Why do they teach girls to sound like Harrys?

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  • #609379

    WIY
    Member

    Seriously why do they teach the boys and girls different havarah? Why dont they teach girls the Yeshivish havara? (I probably just insulted a whole bunch of Harrys)

    #1144958

    squeak
    Participant

    So they can never be Rabbis; never speak in public; never lain in shul without being laughed out of the house.

    The MO teach boys and girls the same havarah, and look where that’s going. The Maharats are an offshoot, as are all the talmudettes.

    OK I’ve had my fun. Now thread can be closed.

    #1144959

    shepherd
    Participant

    you do realize that the yeshivish havara is the newest one that exists it is exclusivly an american invention and is horrifically inaccurate. particularly the newest version where its combined a little more with the chassidish way and e/t is milail….

    #1144960

    SaysMe
    Member

    depends what school the girl went to. And because baalei kriyah sound like harrys when they want to lein properly

    #1144961

    writersoul
    Member

    Harrys?!?!?

    #1144962

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Just because we guys have a silly hangup about sounding yeshivish, doesn’t mean girls should be taught improper havarah.

    #1144963

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    This thread was worth it for squeak.

    #1144964

    oomis
    Participant

    What is “Harrys?”

    #1144965

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    American sounding, in this case, “oh” rather than “oi”.

    #1144966

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    Did Moshe Rabbeinu speak of the Toyrah on Har Sinai?

    #1144967

    ShalomToYou
    Member

    Thank WIY for bringing this up. I wondered about that for years.

    Squeak- well said.

    It’s also a serious problem because according to many Poskim one is not yotzei saying the Shem Hashem when saying ‘Ado- rather one must say Adoi-

    A few years back when I found out about this, I informed my mother and since then she’s been careful during davening to pronounce the Shem Hashem correctly.

    Sadly many people that try to be machmir in other things don’t know about this.

    An even worse problem is when people pronounce Hashems Name as Adi-noy, which according to virtually all Poskim is not valid.

    Very common unfortunately. Just listen to Chazaras Hashatz. It’s a mitzvah to publicize this.

    #1144968

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yismach Moyshe b’matnas chelkoy

    Ki eved ne’emon koroso loy

    K’lil tiferes b’royshoy nosato loy

    B’omdoy l’fonecho al Har Sinoy

    Or:

    Yismach Mohshe b’matnas chelkoh

    Ki eved ne’emon koroso loh

    K’lil tiferes b’rohshoh nosato loh

    B’omdoh l’fonecho al Har Sinoh

    ??

    #1144969

    squeak
    Participant

    pba, thank you muchly

    #1144970

    Curiosity
    Participant

    DY – neither… even according to the “oyers” it should be See-nuy not See-noy. And anyways, mihaychi taysi that it’s supposed to rhyme in the first place? Sorry, but that’s a very weak proof, if at all one.

    #1144971

    CRuzer
    Member

    ShalomToYou, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Ever seen the proofs as to whether “oh” or “oi” is correct? Spoiler alert: The proofs for “oh” are much more convincing.

    Anyway, the rabonim (might’ve been the Moetzes, but I don’t remember) decided many years ago that both havaros are fine.

    You’re right about the Adi problem. That’s definitely not how it’s pronounced.

    #1144972

    WIY
    Member

    DY

    Actually the word sinai I pronounce see-nigh (nigh of the word night) not see-noi.

    #1144973

    oomis
    Participant

    It would seem to me, that as the Teimanim are believed to have the authentic throughout history pronunciation of Ivrit, that Oh, rather than Oy is correct.

    Was it not first in Europe that the havara changed? And WIY is correct about Sinai (See-neye).

    #1144974

    Sam2
    Participant

    Shalom: What on earth are you talking about that you’re not Yotzei with Ado…? A Cholam making an O sound is far more correct than an Oi. Where did you get that “P’sak”?

    #1144975

    benignuman
    Participant

    I have a hypothesis to answer the OP.

    When Bais Yakov was first started the female teachers were drawn from the Yekke communities in Germany, because they were the only available women learned enough to teach. They taught using their yekkish pronunciation and it got altered slightly over the years to the current pronunciation.

    #1144976

    Geordie613
    Participant

    I have discussed this before somewhere.

    Many of our tefilos, selichos and piyutim were written in rhyme.

    I was told by a prominent rov, to always use the haavara you were originally taught in.

    #1144977

    sbeph
    Participant

    Few in europe said “o” they either said oy ei or ow

    #1144978

    benignuman
    Participant

    sbeph,

    I think the “ow” become “o” in America.

    #1144979

    Few in europe said “o” they either said oy ei or ow

    In the last years of Europe there was a lot more “ow” than the other two.

    #1144980

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Huh? Or is it Heh?

    #1144981

    golfer
    Participant

    Hoi! , as in ahoy! , apushata.

    Your welcome.

    #1144983

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Ok… what is a Harry? I’ve come across this term several times.

    I want to know if I sound like one.

    #1144985

    WIY
    Member

    Actually the term is probably Harriet for girls.

    #1144986

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    How do I know if I sound like a Harry?

    #1144987

    Toi
    Participant

    i was answering torahs q- A-backpacks and highlighters.

    #1144988

    chofetzchaim
    Member
    #1144989

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sorry, but that’s a very weak proof, if at all one

    I agree. It’s still cute.

    #1144990

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY

    Actually the word sinai I pronounce see-nigh (nigh of the word night) not see-noi.

    Not at the end of a passuk (but see my post above; I meant it b’derech b’dichusa).

