Why do YOU want Moshiach to come?

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  • #1058553
    Kozov
    Member

    Don’t. But I really don’t know what you’re talking about (I searched for it). Especially considering how you didn’t address my comment in defense of what I wrote from the Rambam. I don’t see how what I wrote is so different from what SIDI wrote. Why can’t I say Kavyachol too (about Hashem)? And you wrote “probably Apikorsus”!

    #1058554
    Sam2
    Participant

    Kozov: You can. The Besht clearly wasn’t. And you can ignore the word “probably”. That was just me being nice. There are plenty who try to be Meyashev Chassidish (and the Arizal) thought with the Rambam, but all of them are clear distortions of the Moreh.

    #1058555
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, I think both are misunderstood.

    I agree strongly that people shouldn’t be playing with statements about Hashem, before learning these things seriously.

    The Gemara describes how Kavyachol cried by the Churban. Those who understand the inference are, or should be, the ones to use that terminology. Otherwise, we can just say that Hashem’s name is desecrated everyday by Tzaros of Yidden, as it says, Lama Yomru Hagoyim Aye Hashem Elokecha. We pray for the end of Yiddishe suffering, when Hashem’s name, that is bound to Klal Yiroel, will be exalted and sanctified.

    There are large segements of Jews that don’t believe in, and are ignorant of, Hashem and His Torah. And yet, when they have a Tzara R”L, the nations say, Aye Hashem Elokecha.

    The Maharal brings a Yerushalmi in Taanis that gives a Mashal to a king that had a key that he couldn’t afford to lose. He therefore put a large chain around it and wore it. Hashem saw that if left alone, the Jews would get swallowed up amongst the nations. He therefore attached His name to us.

    #1058556
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    A word about words:

    When we find feelings attributed to Hashem, as in regret, sad, crying, happy, laugh; obviously, we aren’t supposed to take it litteraly. However, feelings are actually self-realizing opinions, in an emotionally healthy person. When someone is sad, they are recognizing a loss to themselves. A feeling is also something that you can’t turn off. Having a feeling implies that something from the outside affected you. These two latter statements don’t apply to Hashem.

    However, not necessarily are they part of the definition of a feeling, although it usually comes along with one. So, when we say that Hakadosh Baruch Hu was sad by the Churban, that means that even from Hashem’s perspective it was a sad momment and a great, albeit necessary, loss.

    When you understand things this way, you don’t have to turn Mamarei Chazal into a Mashal. You just have to understand it correctly.

    #1058557
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Hey, one minute. Now that I said that, this thread goes into oblivion!?

    #1058559
    hal
    Member

    i really don’t know how i’m supposed to long for Moshiach when i know as soon as he comes the world will exist in a way that i can’t receive the same reward for my mitzvah’s. or so i understand. if i’m incorrect about that, then someone correct me, and you will have fixed my problem.

    but if you agree with me, then it’s a serious issue i can’t get past. and i think people who don’t have that issue are often just oblivious to what it means to earn reward for olam haba.

    besides i’m not so sure why we want Moshiach to come in the first place.

    is it so we can serve HaShem in the Beis Hamikdash? because we are serving HaShem, and it may not be all the mitzvot, but i would imagine our mitzvot are more dear to G-d when we overcome our yetzer’s, and he’d rather have our Torah learning done in current difficult conditions than our sacrifices at a time when it’s easy.

    so we do it so the goyim should know HaShem? well that’s strange, we’re sacrificing our spirituality for them? could be, but i don’t believe it, i never saw any Rabbi put it that way.

    and if we’re doing it for HaShem, what does HaShem get out of it? what could we ever do for HaShem when all he does is for us? he’s perfect, he doesn’t need praise or love or acknowledgment, his perfection is beyond our comprehension, needs don’t apply to G-d.

    so why do we long for Moshiach?

    now if you say that after Moshiach comes we continue to gain reward, it all is well and good, we can learn Torah, do mitzvot, serve at the Holy Temple. but if you don’t get reward, then it’s basically saying death, because that’s all death is, a time when you can’t repent or get reward for observance. and no one is praying for that. i’m inclined to believe therefore that when Moshiach comes we continue to have free will and get reward, just the same as before, and eventually the world becomes perfected in a way that there’s no free will, but that’s when time is out and we all have had all the time we need to reach shelamos.

