOCUS….but why shouldnt every yeshivah stop learning gemara for 45 minutes and learn navi???

    #858994
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Because if we were supposed to listen to Navi today, we would still have neviim.

    #858995
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    well put

    lol

    #858996
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    “????? ??????? ?????? ?????”

    #858997
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I don’t think he was being serious.

    The historically true answer to the OP’s question probably goes back to the Tosafos mentioned on the first page.

    #858998
    Toi
    Participant

    corey- because that hasnt been the curriculum in yeshivos since they started. R shach said that you end up learning nach from gemara. and anyway your just trying to stir the pot up again, so i dont think you really want an answer.

    #858999
    Nechomah
    Participant

    My husband tries to learn the haftarah the same way as the parsha, pama’im mikra, pa’am targum.

    #859000
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “R shach said that you end up learning nach from gemara.”

    That might be true if you learn the gemara like Rav Shach. When the gemara brings a passuk for any reason, how many learners today actually know what the passuk is talking about and its relevance to the gemara? How many bother to look up the passuk, its context within the perek, have an understanding of the passuk means and then try and fit it back into the gemara? When a Tanna or Amora (or even a Rishon or Achron) brings a passuk it is because they know what the passuk means already. Its application to the gemara is understood by them. Todays learners?

    #859001
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That might be true if you learn the gemara like Rav Shach. When the gemara brings a passuk for any reason, how many learners today actually know what the passuk is talking about and its relevance to the gemara? How many bother to look up the passuk, its context within the perek, have an understanding of the passuk means and then try and fit it back into the gemara? When a Tanna or Amora (or even a Rishon or Achron) brings a passuk it is because they know what the passuk means already. Its application to the gemara is understood by them. Todays learners?

    Well, R’ Shach was talking to todays learners.

    In any event, you grossly underestimate today’s learners. People on the outside like to sit and make fun of yeshiva guys, and say they don’t really learn and just waste time.

    They should find a better way to assuage their guilt for not being in yeshiva. Like therapy.

    We have experts on this board who I’m sure can help set some goals for people with guilt for not being in yeshiva. I bet Aries can help.

    (And I challenge you to ask me on any passuk mentioned in any of the yeshivish mesechtos.)

    #859002
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    In any event, you grossly underestimate today’s learners. People on the outside like to sit and make fun of yeshiva guys, and say they don’t really learn and just waste time.

    They should find a better way to assuage their guilt for not being in yeshiva. Like therapy.

    +1

    #859003
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    For the CR suggestion box: There should be a “like” button under each post.

    #859004
    apushatayid
    Participant

    PBA, your sarcasm is duly noted.

    #859005
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Are saying that your knowledge of Tanach is limited to the pesukim brought down in the Yeshivishe messechtos? That makes you an expert in what, 5% of tanach? 10%? If you would learn the entire shas, you would be an expert in 30%, 40%?

    #859006
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I am not saying that at all. If you look above, I professed a far vaster knowledge in tanach, more than the entire BJJ combined, and half of Hadar.

    Also, the yeshivish mesechtos are far more than 10% of shas.

    In pages, they are over a third.

    In concepts, they are probably over 90%.

    #859008

    I asked my rosh yeshivah this question and he said ” taka its a good question”….but he cant pin point the real reason to why not?

    #859010
    zeena.kasta
    Member

    Gut Voch! Well it is still shabbos in the states, but not in Australia. My daughter won the national chidon hatanach, and she knows more torah, navi and ketuvim than my sons. but is that so terrible??? My sons are the experts when it comes to gemara, explaining the world. while my daughter is packed with the knowledge. men cant be the master of all.

    #859011
    luv2hack
    Member

    I learned Navi from 4th Grade all the way through high school so I’m not sure where you’re getting this “just in seminary” thing from.

    #859012
    squeak
    Participant

    she knows more torah, navi and ketuvim than my sons. but is that so terrible???

    Yes, it’s both terrible and pathetic. Your sons should be ashamed.

    men cant be the master of all.

    I guess you’ve never met any real men.

    #859013
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Her sons should not be ashamed. There were amoraim who weren’t experts in Tanach either.

    #859014
    zeena.kasta
    Member

    they should be, but they cant possibly be expected to take on s much as she has. she would learn in to the early hours of the morning with no break. it takes lots of kochos. no one should ever put themselves under that much strain.

    #859015
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “men cant be the master of all”

    What do you think the girls are learning, studying and memorizing? Page after page of meforshei tanach, all men.

    #859016
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “There were amoraim who weren’t experts in Tanach either.”

    What they didn’t know would put todays girls to shame 🙂

    #859017
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Also, the yeshivish mesechtos are far more than 10% of shas.In pages, they are over a third.In concepts, they are probably over 90%”

    Pesukei Tanach?

    #859018
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Well, R’ Shach was talking to todays learners”

    How many of todays learners, learn like R’ Shach?

