August 26, 2011 6:25 am at 6:25 am #803636MDGParticipant
Speaking of a “large Black Hat with the wide brim”, there might be a problem with such wide brims on Shabbat. IIRC Rav Ovadia paskens that one should not wear a hat with a brim wider than a tefach – bohen ohel. There is also a source for it in the MB.August 26, 2011 9:21 am at 9:21 am #803637ToiParticipant
my brim is small. so hah. i dont like cowboy hats. and-josh- when the hamoin am was separated by their general look fom the goyim maybe they didnt need the black hat.(as an aside they all wore some sort of hat/cap.) nowadays many jews are trying to dress like the goyim. this is as new a phenomeneon as black hats- so maybe its counterbalances.August 26, 2011 9:45 am at 9:45 am #803638
Here is what I think about hats:
I used to think it was silly, and that I just wore it because that was the convention of how “we” dress, and I wanted to associate myself with the people who dress that way.
But, I think it really does make sense now.
Ask yourself: In almost every society until recently, some type of hat has been accepted as a part of normal dress. Mexicans wore big straw ones, polish wore fur ones, arabs wore keffiahs, chinese wore chinese ones, etc.
Hats have always been part of the way one dresses, part of being dressed.
Why? I don’t know. But there is clearly some reason that a mensch covers his head.
So, I don’t understand it, but I’m ready to accept that a reason exists.August 26, 2011 11:51 am at 11:51 am #803639old manParticipant
MDG, it is a befeirush mechaber,OH: 301; 40. The Rama does not argue. The ashkenazic poskim grapple with it, but the mechaber is black on white and staring right at us.August 26, 2011 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #803640HachamMember
What do you mean grapple with it? If they allow it, that’s the psak.August 26, 2011 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #803641Sam2Participant
Shlishi: I don’t know if that community is a larger problem. They are equally problematic. Dismissing any Torah Jew as being not so because of what they do or don’t wear is the issue.August 26, 2011 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #803642600 Kilo BearMember
its out of style now and nobody wears them so why are we continuing to wear them…
Because we are SUPPOSED to stand out! In 20 – 25 years man to woman marriage will be out of style, and we will still be doing it. Kashrus is unfortunately out of style for 80 plus percent of Jews – we are still doing it. Shabbos – make it 90% etc etc etc. The hat is a symbol now, wherever it came from in the past, it makes a statement that our tafkid is to do a lot of things that stand out and are not in style.August 26, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #803643ItcheSrulikMember
As a matter of fact, fedoras are finally coming back in style in America. Now wearing a black hat will actually look respectable instead of just strange (speaking solely in terms of the outside world).August 30, 2011 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #803644CheinMember
*) Dressing in black (including the hat) – Shach YD 178:3
*) Wearing a hat (even not during davening or making a Bracha) – Maharsha Shabbos 156bAugust 30, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #803645twistedParticipant
“The hat is the most distinguishable features of the Jew, and it will always be”
I would change that a little bit. Like, the radiance of character and middos is the most distinguishable feature of the Jew, and it will always be.August 30, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #803646twistedParticipant
Chen, the Shach you quote is sourced elsewhere, for one whose yetzer is overcomming him, he should dress in black, and cover his head in black(atifah not necessarily a hat) and self impose galus. This is the derech/ self help for someone who is losing it, ( maan detakfei yitzrei) and the Rambam’s concept of going to an extreme, in order to distance from the aveirah,(flashy clothes, gaavah, aping the idolaters) so as to come back to a middle path, it was not the norm for chazal, nor was it so in the Shach’s time. The hakpoda was not to wear red. But you can play games with pulling non-congruent ideas out of SA and the nosei kelim. I can prove to you we should wear whites and colors on shabbos, with the same level of hechrech: OC 559:8 SA and Rama.August 30, 2011 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #803648Sam2Participant
I am reminded by the line from the Marvelous Middos Machine (The Ahavas Yisroel Song), “Look, there’s the boy with funny-looking knitted Yarmulke. And he’s carrying a Gemara. What would he need a Gemara for?”August 30, 2011 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #803649shlishiMember
If you were a uniformed officer in the military and you ran into another uniformed officer, you could immediately start conversing with him about military and geopolitical matters. OTOH, if another person in street clothes walked up to you and started talking to you about military matters, you would rightfully respond to him as if he was unsophisticated in military matters. If you realized in mid-conversation he was an officer too, you would change the perspective and nature of your conversation.
Much the same as you described your experience above.August 30, 2011 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #803651
there are a tremendous number of people who wear Kippot Serugot who are also Talmidei Chachamim.
And there are plenty of civilians who know alot about the military. We can keep the moshol if we want.August 30, 2011 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #803653
The fact that these people in said uniform assume that they have more Torah knowledge than a “pedestrian” out of uniform is, not only arrogant, but wrong.
Oh come on. The facts are true and based on very clear statistics.
There are more people learning for longer who dress like that. If we make the simple assumption that learning more is a good indicator of knowing more, we can easily say that a stranger has a better chance of being a talmid chochom if he is dressed like that.
That doesn’t mean it makes you a talmid chochom or is necessary to be one. It is just a siman.
Much like a fellow in a tweed jacket walking in Harvard Yard is more likely to be a professor than a guy in a suit in Manhattan. Wearing a tweed jacket doesn’t make you a professor, and wearing a suit doesn’t make you not one. It isn’t even a uniform. But if you’re looking for a professor, take my advice.August 30, 2011 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #803654AbellehParticipant
PBA: Your right. Well said.August 30, 2011 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #803655
Thanks.August 31, 2011 1:37 am at 1:37 am #803658CheinMember
You missed popa’s point apy.August 31, 2011 2:25 am at 2:25 am #803661
I think along with wearing a black hat comes a bit of arrogance.
No, you are the one with a complex. My black hat came with no arrogance. It was simply something I started wearing just like everyone in my family and shul.August 31, 2011 2:31 am at 2:31 am #803662shlishiMember
You are correct it comes up often. Yet in almost every instance it is brought up by folks who begrudge those who do wear a black hat. Just look at this very thread for example. The OP was not content or comfortable that he himself doesn’t wear a black hat; so he had to question and be dismissive of why should others wear them!
So, yes, you are correct about it being unbecoming. Though that attitude and discomfort is coming from the headgear-less.August 31, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #803663AbellehParticipant
As the OP myself, I daresay that I am qualified to judge his contentment on the matter. I am content and comfortable that I do not wear a black hat. (If I weren’t, I would simply get one) Though I did see a picture of the Rav wearing a really cool tan hat, which I’m very interested in getting now. The point of this thread was to see why people who do wear hats wear hats. I don’t see a need to, so I was wondering what some people thought the need (if there is even any) to wear a black hat would be.
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