Why do working people tend to not be as ruchniyus as Kollel people?

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  • #616959

    Joseph
    Participant

    There must be a reason.

    #1176960

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    to give people here a chance to….

    #1176961

    MsPrincess
    Member

    There is no reason. Some people are just more religious than others and some are less religious than others. Some have a stronger desire to fulfill Hashem’s mitzvo’s than others.

    #1176962

    Are you referring to balebatim, working b’nei Torah, or both?

    (Should posterity be unaware, >this thread< was active at the time.)

    #1176963

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Because working to earn a living means you can’t spend all your time high on religion and must become the person your boss wants you to be.

    #1176964

    MsPrincess
    Member

    this is unfortunately true but dont forget that there has to be special people who will get the zechus of supporting them like the 2 shivatim one supported the other learnt.

    #1176965

    cause they are more surrounded in the gashmiyus (physical) world as they travel to work & deal with people while taking them out to eat etc…

    Kollel people are locked in the bais medrash and removed from the tumah of this physical world. “a blessing that we are not all blessed to be with”

    If you have the opportunity to remove yourself from this olam hasheker (physical pleasurable world) & put yourself with a straight relationship with Hashem-the melech malchei hamelochim-don’t pass it up. (how honored would you be to have a face to face relationship with President Obama? would you give up the opportunity)

    #1176966

    Luna Lovegood
    Participant

    I work. I also keep halacha and make time to learn Torah. My parents work. They also keep halacha and make time to learn Torah. My grandparents work. They also keep halacha and make time to learn Torah. Please explain how we are any “less religious” just because we choose to put food on our table instead of relying on assistance from other people?

    #1176967

    akuperma
    Participant

    Bt definition, a “Kollel” person who is a person who chooses to give up most of their parnasah to learn all day. If they were less into ruchnios, they would be more concerned with parnasah.

    The fact that we are so rich today that we can provide a tolerable level of support for people learning all day is nice.

    One is assuming the term “kollel” is used in the current meaning of a program to support people learnign all day. In the past, “kollel” was a community in which some members might be learning all day, and others working (with all receiving assistance based on need).

    #1176968

    Avi K
    Participant

    M.A., we are not supposed to be monks. We are supposed to elevate the material by being active in the world. All of the Tanaim and Amoraim either worked or lived from the rents paid by sharecroppers (which required knowledge of how to deal with them). They dealt with real-life legal problems and discussed psychological insights (e.g. “ain adam meiz panim bifnei baal chovo”). This is the true realtionship of the Jew with Hashem. Thus, when the Bet Mikdash is in place we can bring shelamim and eat them b’kedusha. A goy can only bring an olah, which is completely given over to Hashem.

    #1176969

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People who learn in Kollel dont bother themselves with everyday concerns. While some might think this is deseriable. It also means you bother yourself with such things as paying your nessasary bills. Feeding your family , Spending time with your children

    #1176970

    MsPrincess
    Member

    this is not true. i work to support a husband.

    #1176971

    amichai
    Participant

    I can not believe you can write something like this.

    I know many many balei batim, young and old that have only one

    thing they would want to be doing and that is learning.

    they are at daf yomi at 5.oo am, then davening.

    middle of the day after mincha there are shiurim in offices, maariv

    at nite at home and shiurim at nite or daf yomi.

    don’t ever say balei batim are not spiritual like kollel avreichim.

    #1176972

    Sam2
    Participant

    Maybe your assumptions fuel your conclusion.

    #1176973

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wow. With all the dumb comments in this thread, still nothing beats the OP.

    #1176974

    apushatayid
    Participant

    What does the phrase “not to be as ruchnius” mean?

    #1176975

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Joseph: I don’t think that is automatically the case. There are plenty of people who are Talmidei Chachomin that don’t want to rely on others to support them or to over burden their wives.

    Most Kollel people are very genuine, but not all. You can’t always judge a book by its cover.

    #1176976

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I think we need to define what the OP means by ruchniyus. Do people have to wear their ruchniyus on their sleeve for others to behold or is it an internal feeling?