    #859021
    zeena.kasta
    Member

    Todays society will never measure up to the gedolim that made those meforshim, but some girls know more tanach than men…so what?? men know enough to function and they learn gemora, so that have greater depth in specified areas. woman just have the general knowledge

    #859022
    squeak
    Participant

    Some women have a superior knowledge of tanach, and that is nothing new. In general though, it is the unusual woman who knows more tanach that a proper ben torah, and a man should not be making cop out excuses about his own ignorance.

    #859023
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Exactly, so what.

    #859024
    sam4321
    Participant

    Yitay: “There were amoraim who weren’t experts in Tanach either.”

    Do you have a source for this ?

    #859025
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    sam4321 –

    I’m preparing an essay on the issue; for now here’s this:

    A.Z. 4a

    ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???. ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????. ???? ?? ???????, ???? ???: ????, ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????????. ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ??? ????. ??? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ???. ??? ??? ???? ????????, ??? ???: ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???: ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????! ??? ???: ???? ????? ??? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???: ??? ??? ???? ????????? ??? ???: ??? ????????? ??????, ????? ?????? ???????. ????? ?? ??????

    B.K. 55a

    ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???: ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ???, ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??: ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???, ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???, ????? ????! ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????

    The implications of this second source are astounding.

    #859026
    sam4321
    Participant

    The gemara in bk 55 are explained by the achronim,but surely the amoraim knew tanach very well . The first gemara in AZ 4 , Rav Safra of course knew the passuk but the deeper meaning he did no know as well as his contemporaries. It is very different than not knowing at all, which I thought you meant.

    #859027
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    sam4321 – It’s not a deeper meaning they wanted, but pashut peshat. There’s more too, I’ll get back to you.

    #859028
    more
    Member

    zeena.kasta

    Member

    “Gut Voch! Well it is still shabbos in the states, but not in Australia. My daughter won the national chidon hatanach, and she knows more torah, navi and ketuvim than my sons. but is that so terrible??? My sons are the experts when it comes to gemara, explaining the world. while my daughter is packed with the knowledge. men cant be the master of all. “

    Mrs R. Mazel Tov! shep nachas from your daughter.. She’s wonderful and will go very far in life… May you only continue to see nachas from all your children. btw;- don’t write anything too personal now that you’ve mentioned this..

    #859029
    real-brisker
    Member

    more – Welcome Back Troll-Half-Aussie-Ice Cream:::Pie…..

    #859031
    more
    Member

    real-brisker, half was not Ice cream, nor pie for that matter…

    all I can say is there is ONE moderator here that thinks e/o else is doing what he’s doing- talking to himself! And the more you chase away ‘trolls’, ‘dolts’, ‘retards’,and whatever else you wanna call REAl&fake posters the more you will inevitably talk to yourself!

    you have a choice be welcoming and accomodating to us all or the inevitable…:) btw: I noticed moi aussie and a NUMBER of others haven’t posted in a while either…:( was he blocked??

    #859032
    besalel
    Participant

    Why? I think we can more comfortably deal with an ox that fell into a pit than this…

    ???????????, ???-?????????????, ???????? ???-????? ??????????, ?????? ??????? ???????? ?????????. ?????????????, ??? ??????????????, ?????? ???????-????????? ?????????, ????????? ??????? ?????????

    Yechezkel 23:19-20

    Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were in size like those of donkeys and whose seminal emission was like that of horses.

    #859033
    musser zoger
    Participant

    One cannot learn Tanach properly witout learning it w/ meforshim that are based on Torah shebaal peh. Many pesukim translated by non-yirei shamayaim will result in garbage in-garbage out.

    #859034
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    First of all, I know that pasuk from the yeshivishe masechtos. Rabbeinu Tam cites it famously in Kesubos. Second, there’s plenty of that kind of stuff in the yeshivishe masechtos.

    #859036
    besalel
    Participant

    mussarzoger, no one disagrees. simply put, learning nach requires a certain level of maturity which yeshiva boys lack.

    #859037

    Iv’e recently started paying more attention and has helped alot! i still think guys in yeshivah are lacking alot of knowledge in navi….but its a start….

    #859038
    147
    Participant

    Fortunately for myself, I am on a Nach Yomi program, where we learn 5 Pesukim (verses) each day, hence on track to covering Nach in 9&1/2 years.

    #859039
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No one is stopping anyone from learning Navi.

    I have yet to hear of a bachur being disciplined by his yeshiva for having a Sefer Yeshaya.

    The Wolf

    #859040

    You havent heard of someone disciplined …..but yet if someone misses geamarah seder they are??? WHY???????

    #859041
    more_2
    Member

    Wolfish- ++ LOL!!!

    #859042
    longarekel
    Member

    The closest thing we have to neviim nowadays are their written word. They are talking to each one of us. There is no question that if one learns nach seriously and in depth, his closeness to Hashem will be greatly enhanced. Instead of mussar seder, go and hear the words of the neviim. They will definitely change your life. But perhaps that’s what some people are afraid of…

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