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After another weekend of attempts, I ask again, why do some hard to please boys have to go out with a hundred girls? Is this a nisayon they have from Hashem or a personality issue, or is their hard to please personality a Nisayon from Hashem?
When they finally do commit, statistically, are they happier than the guys who committed within the first ten dates?
Is this a nisayon they have from Hashem or a personality issue, or is their hard to please personality a Nisayon from Hashem?
Probably some combination of personality and bechirah.
When they finally do commit, statistically, are they happier than the guys who committed within the first ten dates?
I guess you don’t really think a controlled study was ever done, and you want opinions.
Mine: No, efsher farkert.
Aren’t there plenty of girls who do the same?
“go out with a hundred girls”
I know you’re trying to make a point (and it is well taken) but to pre-empt the critics, please try to be more realistic with your numbers.
Your assessment of the guys as “hard to please” makes you sound like a little kid, who thinks that marriage is about adding up qualities.
Black hair- check
size 4- check
money- check
sense of humor- 80%
etc.
I don’t know how to explain marriage to you, but I’ll just say that I can understand very well why you are having a hard time setting people up now.
Medium shadchan
Maybe the shadchanim should redt the girl that the guys end up getting engaged to first before we have to date lots of girls needlessly?
Back when I was dating I went out with so many guys until I met my husband on the other hand my husband went out with only a handful of girls before.
So it works both ways and besides no one guy or girl wants to be told that they’re picky so continue working with the so called picky guys they’re bound to go for a girl if them up with someone on target. For ex. if he’s 6 ft and he wants someone over 5 ft 3 and u set him up with someone who’s 4 ft 11 then he might say no.
Take their preferences into consideration to be more on target.
If a guy is learning and you set him up with someone who won’t/can’t support you’ll also get a no.
There are so many common sense examples think out of the shadchan mindset of oh! I have a guy let me suggest every girl (his age) on my list to him –try to feel him out and speak to him not the mother he goes on the date (his mother might agree but he might not)
I am having a hard time understanding your exasperation. We are talking about a man choosing the woman with whom he will spend the rest of his life and be his partner in all that he does. If a guy wants to be particular in this decision, I think that it is understandable even if it causes some shadchanium a a bit of frustration. Do you really expect someone to say “I don’t really think that she is for me, but this is the third girl that Mrs. Ploinis has redt to me so I guess I will marry her”?
I’ve recently got involved in shidduchim but I only work with people I know and they trust that I won’t send them an off target idea. It might not be for them but it’s in the ball park I see the need many more people should get out there and try to network and set up people they know.
So you don’t rely totally on the shadchanim who already are bombarded with calls/emails.
So your average couple can think off ideas and start working on dates for people they know personally. Believe me both the guy and girl will say yes to you more than a shadchan who really is matching up 2 papers.
Furthermore, regarding your question:
“When they finally do commit, statistically, are they happier than the guys who committed within the first ten dates?”
This is a completely irrelevant question. The answer may be yes and it may be no. But the guys who date 100 girls are NOT the guys who dated 10. The question that should be asked is, “Are theses guys happier than they would have been had THEY committed within the first ten dates?” And without a Navi, no one will ever have an answer.
I’m just curious about the guys (and girls) who go out for many years, and eventually marry someone they went out with ten years earlier – do they also blame the shadchanim for their years of singlehood?
bpt
i know a boy who went out with 44 diferent girls
i personally think thats just wrong
how could u judge someone in terms of how picky/or not picky they should be?
If you aren’t picky fine but they might care more about somethings and it’s really their life
btw 44 is not tons. if they go out often enough
I am really confused. Is this how many dates they go on with the girl before committing or the amount of girls they go out with before finding their bashert? Those are two totally different questions.
My parents dated 10 and 12 years respectively before meeting each other. They found each other in the end, and that’s what’s important.
If you’re discussing pickiness, then you’re bringing up a topic that has already been wrung dry.