    Zahavasdad: To qualify, I think “people” is too general. The working wives certainly have to be concerned with these issues unless they happen to have parents that sustain them and fill in for whatever they themselves don’t earn to make ends meet.

    To be unconcerned with gashmius seems wrongheaded. Who then is supposed to be concerned with basic needs? For some reason, the current system of wives supporting makes a joke out of the terms of the kesubah. If the husband doesn’t work, how he can he meet his obligations? Obviously, the husband needs to have some gashmius concerns.

    #1176977

    takahmamash
    Participant

    I don’t think you know the right working people.

    #1176978

    MsPrincess
    Member

    This is true you cant judge people who work they may want to learn full time but they need to support their families.

    #1176979

    B1g B0y
    Participant

    Wrong,Wrong,Wrong

    (Original poster)

    There are many working people who take their ruchniyus much more seriously.

    #1176980

    Joseph
    Participant

    Poll: How many of the above posters don’t understand the term “tend”

    #1176981

    MsPrincess
    Member

    tend is a very strong word. we dont know who your talking about.

    #1176982

    pcoz
    Member

    If your definition of ruchniyosdik is hard working then I disagree with the question.

    #1176983

    6
    Participant

    I’ve heard people in kollel compared to fresh psychology graduates: they know all the theory and are caught up with all the texts, but aren’t familiar with actual reality. After twenty years of experience, they’ve tested their previous work and they theories they learned. It may not match what they had imagined, but it is genuine and more realistic.

    #1176984

    oomis
    Participant

    This thread bothers me on many levels, and I believe it was started just for the sake of being controversial (what a shocker!). Kollel people have not cornered the market on ruchniyus. They are no more ruchaniyim (the grammatically correct expression, in the context of how the thread was titled) than any other frum person who is devoted to Torah and Mitzvos.

    As a matter of fact, going by the expression that Yom Kippurim is a yom k’Purim, I would tend to believe that the person who earns a living, supports a family by that living, and STILL manages to find a goodly amount of time to learn every day, has fulfilled his ruchniyus quota for that day. It is very easy to think oneself to be filled with ruchniyus when one avoids exposure to ALL aspects of the outside world, sitting in a Bais Medrash all day. But for that same person to still be filled with ruchniyus while exposed to the outside world – well, I have a great deal of respect for that person, because his yetzer hara is that much stronger.

    #1176985

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Bump.

    #1176986

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Amichai: “I can not believe you can write something like this.

    I know many many balei batim, young and old that have only one

    thing they would want to be doing and that is learning.

    they are at daf yomi at 5.oo am, then davening.

    middle of the day after mincha there are shiurim in offices, maariv

    at nite at home and shiurim at nite or daf yomi.

    don’t ever say balei batim are not spiritual like kollel avreichim”

    Amichai, if they would rather be learning than doing anything else, that means that they think that it is better to learn (if one can). Why do they think that it is better to learn if one can? And why do they try to spend as much time learning as they can? It is because they think that learning makes a person more Ruchnius and the more they learn, the more ruchniusdik they will be. So you have just proven the OP’s point that the more someone learns, the more ruchnius he will be.

    Note: That does not necessarily mean he is a better person. Only Hashem can judge who is a better person than who. We do not know and have no way of knowing what people’s bechira levels are, and therefore we can never possibly discuss such a thing. Whenever we talk about someone being better, we can never mean who is a better person in terms of how much they have grown and how much reward Hashem will give them, since we never have any way of knowing such a thing.

    We can only talk about who is “more ruchnius” in this world and who has it better in the here and now. The more a person learns (all else being equal), the more ruchniusdik he is. That is why everyone should learn as much as he can (“as much as he can” obviously involves many factors and is very subjective), and should be happy that he has as many opportunities to learn as he does, and be jealous (kinas sofrim) of those who learn more and realize how lucky they are to be able to learn more then him and strive and daven for more opportunities to learn.

