August 23, 2011 12:04 am at 12:04 am #803578AbellehParticipant
Any other reasons why one would still wear a hat?August 23, 2011 12:18 am at 12:18 am #803579shlishiMember
How many more reasons do you need?
Here’s another one if you need it: Considering all the Rabbonim, Gedolim, Roshei Yeshivos, and ehrlicher yidden that wear it, it’s obviously a very good idea.August 23, 2011 3:38 am at 3:38 am #803580
all the time before the world war jews was cloth with diffrent kind of hats from the goyimAugust 23, 2011 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #803581agittayidParticipant
Police, the army, etc. have different uniforms depending on their needs at the time.
As long as many feel that a “uniform” (especially the hat) is a necessity for a frum Jew, why not a summer “uniform” for really hot days? Perhaps a straw hat for starters.August 23, 2011 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #803582600 Kilo BearMember
I think it is Borsalino that makes a straw hat which looks almost exactly like the regular yeshivish hats but is much more comfortable and weather resistant. My friend has one – he probably bought it in EY but I am sure that the usual stores in NY have it as well. He’s had it for over a year and it hardly shows any wear. I’d get one myself but I wear a “kasket” during the week as was the minhag here in Ukraine and I live so close to shul now that wearing my regular hat on Shabbos hardly bothers me.August 23, 2011 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #803583
agitteyid. great pointAugust 23, 2011 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #803584optimusprimeMember
Why not light colored suits too?August 23, 2011 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #803585
i just raed that r’avigdor miller said that black hats is the jewish uniform from ovdi hashemAugust 23, 2011 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #803586agittayidParticipant
“Why not light colored suits too?”
Great idea. Light colored and a lighter material.August 24, 2011 12:03 am at 12:03 am #803587
YIC: When did he say that though? He clearly didn’t mean for that to apply forever or that that’s always been the uniform of Ovdei Hashem (yes, I did once meet someone who argued vociferously that Moshe Rabbeinu wore a hat and jacket on Har Sinai). How do you know that he would still say that today?August 24, 2011 12:31 am at 12:31 am #803588optimusprimeMember
If this can be pulled off, I would feel just like my grandfather forty years ago! But would a feather in the hat be permissible?August 24, 2011 1:52 am at 1:52 am #803589
Sam: He didn’t say it was always the uniform; he said it is the current uniform. And why should he say differently today? If there has been any change in the last 10 years since he was niftar, it is that more and more of Klal Yisroel have begun donning a black hat.August 24, 2011 3:12 am at 3:12 am #803590
Once again Hacham, how do you know how long ago he said it? He may have said it as many as 40 years ago.
I also take great exception to your statement that more and more of K’lal Yisroel are donning a black hat. If it’s true, I would think that it only is true because the Chareidi community in Eretz Yisroel (not even as much in America) has such a high birth rate. I think it’s more accurate to say that people who don’t wear hats aren’t counted as part of the frum section of K’lal Yisroel by many people anymore. (I’m not accusing you or anyone in particular of this; I just feel that it’s a mindset that has grown tremendously over the past 10 years even.)August 24, 2011 3:23 am at 3:23 am #803591Josh31Participant
Can we all agree that there are communities of Ovdei Hashem that do wear the black hat, and that there are communities of Ovdei Hashem that do not wear the black hat?August 24, 2011 3:33 am at 3:33 am #803592
sam2. he says how do you know that Avrohem went with a hat cause the Torah says viylech Avrohem so if he went some where for sure he went with a hat but beside this he didn’t pass away to long ago so why should i say he only said till he passed away he talked about befor the ww2 no one went out from home with out a hat so from his words it look like ha said it ldoresAugust 24, 2011 4:07 am at 4:07 am #803593
Sam: You have no reason to think he would have changed his mind. He made a statement, vzeh hu. If you start projecting, you can discount everything any godol said by saying “well if he were around today he would have changed his mind and agreed with me.”August 24, 2011 4:26 am at 4:26 am #803594Abba bar AristotleParticipant
My Rebbe showed me a photo of the Alter from Slabodka walking in the street with some of his best talmidim and they were wearing light grey hats.August 24, 2011 4:41 am at 4:41 am #803595ObaminatorMember
So they were all wearing hats — even when walking in the street! That should be mussar haskel for all of us.August 24, 2011 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #803596
the hat represnts. thats it.you identify with an ideal, an image. of course, there are people that have those ideals and dont wear a hat. but if you want to show someone what your service of hashem entails, a hat says it. thats the practical application.August 24, 2011 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #803597
Hacham, now you see my point. He made a statement, which clearly was not meant to last forever (I believe the quote here had the word “current”). So how do we know what he would say today? We don’t. I’m not saying he would say otherwise today, but I am saying that a statement made up to 40 years about what clothing we should wear (which has changed pretty often throughout history) is not necessarily a proof as to what we should wear today. Will R’ Miller’s statement means Jews should wear hats and jackets 100 years from now? 200? It obviously was not meant to be a P’sak L’doros, so how do we know when society has changed enough for that to change? The answer is we don’t. I’m not saying he would agree with me today; I’m just saying that his words do not necessarily prove anything.