Just a story of what picky means: a 45 year old guy asking that he date nobody BELOW age 30. This is a real person. My mom hung up on him. (She’s a part-time shadchan.)
Oh, yes, and family friends of ours married each other after 20 and 27 years respectively, and are now the parents of two adorable kids.
What if they had given up?
And btw I’m a teenager who’s the oldest in her family. All of my info comes from other relatives and my mom the shadchan, so if you choose to discount it go ahead. However, I usually don’t post about something unless I think it’s worth noting.
“i know a boy who went out with 44 diferent girls
i personally think thats just wrong”
Would you care to explain what is wrong about it? At what number must someone marry the next girl he dates before he is “over the limit”?
I have to post again, because I still can’t get over how incredibly shallow your question is.
I’ll grant that there are young men and women who do go out with young women and men, and are perfectly able to marry each other, but don’t anyway.
You think they are being picky. That is an absurd conclusion.
Often, they are unable to get married for psychological and emotional reasons. Maybe they have a hard time forming intimate relationships. Maybe they are scared of commitment. Maybe a million emotional or psychological things.
Why would you fault them for that?
Why would you call them “picky”?
Why would you bizarrely decide it is more of a problem for men than for women?
Suppose they really are just being picky. What does that mean? If you are correct and someone is unable to marry a girl unless she meets some ridiculous checklist, what does that say about them? I would send them to therapy. It sounds like they have some serious perfectionism problem which they are applying to their search for a wife in some way.
But you think that they should just “stop being picky.” Uhuh. I get it.
Here is my suggestion: Post that you take it back, that you apologize to all single people, and that you will never pressure a guy or girl again while they are dating in any way.
I had a roommate way back when we were both dating. He kept a list of girls he dated, and he was over the one hundred mark when he got engaged. He wasn’t being picky; in many cases it was the girl who didn’t want to continue dating him. B”H he’s married, lots of kids, they’re happy. What’s the big deal how many girls he went out with?
and that you will never pressure a guy or girl again while they are dating in any way.
That’s wrong. Many singles were too “picky”; when the right kind of pressure was put on them, they were able to overcome commitment or other issues and go on to happy marriages. This is an important reason why for many, a good shadchan is imperative for the successful conclusion of a shidduch (engagement and marriage).
The right kind of pressure can come in many forms; usually outright pressure (“Why are you being so picky!”) won’t work.
Those singles who are confident in their own abilities to find the right one, and won’t accept hep, guidance, and advice, are at a distinct disadvantage.
MSS,
I have NEVER pressured or even in any form subtly convinced any single to continue dating once they say the word no ONCE!
Maybe that’s why so many of your shidduchim prospects need to go out with 100 people.
Someone just told me that she redt a shidduch to her nephew. The girl said no after a few dates. The shadchan convinced her to speak over the inyan with a mentor, who convinced her that her issues were not substantive enough to call it off yet, and she agreed to give it some more time.
They are now B”H happily married.
There are very many such stories.
I would also take into consideration how many dates he has with each girl. I mean is it 1 date for a couple of hours and on to the next or does he go out a couple of times to try to get to know her better than just the first date? Also, did he ever say yes and the other side say no to further dates? These kinds of things give a person a clue into whether the person is going through some sort of check list at the first date and if x,y or z doesn’t match, bye-bye.
PBA: Give me a break. Almost all older single men have only one particular issue which prevents them from getting engaged, and that is them being picky about looks. There is only a small percent of nut cases who have commitment issues, [which is also almost always exclusively the single ‘mens’ issue].