    #1176987

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Note: That does not necessarily mean he is a better person. Only Hashem can judge who is a better person than who. We do not know and have no way of knowing what people’s bechira levels are, and therefore we can never possibly discuss such a thing. Whenever we talk about someone being better, we can never mean who is a better person in terms of how much they have grown and how much reward Hashem will give them, since we never have any way of knowing such a thing.

    We can only talk about who is “more ruchnius” in this world and who has it better in the here and now. The more a person learns (all else being equal), the more ruchniusdik he is. That is why everyone should learn as much as he can (“as much as he can” obviously involves many factors and is very subjective), and should be happy that he has as many opportunities to learn as he does, and be jealous (kinas sofrim) of those who learn more and realize how lucky they are to be able to learn more then him and strive and daven for more opportunities to learn.

    Nice save. 🙂 “All else being equal” basically makes the post meaningless, because all else is never equal.

    #1176988

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    GAW – we are only talking about a case where all else is equal, and it shouldn’t have even been necessary to write that. I only wrote that in case there were people who didn’t realize that any time you compare one thing to another thing, you have to assume that everything else is equal or the argument is pointless. It’s like when you are conducting an experiment to compare two things and you have to make sure that everything is equal besides the thing that you are testing (is that the variable? – I can’t remember the scientific terms right now.)

    #1176989

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Provide for your family

    Do acts of kindness and righteousness

    Learn Torah within your capabilities

    Be a true loving brother or sister to your fellow Jew, and a righteous example to the rest of the world

    Seek and find fulfillment and joy in every mitzvah you have an opportunity to do

    Make certain that your children value Torah Eretz Yisroel and am Yisroel

    Recognize the Yad Hashem in your life and the ways of the world

    Those are the ways to be “more ruchniyus”

    Its not a competition or a hierarchy

    All the rest is commentary

    #1176990

    yichusdik
    Participant

    One of the most ruchniyusdik people I know has been involved in Kiruv for over 40 years. He has smicha. He gives regular shiurim. I’ve never known him to say no to a request to participate in an event, a shabbaton, or an urgent need. He gives significant tzedokoh. He is a worldly, knowledgeable well known and beloved where he lives in Toronto, in New York, in Israel and around the world. He does tons of hidden chesed work. And he is always always looking for ways to share his elevated spiritual connection with HKBH.

    And he runs a successful private investment fund, full time.

    #1176991

    MDG
    Participant

    “Why do working people tend to not be as ruchniyus as Kollel people?”

    1) The way the question was posed has a tinge of Lashon Hara. It should say “Why do Kollel people have more….”

    2) Let’s properly define “ruchniyus “, otherwise we’ll be talking in circles.

    3) Whatever exactly is “ruchniyus” (see above), I think that most of us view it as an internal trait. With that in mind, how can it be measured?

    #1176992

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW – we are only talking about a case where all else is equal, and it shouldn’t have even been necessary to write that.

    So your posts are only on an academic level and are never meant for anyone to apply to real world situations?

    In that case….

    All else being equal one should learn all day

    All else being equal one should do chessed all day

    All else being equal one should teach their children Torah themselves

    All else being equal one should support their family

    All else being equal one should not marry, as it takes away from learning

    All else being equal one should marry, as it saves them from the yetzer,

    Need I go on?

    #1176993

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    MDG, you have some good points.

    A better Title for the thread probably would be, “The benefits of full-time learning” or something along those lines. That way, there is no implied insult to anyone, and is LESS likely to turn into a bashing/comparing thread.

    #1176994

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    A better Title for the thread

    Only if the purpose was to have a discussion, but not if the purpose is to imply insult, and HAVE a bashing/comparing thread.

    #1176995

    huju
    Participant

    Working people are the worst. They pay their bills and make the Kollel guys look bad. And they make donations to shuls and yeshivas and expect thanks in return. The worst of them even pay the kollel guys’ bills. We would be better off without those creeps.

    #1176996

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Huju – no, only the ones who feel a need to bash the people who are learning Torah all day.

    #1176997

    Person1
    Member

    LU that couldn’t have been what the OP meant, because then there is no question. If you measure ruchnius by torah learning, then by definition everyone who learns more is of greater ruchnius.