    #1058560
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    hal,

    whats the point of life, to get schar? thats like having a kid do his chores to get a treat, the reason there is life is to give happiness to Hashem, and Hashem has the most happiness when the world completes its tachlis (kav v’yachol)

    #1058561
    hal
    Member

    YES coffee addict, according to the Ramchal, read “The Way of G-d”, yes the purpose of life on earth is to earn reward. otherwise why is there suffering? it serves a purpose. and btw, that is what gives HaShem happiness.

    coffee addict, this is important Hashkafa to know so please read and try and understand, i’m quoting the book “The Way of G-d”

    in “the way of G-d” we learn that G-d created man in order to give to man. G-d is perfect, and there’s nothing man can give to G-d. G-d wanted to give because G-d is giving and merciful so he created a being known as human to receive good, and G-d wants to give man the perfect good, and the only true good that exists is G-d, so the ultimate good is man to attach himself to G-d and be as similar as G-d as he can. however here’s the catch, to be similar to G-d and therefore experience to pleasure G-d wants us to experience, we need to use our own free will and choose to be like G-d, because G-d wasn’t forced by anything to be G-d, so we can’t be like G-d if we are forced and aren’t holy by choice. the idea of what G-d is, and how G-d is necessary are very deep ideas, and contemplating G-d in that way, personally i find it very powerful and inspiring me with awe of G-d. if there was no G-d there would be absolutely nothing, but G-d exists, and really G-d is all that exists, and all that has to exist. it’s not ‘luck’ that G-d exists, it’s part of the idea of G-d.

    so anyway, this world is for earning the reward, the world to come is for receiving the reward. basically when we can’t earn reward it’s the same as being dead. and no one prays for that. that’s my question (if Moshiach era means not earning reward).

    G-d created to give, there’s nothing for G-d to receive because Gd is perfect. there’s nothing we can give him, all the mitzvot are to purify and improve us.

    btw im not saying we should do mitzvot only for the reward, but considering that this reward is closeness to HaShem, and the only true good that exists for us, i don’t believe any intelligent person could ever want to give that up.

    and yes a good parent does only make their kids do there chores to get a treat. although the treat is becoming a better more mature person, learning independence and life skills, etc.

    (please forgive poor grammar, written late at night quickly)

    #1058562
    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    Hal,

    Lemme see if i understand your question. You dont want Mashiach cuz then youll get less reward? Its a valid question, if that is what youre asking. I am struggling with it too. Please confirm that that was your question and i will try to make time to write a long answer. 🙂

    #1058563

    When mashiach comes there will finally be clarity. What greater reward can I ask for?

    #1058564
    hal
    Member

    yes, the-art-of-moi, its basically my question. altho i admit i’m wrong, and a hypocrite also, because i do pray for my life to be easier, which could also mean less reward, but then again it’s not less reward cuz i get the schar of bitachon and praying to G-d and that’s what G-d wants, us to pray for help.

    but basically, what is death? death means you can’t do mitzvahs any more and you get your reward, and if a person dies pure then death is very good for them, they go to the soul world and experience pleasure infinitely greater than anything and everything in this physical realm. unfortunately they can’t do any more mitzvot (and i do believe that G-d gives us the time we need to either reach perfection, or reach a point that we refuse to grow further and G-d knows that more life won’t accomplish anything, after all G-d is the ultimate giver, he doesn’t do anybody any wrong by taking lives early)

    now when moshiach comes, and we can’t grow further, how is that different than death? seriously. life is the time to work and grow and death is the time to enjoy what was earned. moshiach time, if it’s all about enjoying reward, and no growth, isn’t that death? i do live for Olam Haba, but i don’t pray to go there while i can, and still need to accomplish in Olam Hazeh so my Olam Haba can be perfect. i mean i dunno know about you, but i wanna be up there with Moshe Rabbeinu and Dovid HaMelech, and the rest of Chazal and all the holy Tzaddikim. and anyone who doesn’t want to be at the top of Olam Haba it’s not because they’ve conquered their ego or desire for reward and pleasure, it’s the opposite, it’s because they’re spiritual small and physical, but ya know it’s something to work on.