Toi: That is one of the major things that is currently wrong in the Jewish world. We let one article of clothing identify who we are. Don’t you think that’s sad? When I see people, wearing their Tzitzis out (see the very strong Magen Avraham on that) not counted for a Minyan while people with a hat on but their Tzitzis tucked in are, I see a serious problem.August 24, 2011 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #803598
sam2.he is saying its a uniform so a uniform only a general could change so as long the gdoli ysroel didn’t change yet this is still the uniform and i wane connect it together with my point of yesterday about in Egypt that they didn’t change their clothes take a look on the sfardishe gdolim ovadye yosef i will not say cause he is not going with a hat he is not a oved hashem only the point about egypt is thet they did not change not about hat or like all other kinds of things its only about changing if you change its not good this was all the times where jews keep their self jewish even before the war is that they didn’d changeAugust 24, 2011 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #803599
yic: Chacham Ovadia Yosef alternatively either wears a black hat or a turban.August 24, 2011 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #803600
Sam: Torah Jews have always been identifiable by their clothing.August 24, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #803601
BTW, tzitzis in or out is a machlokes. The Arizal would wear his tallis kattan, tzitzis and all, under his other garments. Rav Chaim Vital explained that this was because the tallis kattan and the tallis gadol relate to two kinds of reality: the internal reality (pnimius) and the external reality (chitzunius). The tallis kattan represents the internal level and is therefore worn within other garments, while the tallis gadol represents the external and is therefore worn over the other garments. (Pri Etz Chaim, Shaar Tzitzis I.)August 24, 2011 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #803603
hacham. i know i said ovadye i m not blaming cause this is his jewish uniform so the turban to him is the same like a hat to meAugust 24, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #803604akupermaParticipant
Styles constantly change. Right now black fedoras are “in”. Maybe in 100 years berets will be in (they are much more practical when davening), or Homburgs (better in the rain).
Fashion isn’t a matter of halacha. It’s a matter of anthopology.
If hats become “in” among the goyim, again, we’ll feel less self-conscious about wearing hats.August 24, 2011 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #803605
Correct. A Torah Jew who wears a Kippah and Tzitzis is easily identifiable to the public. Unfortunately, people “only” wearing a Kippah and Tzitzis are not considered Torah Jews by many other Torah Jews.August 24, 2011 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #803606Yoin from BPMember
Why do (chareidim, Yeshiva-leit, Chassidim etc) wear Black Hats?
Why do doctors wear their stethoscopes around their necks?
Why do soldiers wear their Army uniforms?
Why do business types wear ties?
Why do ‘Bnei Akiva’ types wear knotted yarmulkas?
Why do ‘Heimishe’ Rabbis have beards?
and the list can go on and on..
Because, Black hats is OUR uniform.