    #1144991

    just my hapence
    Participant

    DY – I know you meant it derech s’chok but it’s not cute, or even a proof for two reasons:

    a) The rhyming supposition is unfounded, as the words “shabbos” and “sorosecha” definitely do not and will never rhyme with “chelko[y]”

    b)The two siddurim generally held to be grammatically most accurate (and those most widespread in the Germanic kehillos for the last 250 years) – siddur Sfas Emes and siddur Avodas Yisroel – both have “Sinai” with a patach and not a komatz in sight.

    #1144992

    mik5
    Participant

    SHALOMTOYOU – It is indeed a very common problem, and one should made every effort to learn to pronounce Hashem’s name correctly.

    Having said that, Piskei Teshuvos (1: 5: 6) quotes from Nimukei Orach Chaim, that articulating the daled of A-doinoi with a chirik, sounding as A-dinoi, may be acceptable after the fact.

    The opinion of Rav Miller shlit”a (from Canada] is that it is OK b’dieved, and one answers “Baruch Hu uvaruch shemo” and “Amein” to such brachos.

    However, I do not understand this psak, nor do I agree with it.

    #1144993

    mik5
    Participant

    It’s also a serious problem because according to many Poskim one is not yotzei saying the Shem Hashem when saying ‘Ado- rather one must say Adoi-

    It seems to me that this is not true at all. It is a matter of custom. Ask your rav.

    An even worse problem is when people pronounce Hashems Name as Adi-noy, which according to virtually all Poskim is not valid.

    Very common unfortunately. Just listen to Chazaras Hashatz. It’s a mitzvah to publicize this.

    This is true. See my comments above. There is a sign in the Mirrer Yeshiva (by the coffee area, for some reason) regarding this matter. Over this past Shabbos, I have heard a baal tefilla for Mincha (erev Shabbos) saying the name of Hashem wrong in EVERY bracha of Chazaras Hashatz. In addition, I heard the baal koreh saying it wrong (Mincha on Shabbos), as well as one of the people who received an aliyah saying it wrong in both brachos. Next time, I will bli neder make a point of rebuking those who say it wrong (if I can muster up the courage to do so).

    #1144994

    takahmamash
    Participant

    mik5:

    Next time, I will bli neder make a point of rebuking those who say it wrong (if I can muster up the courage to do so).

    I hope you’re writing this as a late April Fools joke, and that you’re not serious. If you’re not the gabbai of the shule or yeshiva, then it’s not your place to rebuke ANYONE. What are you, a Harry?

    #1144995

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    a) The rhyming supposition is unfounded, as the words “shabbos” and “sorosecha” definitely do not and will never rhyme with “chelko[y]”

    Meh. The rhyme has got to end somewhere.

    b)The two siddurim generally held to be grammatically most accurate (and those most widespread in the Germanic kehillos for the last 250 years) – siddur Sfas Emes and siddur Avodas Yisroel – both have “Sinai” with a patach and not a komatz in sight.

    That just proves that the other siddurim are correct.

    Torah613Torah, have you ever figured out what a Harry is?

    #1144996

    mik5
    Participant

    The Torah requires me to rebuke any Jew who is doing an aveira. It is not recommended to argue with the Torah, takahmamash.

    #1144997

    takahmamash
    Participant

    mik5, you’ve got a lot to learn about life and derech eretz. Good luck.

    P.S., I’m not arguing with the Torah – I’m arguing with you. Do you go up to women on the street and complain to them if they don’t meet your ideas of tznuah?

    #1144998

    mik5
    Participant

    takahmamash: You made a statement that it is not my place to rebuke ANYONE unless I am a gabbai. This is simply not true. The mitzvah of rebuking sinners was given to every Jew, not just to gabbais.

    I try my best not to look at immodest women. Sometimes I do want to go over to them, and tell the husband who is wearing a long kapote: “Take off your kapote and have your wife [who is wearing a mini-skirt] put it on.”

    #1144999

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Is it a kvi, Kevi, Koy or Kow?

    #1145000

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    i’m starting to get the picture that mik5 is one of those teens Joseph was able to influence.

    #1145001

    mik5
    Participant

    Influence in what?

    #1145002

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant
    #1145003

    catch yourself
    Participant

    If the Tochacha (however you pronounce that) is given gently and with genuine concern to help the other person get it right, it is almost always accepted gratefully, and everyone wins.

    It is most certainly incumbent upon you to do so in most cases.

    If it is done in the form of rebuke, you are likely to get less favorable results.

    It is most certainly incumbent upon you not to do so in all cases.

    I often hear people pronounce Hashem’s Name as, “Ah-doh-noh”, forgetting that even if you pronounce a cholam as “oh”, the Yud at the end of the Name is still there. I wonder what Rav Miller v’siyato would say about this.

    #1145004

    writersoul
    Member

    I still don’t know what a Harry is.

    #1145005

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Your loss.

    #1145006

    zogt_besser
    Participant

    for all who asked: harry is a term for guys that are yeshivish but its clear they grew up more modernish, fully MO, or maybe just out of town. So they try to fit into yeshivish culture but don’t always get it right or davka do their own thing. For example, wearing a gray hat. Touro is swarming with them.

    #1145007

    The Queen
    Participant

    I know of 2 Harrys

    Harry Potter

    Prince Harry (England)

    kidding, I heard of Harry and greasy a couple years ago from my daughter.

    #1145008

    Joseph
    Participant

    i’m starting to get the picture that mik5 is one of those teens Joseph was able to influence.

    Can’t believe I missed that for over a day.

    Thanks for the compliment! Though I suspect he’s well over his teenage years and developed his proper hashkafos without my input.

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