Why do we call them Toysfiss

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  • #605937
    besalel
    Participant

    Why is it that everyone calls Tosfos, Tosfos and not Tosafos. There seems to be a general consensus that they are called Tosafos.

    #1046016
    akuperma
    Participant

    Because in a living language, people pronounce things fast and naturally. It’s a sign you are alive. In a dead language, such as Latin or Sumerian, everything is pronounced correctly all the time since the forces that affect living languages no longer are at work.

    If the Germans won the war, their scholars studying Judaica (who were building up a massive library by pilgering sefarim all over Europe) would have pronounced everything exactly and correctly, unaffected by any living people who really cared about the materials.

    #1046017
    uneeq
    Member

    Where I come from they are called Tosafot.

    #1046018
    on the ball
    Participant

    It is for the same reason that the fourteenth word in this sentence isn’t spoken out in full.

    #1046019
    musser zoger
    Participant

    Litvaks call it Taysfus.

    #1046020
    Ðash®
    Participant

    Why use three syllables when you can convey the same information with two?

    #1046021
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Because many people in many communities, particularly Haredi Ashkenazi ones, are totally unconcerned with proper dikduk and usage of the Hebrew language.

    #1046022
    longarekel
    Member

    rebdoniel: avak lashon hara? please be careful. Anyway the entire talmud bavli is full of ‘not-proper’ dikduk of lashon hakodesh. There are deep reasons why yidden have not used proper dikduk in ordinary speech in the generations after nevua. Even when it comes to tefilla the matter is debatable. Things are not so simple.

    #1046023
    besalel
    Participant

    Some very interesting responses here. i liked akuperma’s explanation. but still, you would think the better thing to do would be if everyone just pronounced it toysafos from now on. interestingly, the artscroll english shas spells it tosafos. i think longarekel’s suggestion that there are deep reasons for mispronouncing words even in tfilla is unlikely. its like when my 5 year old tries to find an affirmative reason for some mistake she made. based on the interesting responses here it seems reasonable to conclude that it is not such a big deal to mispronounce words but to say its affirmatively more desirable? pffft.

    #1046024
    zaidy78
    Participant

    For the same reason why it is “yontif”, and the shem Hashem is often prodounced “Adin…” instead of “Adon…”

    Probobly why in English we pronounce “of” as “ov”. The “V” sound requires less energy than the “F” sound.

    There is no end to the examples available.

    #1046025
    akuperma
    Participant

    rebdoniel:

    1. Many frum Jews are speaking Yiddish, not Hebrew. Various vowel and consonant shifts occured, as they have in German.

    2. What defines proper Hebrew? Certainly it requires careful differentiation between ? and ?, and respect for the dagesh in all letters where it occurs (including daled and gimmel). The accent of Jews from Yemen might be the closest. The multiple “S” and “T” letters are all mistakes (natural ones, as many language evolve along similar lines) — note how all American mispronounce the gutteral “gh” as in how we would have written Ghanukah had there been any English-speaking Jews in the middle age.

    3. Had the Jewish people been wiped out, Hebrew would have been frozen and there would be a “right” pronounciation. But we surived and have been writing, and speaking, Hebrew for millenia, and like all languages, it evolves.

    4. Obviously the correct pronounciation is the way Ha-Shem spoke to us at Sinai. If the correct pronounciation was of any halachic significance, I’m sure that Torah would have been given on CDs so the matter would be clear.

    #1046026
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Because people slur words when they speak quickly. Eventually it becomes part of the “shprach.” Then again, there are some people who are so upset at the idea of anything breaking their lockstep conformity that they cry nazi.

    #1046027
    Toi
    Participant

    we call it that because it sounds better.

    #1046028

    We yekkes call it Towsfowss

    #1046029
    shnitzy
    Member

    high

    #1046030
    yehudayona
    Participant

    zaidy78, no native speaker of English pronounces “of” with a voiceless labiodental fricative. Otherwise, it would be pronounced the same as “off.”

    #1046034
    eek
    Member

    I call them Rashi.

    #1046035
    MachaaMaker
    Member

    K Shkoyach we also say yuntif and chulamoid and shalashudes

    #1046036
    eek
    Member

    That’s Yiddish though.

    #1046037
    oomis
    Participant

    K Shkoyach we also say yuntif and chulamoid and shalashudes “

    That’s Yiddish though. “

    Uh… no… that’s actually HEBREW – Yom Tov, Chol Hamoed, and Shalosh Seudos. Most Yiddish is an amalgam of Hebrew and German that has been slightly re-worked.

    #1046038
    BoruchSchwartz
    Participant

    yiddish is english with a yiddish accent

    #1046039
    eek
    Member

    oomis- no, in yiddish the way to say seudas shlishis is shaloshudes in one word.

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