    #1058565
    hal
    Member

    thechoiceismine, what greater reward is their than clarity? how about clarity you discovered on your own, rather than clarity forced upon you by things outside you.

    Infact people explain that’s why Torah learning, especially Talmud, is so complicated. they could of just spoon fed us all the halachas and hashkafas and exactly what to do and require no work to get to the answers, that would be instant clarity, and you say, what can be better? Well Chazal knew what was better, working hard and struggling to achieve that clarity! only when one is truly familiar with the dark can he really appreciate the light!

    angels wanted to teach the Vilna Gaon, but the Gaon refused on the grounds that he didn’t want to learn without the chance of amal b’Torah, (toiling in Torah), toiling in pursuit of Truth. according to the pain is the reward!

    #1058566
    nfgo3
    Member

    Finally, there will be such a thing as free lunch.

    #1058567
    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    Hal,

    That is a really excellent question. Bli neder, I will try to ask someone, and then type up the answer.

    #1058568

    Ummm…

    #1058569
    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    ?

    #1058570

    ??

    #1058571
    hal
    Member

    the-art-of-moi: i’m looking forward to the answer 🙂

    ofcourse my answer is that when moshiach comes we do continue be able to earn reward. i don’t think we lose the yetzer hara right away, infact according to the Talmud we never completely lose the yetzer hara while in this world, even during the moshiach era, because the yetzer hara is an essential motivating factor for proper Torah study! it’s said it was created for the sake of learning. (a fascinating idea. the thing that drives us to sin needs to be directed towards driving us to accomplish in learning. after all isn’t there a bit of ego in wanting to know it all).

    #1058572
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    I had the same question as you guys! I emailed someone the question. As you can see, I was tired when I emailed her and so it came out wrong. Instead if saying that death represents the loss if our ability to do Mitzvos so that in turn, we will get reward, I said that death represents the end of our ability to get reward . Oh well, gam zu letova! Ok here’s what I emailed her:

    I’ve been struggling with this question for a while and it’s kind of hard to get down in writing, but I’ll try.

    Basically, why would any intelligent human being want Mashiach to come, if when he comes Hashem will take away our Yetzer hara and we’ll just do Mitzvos without any real effort, which means that we won’t get rewarded?

    Now at first glance, my question may seem selfish, but when you understand that our reward is connection to Hashem, it comes out better 🙂

    To me, Mashiach’s coming is like death. After death, we have no potential. That’s why death is feared: cuz it represents the end of our ability to get reward. If when Mashiach comes, there will be no potential, then how is it better than death?

    AND HERE IS HER REPLY:

    Hi,

    Thank you for your feedback and for your question. I don’t see it as a selfish question at all. I can see where it is coming from. It’s coming from a good place, a place of yearning for closeness, connection and positive growth. You want to keep moving but you’re worried that when moshiach comes you’ll be stuck in the same place and wont be able to grow.

    There is a lot we don’t know about the time of the coming of moshiach. I don’t know if you’ve heard this but there’s a quote that says, “Those who say don’t know and those who know don’t say.” Meaning-it is something hidden from us and those who talk about it as if they know, really don’t know and those who do know will not talk about it-because they are great enough and know that it cannot be revealed. Having said that, I probably shouldn’t say anything because…what do I know? and what can I say? 🙂

    But I’ll try to answer your question.