    With that said I liked how you put it. Torah is ruchnius.

    My answers to the OP question: there are many people who are in kolel and are complete batlonim and have no yiras shomaim. Just mitvas anoshim melumodo.

    I do agree that there are more gdoylim (in both torah and maasim tovim) to be found inside the kolel than outside. That’s not surprising, because someone who is ben alie will try harder to stay in torah learning.

    Also, today in some communities it’s shameful to works for a living. So many people who do works either come from a more modern communities, or left their community for a more modern lifestyle.

    Joseph what do you think about that?

    #1176998

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1: “My answers to the OP question: there are many people who are in kolel and are complete batlonim and have no yiras shomaim. Just mitvas anoshim melumodo.”

    Those are obviously not the people that the OP was referring to. If they are batlanim, they are not “in Kollel” by definition, even if they spend their day hanging out in the Beis. For that matter, you can say that the janitor is in kollel too (that would actually be more accurate than saying that the batlanim are in kollel.). Additionally, they are a minority and should not be brought up in every Kollel discussion in order to make it sound like that is what kollel is about. All Avreichim whom I know are extremely serious masmidim and bnei Torah and bnei aliyah.

    “I do agree that there are more gdoylim (in both torah and maasim tovim) to be found inside the kolel than outside. That’s not surprising, because someone who is ben alie will try harder to stay in torah learning.”

    That had occurred to me as well. That someone who is a more ruchniyus person to start with is more LIKELY to end up in Kollel (not to imply that there can’t be very Ruchnius people who are working, just talking about probabilities here. After all, someone who has no desire for Ruchnius is a lot less likely to consider going to kollel).

    #1176999

    Sparkly
    Member

    There are MANY people who work who learn plenty and are always doing chessed so that is NOT true.

    #1177000

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Sparkly – what’s not true?

    #1177001

    Sparkly
    Member

    lilmod ulelamaid – that people who work dont have as much ruchnioys as people who do work.

    #1177002

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    No one said that there aren’t people who work who are very Ruchniusnik. It was a question of averages. Since it’s a hard thing to measure and can only lead to Sinas Chinam, I don’t know that I agree with the whole topic being raised in the first place. But your point does not really prove anything.

    #1177003

    Health
    Participant

    Sparkly -“lilmod ulelamaid – that people who work dont have as much ruchnioys as people who do work”

    As a matter of fact, I knew s/o who worked most of his life, and was one of the two best students ever, that the Yeshiva ever produced since the beginning of that Yeshiva! That Yeshiva has been around since at least from the 20’s!

    #1177004

    Person1
    Member

    LU now that I’m reading the question again I see it says: “tend not to be” so it allows for a minority who are in kolel and are not so ruchnius (is it used as an adjective?) So I take back what I said. I thought it referred to all people.

    Yet we have different opinions about the dagrees of batole in kolels. That’s ok. I’ve no way to show I’m right, and I don’t think you have, so there is no point arguing.

    It’s good to know you agree with my second point.

    #1177005

    Person1
    Member

    As for the definition of being “in kolel”: when I read the resume of a girl, and it says her older brother is in kolel, I don’t take it to mean he is a great masmid. It’s about the way people talk. Nothing more.

    #1177006

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Because you defined ruchniyos as being in kollel.

    #1177007

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Health – as I pointed out to Sparkly, that’s not a proof. The OP was phrased, “Why do working people TEND to not be as ruchniyus as Kollel people?” If it had been phrased, “Why are working people NEVER as ruchniyus as Kollel people?”, you would be correct.

    #1177008

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1: Yet we have different opinions about the dagrees of batole in kolels. That’s ok. I’ve no way to show I’m right, and I don’t think you have, so there is no point arguing.

    That’s true. We obvious know different people. I feel bad for you that you don’t know the same kind of people that I know – I wish I could introduce you to them. They’re very kidai to know. But since they are not the type to hang out on CR (since they are real masmidim), I have no way to do that.

    “It’s good to know you agree with my second point.” 🙂

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