But it also reflects on us and our obligations. ‘Nobelesse oblige’. Nobility obligates. When we make a ‘Kiddush HaShem’ it’s nice. But when we make a ‘Chillul HaShem’, it is many times more serious because of our ‘uniform’.August 24, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #803607
sam2-your arguements are singularly not compelling. A hat is an association with a certain segment of the population,granted. tzitzis, unfortunately, have become part of a look, aside from the mitza observance that lies in wearing them. hollywood stars have been spotted in tzitzis. na nachs who do nothing but giggle and dance all day wear tzitzis. i agree it should not be so. take their tzitzis away and i wont need a hat. tzitzis (especially low-hanging ones with tcheiles) have become part of a grunge hippy look. so yes, these associations do exist, and tzitzis, in this day and age, do not tell the truth about a person.August 24, 2011 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #803608
its one word we are not changing from our fathers what ever the style will be when we will change uniform is only when apekorsem will use this for a symbol then could be that it will be some gdolim who will that say we should change lmoshel berchas kohanim for 250 years ago the gdolim from then said we should not say cause shabsi tsvi ym”sh and like mogen duvid the satmer rabbi said that his pepole should not use is for a jewish symbol cause the isrealis toke it for a symbol so his pepole should not use it as a jewish symbol evry guy have to do what his rabbi or mashgiach or ruv is saying but till then nobody have the right to change anythingAugust 24, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #803609
Toi: And my argument is that who cares what those people do? Everyone who sees me will know I am Jewish by my Kippah and Tzitzis. I am supposed to suddenly add something else because some nutcases want to wear Tzitzis? Clothing should identify us as Jewish, not create artificial stratifications within Judaism. I know an elderly man who recently became a Ba’al Teshuvah. He has a long white beard. He was once visiting a Shtiebl in Israel, and they saw him, called him “Rabbi”, gave him an Aliyah, and asked him to give a D’var Torah. He doesn’t even speak Hebrew. It’s ridiculous that people take one look at you and decide what kind of person and Jew you are based on it. I follow Halachah, so I wear a Kippah and Tzitzis. Judging me by more than that from how I look is just wrong.August 24, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #803610anon1m0usParticipant
Sam2 Well said!!
Toi: African Americans wear black hats too, so according to your arguments a nice jewish boy should not wear it anymore.August 25, 2011 1:07 am at 1:07 am #803612Josh31Participant
“and tzitzis, in this day and age, do not tell the truth about a person.”
No article of clothing has that capability.
When people think an article of clothing does, then it becomes the favorite of crooks.August 25, 2011 2:36 am at 2:36 am #803613bein_hasdorimParticipant
When it comes back into style, we want to be the FIRST to be wearing them, then US yeshivah guys will tell anyone who wants to hear it,
That WE were the ones who made it comeback.
who do you think brought thin ties into style?
Yankel Friedman thats who!
His favorite tie got a snag, went to the tailor, tailor told him can’t fix but can make it thinner, how much he asked?
$5 dollars replied the tailor. $5 dollars asked Yankle?
I’ll take two.
btw some of these hats smaller brim grey etc.. are in style.August 25, 2011 9:04 am at 9:04 am #803614
anonymo7654e34s. they look difeferent. duh. moot point.Sam- i agree that tzitzis will show that your jewish. e ven if madonnas wearing them. but- someone who wants to show what he believes in ie hashkafos, ideals, and his high regard for a certain way of life makes that statement by wearing as hat. he could also put a sign around his neck. maybe everyone else would too. or maybe they wouldnt. i dont understand why you take issue with someone wearing their heart on their sleeve. and in response to saying that tzitzis shows this too, i would argue that the giggly breslov guy in tzfas- i met him there yesterday- doesnt have the same regard for a blatt gemara as does the roshei yeshiva whose footsteps i want to follow in. thats why i wear a hat. are you opposed to a tzioni wearing an israeli flag on his backpack? if he means to identify with what he believes is a jewish ideal then his tzitzis should be enough and his actions should bother you. please respond- iom interested in what you think- sam2.August 25, 2011 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #803615
Toi: I guess I kind of see your point, but I wish it weren’t true. And I don’t think it should be true. I don’t think we should have different articles of clothes that state: “I’m a different type of Torah Jew than that Torah Jew”. There are Torah Jews who hold different things. That’s fine. But why do we have to advertise that I’m going to wear a certain article of clothing which says that not only am I a Torah Jew, but I am a Torah Jew who thinks that not wearing this article of clothing isn’t as much of a Torah Jew as I am? If you want to be like a Rosh Yeshivah instead of the Breslov guy, go learn Gemara instead of doing what he does all day (which probably involves a lot of learning also). I don’t see why you have to dress differently than him. And I certainly think it’s wrong that people feel like they’re better than him because they dress differently.August 25, 2011 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #803616
Sam: The best way to accomplish the goal you seek (which is a very worthwhile one), is that every Torah Jew wears a black hat.August 25, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #803617YW Moderator-80Member
there are a variety of reasons to dress in the manner of the group to which you belong . no one said it means “im better than you”
interestingly, when Rabbi dr dovid gottlieb became o Chosid of the Bostoner Rebbe, the Rebbe told him he must wait 8 years before wearing the Chassidic garb. i dont know his reason for sure but i believe from what i heard 3rd hand is that it was to be certain that Rabbi Gottlieb was not joining because of a love of the externalities of the life of a Chosid.August 25, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #803618MDGParticipant
What I find funny is that the yeshivish hat is a fedora, which used to be a women’s style. Therefore, what’s yeshivish today was an Issur D’Oryta 100 years ago.