    Do we know that when Moshiach comes we will do mitzvos without any effort? What does the destruction of the yetzer hara mean to you? Does that mean we still won’t have bechira? Free will to choose between what is good and better? Will things be easy for us and we will not have any struggles at all? Does Moshiach’s arrival along with yetzer hara’s death mean that life will be all bliss? There are a lot of medroshim about the time of moshiach that are not meant to be taken literally yet when people talk about it, they translate it word-for-word as if this is exactly the way things will be. It wasn’t spelled out for a reason. Hashem put things down in allegorical fashion so that we won’t know what will be.

    We also don’t know what it means to be connected to Hashem from the spirituality of living with the bais Hamikdosh…watching the korbanos and everything going on with kohanim, leviyim, yomim tovim. Those times are meant to increase our awareness of Hashem and our connection to Him. So I’m not sure that Moshiach’s arrival will mean that we will lose or that our connection will decrease. If anything, I imagine these things will help our connection get stronger and better.

    There’s a small piece about moshiach in the middle of this post. Read it too. Perhaps you’ll find it helpful.

    Why is that how you define death? Physical death means a person is not alive in this world and cannot do any more actions to receive reward. However, spiritual death would be more scary to me. A person who lived his life properly and left a legacy or impacted other people can continue to reap rewards for the actions being done down here that he started, actions that were caused by the ripple effect-because of the actions during his lifetime. I don’t see death as an end to our ability to get reward. Once a person dies, they just begin to be rewarded for the good they have done down here and the good that continues to be done because of them. Death is only fearful because that is when a person can no longer do their own actions and impact other people to do positive actions. But there is still potential for reward after a person dies.

    I like when people think and ask. It says a lot about you that you care about your spirituality this much. Let me know what you think of this and if you still have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask!

    #1058573
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    Thank you for approving that post, mod! I know it was long. Sorry abt that.

    #1058575
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    All of us have heard, read & seen tons of true stories of people who had their first child at 42 or had a sick child in critical condition, & then the doctor says i’m very sorry but your daughter has only 3 hours to live & then he comes back 2 hours later & says its really a miracle but your child is beginning to recover etc…. Why is it that they finally had a child & the child recovered? There could be tons of answers, but the most common answer Is a Pasuk we say 3 times a day in Davening. Hashem is close to all who call to him, to all who call out truthfully. (Tehillim 145)Because they cried out from their heart, they really meant what they were saying when they davened to H-shem to have a baby or for his daughter to recover etc…. there’s a reason we call Hashem, Avinu She’bashamayim (our father in heaven) Hashem loves us from a father to a son & is waiting to put his Shchina (presence) & his bais hamikdosh back in this world. If we really cried out for the Bais Hamikdosh from our heart with truth & show that we are missing it, then we wouldn’t still be in Golus today.

    #1058576
    Rema711
    Member

    Sam Klein the real reason we are still in galus is cause the majority of Yidden are not frum in the world, it’s not just simple not having senseless hatred for a fellow jew, it is also that all Klal Yisrael has to observe the Torah and the 613 mitzvas for moshiach to come

    #1058577
    kj chusid
    Participant

    It’s

    Because of Israel that he hasn’t come

    #1058578
    Rema711
    Member

    kj chusid u are anti-Zionist aren’t u

    #1058579
    kj chusid
    Participant

    Y yes I am how did u guess

    #1058580
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    Kj…

    Ugh biting my tongue SO hard right now.

    Anyways. On a diff note, no one other than HaShem knows why we’re still stuck in Galus. But I would guess that it has something to do with the fact that there’s still sinas chinam…

    #1058581
    Rema711
    Member

    kj chusid it’s official Satmar belief

    #1058582
    showjoe
    Participant

    i want moshioch to come so that every single being, including me, completely and totally recognize HASHEMS complete and total malchus over everything

    #1058583
    kj chusid
    Participant

    @rema yes I know my own beiliefs and lg u know I have a point

    #1058585
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    the Sinas Chinam today in klal yisroel is worse then the level it was on at the time the second Bais hamikdosh was destroyed.

    So how can we expect mashiach to come with this major lowliness of BASELESS HATRED? you have any suggestion?

    when klal yisroel comes together as one nation-on all levels from frum to reform to Zionist etc…-& turn towards Hashem begging for teshuva to be accepted (like in the story of purim) then mashaich will come.