” there are guys who I set up multiple times ” = This I believe
” 44 diferent girls ” = Hmm, but ok, I’ll take the number at face value. But its still a stretch. Think about it: considering the available weeks / days a person can date (once you eliminate yom tovim, 9 days, ect)and the time it takes to check references, to date 44 girls you’re talking about a very busy scedule (unless it was over a 4-5 year period. Or the shidduch was suggested (so that counts as a “set up date”) but never followed up on (which in my mind, counts as zip)
“he was over the one hundred mark when he got engaged.” = Unless he dated for 5-6 years, I think this is in the realm of the other conquestes he no doubt claims to have achieved. Either that, or every name that he was offered (even if he stood a zero chance of her saying “yes” to a date) but he turned down, in his mind, he thinks he had “100 girls”
To that I say, “I coulda be a contender” Same lack of connect with reality. A date is a date if you go out and spend 3-4 hours with someone. To say that someone can meet 100+ people and not meet ANYONE that is a good match means one of two things:
* You don’t know what you’re looking for (and you’re wasting valuable time)
* You’re not telling people what you really want, so they keep setting you up with the wrong people (and you’re wasting valuable time .
I have posted the following quote before, but it is worth repeating. Its from Rav Pam, Z’tl:
“People ask me if I can introduce them to people that can help them find a good shidduch.
The 1st person I introduce them to is themselves”
I heard from a well known shadchan in Lakewood who has made plenty of shidduchim that in all his experience,70% of girls said no within the first 8 dates. After 8 dates, 80% of the time it was the girl that said no. Let’s stop blaming the boys. Yes there are some picky boys, but there are just as many picky girls out there. Perhaps the guys get blamed because they can go out with 50 girls in a year while for a girl it takes longer than a year to get that many dates. The girls are just as much to blame for this whole crisis as the boys. Let’s stop with the blame.
Because one must say 100 Brachos each day!
Because there were 100 adanim in the Mihskan!
RABBAIM: what are you smoking? MEDIUM:uman sonei bnei umnuso. I think the lakewood shadchanim might disagree with you. As for being picky, there are many reasons why they would not want to marry that have nothing to do with just ‘being picky’. And girls have the same issues as boys. get with the program.
PBA: Give me a break. Almost all older single men have only one particular issue which prevents them from getting engaged, and that is them being picky about looks.
Oh, that’s not simplistic at all.
Medium: I completely agree with you. I think older guys generally don’t last over 2-3 dates with all the girls they date. They are obsessed with a fear of not being sufficiently attracted to the physical appearance of the girl.
popa: I’m just trying to attain clarity in this phenomena of ‘older guys’. How else do you attempt to explain this seemingly huge challenge for some great normal older guys to get engaged to one of many [hundreds of]wonderful girls [of all types of personality] who they date with over many years??
LMA: The physical and emotional are intertwined; hence, if one is not sufficiently attracted to the girl, she may not be meeting his emotional needs.
popa: I’m just trying to attain clarity in this phenomena of ‘older guys’. How else do you attempt to explain this seemingly huge challenge for some great normal older guys to get engaged to one of many [hundreds of]wonderful girls [of all types of personality] who they date with over many years??
How do I explain it? I think it is probably for very different reasons, most of which are probably pretty complex.
Popa: I think your vague answer is just an attempt sidetrack the simple explanation of it all. Women are indeed complex; I think men are very simple, as they do not have an emotionally thinking process like women.
medium: i am considered ‘litvish’ and was in lakewood many years. usernames can be misleading. i respect and greatly appreciate the fact that you are trying to be mezavaig zivugim but please don’t knock the guys exclusively. actually please don’t knock any of the singles. no offense but maybe we don’t have a shidduch crisis but a shadchan crisis. btw i might be a girl so careful how you respond.
Tomim Tihye: “The physical and emotional are intertwined; hence, if one is not sufficiently attracted to the girl, she may not be meeting his emotional needs.”
Yes, I agree they are intertwined; however there is plenty room for flexibility and allowing the physical attraction to take hold and then grow. Physical attraction is not an automatic happening which is either hit or miss by the first/second appearance. Did you have ever hear of the concept a person GROWING appreciation for his/her possessions? Same idea by male/female attraction; it has the natural capability to GROW and be just as exciting as a first hit/Drop dead gorgeous.