From wikipedia on fedora:
“The fedora became a female fashion which lasted into the early part of the 20th century. “August 25, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #803619YW Moderator-80Member
you forgot to quote from wikipwedia immediately following tha statement: “citation needed”August 25, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #803620
M80, I’m sure no one says that. But what happens when you ask the average black-hatter (just for example) if they think they are better or more frum than someone who doesn’t. I guarantee that you will get a shockingly high percentage say that they are, or even that those who don’t wear black hats aren’t “frum”. I know that my family has had people (more than one) not trust our Kashrus before because my father doesn’t wear a hat.August 25, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #803621MDGParticipant
Encarta Dictionary, Microsoft Encarta Premium Suite 2004.August 25, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #803622
i dont think a black hatter considers himself more frum. i think he has confidence in his approach to avodas hashem because many, many gedolim of previous times and the present endorse or otherwise agree with the way of life he has chosen. im not saying that confidence manifests itself in the most agreeable way, but is still think thats what it is,, not a sense of being holier then thou.August 25, 2011 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #803625apushatayidParticipant
“I know that my family has had people (more than one) not trust our Kashrus before because my father doesn’t wear a hat.”
I wasnt accepted into a mesivta because my father was wearing a straw hat (this was in 1983). (this was confirmed when we asked an uncle of mine who had three sons in the yeshiva to ask….he asked why his neighbors son wasnt accepted into the yeshiva and they told him that they were able to tell by the fathers hat that we werent their kind of people – they officially told us that they didnt have enough beds in the dorm!).
As for the hat, some regiments in the army of hashem include a black felt fedora as part of their uniform, while others do not. Within these regiments, the styles vary by unit. Some units have pinches in their hat, some dont, others choose the wide brimmed style, while others the small, some go brim down and some brim up, some perched way back on their head and others pulled down over their eyes in the front.August 25, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #803626
sam2- please. an apikores? retarded.im an intensely right winger in terms of hashkafa and i dont think that. i often play devils advocate at the risk of getting modded. so believe me thats not true.August 25, 2011 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #803627
Toi: It’s more so in certain communities in Eretz Yisroel, but I guarantee you that not wearing a hat automatically labels someone as a Tziyoni and therefore an Apikores in some places.August 25, 2011 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #803628bein_hasdorimParticipant
Borsalino, says your a true solider, as far any other name means you’re not a serious Oiveid.
How can you penny pinch when it come to the holy service of the Master of the Universe???!!
There is a Kabolah, Ish Mpi Ish, that when it says “Thou Shalt Wear a Black Hat, it means Borsalino!
Look up the Rishonim, if you cant find it there, look in the Acharonim. You’re bound to find a Tsuvah about black hats.
Especially the ones the Roshei Yeshivah wear, that points to Shamayim, as opposed to the ones the regular people wear that points the the ground, to remind us that we are not a Gadol yet.August 25, 2011 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #803629shlishiMember
Sam2: The larger problem is the significant part of the non-black hat community that labels the black hatters as religious fanatics and refuses to acknowledge them.August 25, 2011 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #803630YaelaMember
To Mark Levin: How dare you compare non-Jews to animals. It’s because of that arrogant, self righteous attitude that a lot of people don’t like Jews. Nobody’s perfect and the frum world has a lot to work on. Better focus on improving your insides than judging other people’s outsides.August 26, 2011 3:58 am at 3:58 am #803633
One, two, three, four, and more generations ago the hamon hoam all wore hats. Going hatless or headgear-less is a newfangled idea picked up from the outside.
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