    UNTIL THEN: we will just have to continue waiting & watching the tzaros in klal yisroel grow r”l

    in just the last month of January 2015 klal yisroel lost 9 young children & infants together with 8 gedolei hador. is this not shocking, tragic & horrific? is this not enough to give us the wake-up message to do teshuva?

    hope we wake up very soon

    #1058587

    I’m sure this was said already in the post, but three concept of davening for moshiach to relive Hashem’s tzar its straight out of Nefesh HaChaim, among others. Its not exactly kefirah. Of course we all have personal reasons also. By the way,al pi derech hateva we are rugged. And I mean DEAD DEAD DEAD. Iran is coming out with nuclear bombs to wipe Israel off the map, Europe is on a daily basis becoming less and less of a viable option for a continued Jewish presence, America is becoming more anti semetic constantly, and the Arabs who want us dead have us out numbered 100 to 1 (a conservative number, 1.4 billion to 14 million). This should be of comfort for those who want a guarantee that he is coming soon, Am Yisrael will never disappear, and moshiach is fast becoming the only realistic option. Strange how our impending destruction is a source of solace.

    #1058588
    Rema711
    Member

    yayin yashan bkli chadash the problem is the fried yidden don’t realize the truth of the reality we are facing

    #1058589
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    YYBC, beautiful post!

    Sam, please stop with the propaganda! It’s ridiculous for you to say that the level of sinas chinam present in today’s generation is worse than it was at the time of the Bais Hamikdash’s destruction.

    1. You weren’t there when the BHMK was destroyed.

    2. I doubt that it is worse. I can’t see the story of Bar Kamtza happening in today’s generation.

    #1058590
    Rema711
    Member

    Letakein Girl I am glad u are speaking ur mind

    #1058591
    showjoe
    Participant

    Letakein Girl: chazal say that “Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times” (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a)

    so if you want to say that the reason why the B”M is not yet built is because of sinas chinam, than sams point, as scary as it seems, would seem to be correct.

    #1058592
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    Me too.

    (?)

    #1058593
    kj chusid
    Participant

    Yybc there are 1.4 billion. Muslims in the world not Arabs please get ur

    Facts right

    #1058594
    Rema711
    Member

    kj chusid the Muslims hate the jews

    #1058595
    kj chusid
    Participant

    That’s not true you think bangledeshis have anything against you? And besides most anti semitism from Muslims is due to zionism

    #1058597

    Being as we are not turning this into a zionist/anti zionist thread, we will pretend that we didn’t see that last comment.

    #1058598

    I want to get all my matnas kehuna already!

    #1058599
    a mamin
    Participant

    I want to see an end to all tzoris in Klal Yisroel! I would like to see real Achdus in Klal Yisroel, no sinas chinam!

    #1058600
    Rema711
    Member

    YYBC so true, kj chusid here is what Martin Luther King Jr. said about anti-Zionism it is just another way to be an anti-Semite

    #1058602
    kj chusid
    Participant

    So I’m an anti Semite interesting

    #1058603
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    A self hating jew would be the correct term…

    #1058604
    a mamin
    Participant

    LG: I may not agree with KJ chusid, but I wouldn’t call him a self hating Jew??? If someone is anti-zionist does not call for them to be referred to as a self hating Jew!

    #1058605
    kj chusid
    Participant

    U see the thing zionists hate most is frum people that oppose them because u can’t call us anti Semites lol

    #1058606

    Can we PLEASE not turn this into a zionist/anti-zionist/anti anti-zionist thread? We all serve the same Ribbono Shel Olam, and this conversation is for gedolim, not for us. Anyone worthy of weighing in on the issue is not posting on the CR.

    #1058607
    Rema711
    Member

    kj chusid anti-Semites use the anti-Zionist curb to advance their agenda, so u being anti-Zionist just adds fuel to the fire

    #1058608
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    You’re right, a maamin. I’m sorry kj, that was a rather horrible joke…

    🙁

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