MSS:
“The top Lakewood Shadchanim dont call back/never meet/dont bother with any girls who dont have reputations for being either the smartest, richest or prettiest.”
I have no need to ever respond to any post of yours ever again. This is so blatantly false
Remember i’m about as big advocate in this forum to help girls get married especially the girls who aren’t married at 19/20 as they come…. you may agree with some of the tacticas promoted and you may disagree but it’s safe to say that i’m posting looking to help the young woment who aren’t married chik chak- fair enough?
MSS: Your comment is so totally out of line, motzei shem ra, libel. you should be embarassed of yourself, and comments like these simply ruin your credibility on all similar shidduch discussions.)
(as an aside, NASI Project can produce the facts to back up what i just wrote-though obviously this is not the forum to publicize such facts- but as a result of the various progams they’ve been running over the years they have come to know very clearly which shadchanim focus on which kinds of girls both in terms of shidduchinm made and dates set up, in additon to haven gotten to know the shadhcanim on a personal level.
Bl”n until you take that back i will not respond to any post of your regarding anything to do with the NASI Project.
Adios
Hey Medium, I think you have a point there. This would never happen in the chassidish world. I’m dating second time around, first time was sit in style.The guys would almost never say no to decent looking normal girl. Sometimes it’s frustrating to always be the one to say no and they get so hurt…all they want is to just get married and get on with the program. Maybe you should start working in the chassidish world;) although I have to say it can take forever until the mothers agree and let their little boys go out which I think is a bit nuts. So I guess it has its pros and cons. On the other hand it would be nice to go out with a guy that really wants and appreciates you for who you are on the inside and uses their brain to try to figure out the girl they’re meeting.
because they are attracted to the girls that are hard to please…
& they just can’t get those dates. when they finally come down to earth, they will realise that NOONE here is perfect, and will come to thier senses and will inevitably be united with thier zivug On THIS EARTH!
bekorov by everyone!
So apparently this thread was reprinted in country yossi magazine.
hee hee
CY must’ve agreed with YW to regularly run a CR thread monthly in the mag.
Don’t get CY, am very curious, do you mean it literally ? It says where its from ?
Don’t want to get everyone riled up again, but:
PBA – am surprised by your stance. Are you in contact with many dating singles ? I am, and know too many guys who wouldn’t even bother to deny the assumption that they basically date by going through their checklist.
Once again, I’m very thankful for the fact that I married the second girl that I ever dated.
The Wolf
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I heard from a well known shadchan in Lakewood who has made plenty of shidduchim that in all his experience,70% of girls said no within the first 8 dates. After 8 dates, 80% of the time it was the girl that said no. Let’s stop blaming the boys. Yes there are some picky boys, but there are just as many picky girls out there. Perhaps the guys get blamed because they can go out with 50 girls in a year while for a girl it takes longer than a year to get that many dates. The girls are just as much to blame for this whole crisis as the boys. Let’s stop with the blame.
& I shall add a shocking but accurate assertion to what this Shadchan said:- Simply because these girls are being so picky, many of the boys eventually get so frustrated, that they simply tragically end up going out with & marrying a Shiksa.
The vast majority of boys who end up marrying a Shiksa but came from observant & even tradditional homes, would much rather marry a Jewish girl, but when they keep being turned down, frustration leads to other consequences and an easy to catch shiksa who isn’t being so picky.
So when will the Bais Yaakov movement begin giving this timely message to their girls, telling them to be realistic & cease being picky JAPS?
Baruch Hashem, nobody seems to read my posts, because I accidentally wrote BELOW instead of ABOVE in my second post. Now it will actually make sense.
I’m only twenty but when the time comes, I would probably have a problem of not being picky enough. Basically, I like everyone and everyone likes me. Does anyone have suggestions on how to choose?
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