why does wearing a white shirt make you more frum in the yeshivish world

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  • #1684153

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    It doesnt make anyone buchur or yungermann more or less frum. Someone somewhere in his infinite wisdom to institute white and black and that’s whats stuck.
    In some of the major yeshivas , colored shirts were still worn in the begining of the 90’s and slowly became something of the past

    #1684154

    Nechomah
    Participant

    I believe that Mitsykins said it best and most accurately. This is the primary reason that I’ve always heard.

    #1684155

    chasid
    Participant

    Wearing simple clothing means you do not need to spend time worrying about how this colored shirt looks on you vs another. It allows one to focus on what’s inside vs the outside. In Chabad chasidus lingo: pnimiyus vs chitzoniyus.
    In Chabad it used to be acceptable to wear colored shirts, because it was assumed that bochurim we’re penimiyus and didn’t care either way. That has changed, and all yeshivas bow require white shirts.

    #1684156

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Its actuallly assur l’hallacha for a talmid chochom to walk around with soiled clothing

    #1684211

    Joseph
    Participant

    Doesn’t Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim still allow its bochorim to wear colored shirts in its branches outside NY?

    #1684212

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Spilling something on your clothes is a normal every day occurance, It happens every day. A drink accidently spills on you, you drop some food on your shirt. You are not changing your clothing because you accidently spilled some tomato sauce on your shirt at lunch. You wipe it off as best you can, but its still leaves a more of a mark on a white shirt than a colored one

    #1684214

    Joseph
    Participant

    The comparison of a dirty white shirt or it being untucked versus a clean tucked in colored shirt is a false dichotomy. That would be like comparing wearing dirty pants versus wearing no pants. The answer isn’t to wear no pants. The answer is to make sure your pants and white shirt are clean and tucked in.

    #1684217

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    chasidParticipant

    Wearing simple clothing means you do not need to spend time worrying about how this colored shirt looks on you vs another. It allows one to focus on what’s inside vs the outside. In Chabad chasidus lingo: pnimiyus vs chitzoniyus.
    In Chabad it used to be acceptable to wear colored shirts, because it was assumed that bochurim we’re penimiyus and didn’t care either way. That has changed, and all yeshivas bow require white shirts.
    —————————–+————
    With your line of thinking why not just dress in one colir throughout.all blue, all white , all black all brown and to make it even easier , institute a dress code of a full blown wrap.
    No pockets to hide stuff no issue with tznius length by women. Why bother with black and white?

    #1684227

    Mam
    Participant

    Convince yourself. Some people would rather “go to the death” defending the silliest things rather than face the cognitive dissonance of something they do.

    #1684228

    ftresi
    Participant

    The answer is simple. White shirts are part of the uniform of what has become a religion of external appearances. How very sad! What are people concerned with when looking at potential shidduchim? Be honest. To drive my point home I know someone whose regular attire was jeans and t shirts. Certainly nothing close to yeshivish attire. But he is such a huge Talmid chochom that the regular magid shiur has him give the daf yomi shiur when he’s away.

    And if someone wears what’s now called business casual? By modern standards that’s a very clean put together look. Wearing a white shirt is not the only way to look well dressed and refined.

    #1684240

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    White is the uniform, but it should be changed for cleanliness and modesty related reasons.

    #1684307

    Nechomah
    Participant

    ZD – I think either you need to wear a big or learn to eat over your plate. I don’t know too many grown men who have such problems keeping their shirts clean. My sons certainly don’t.

    #1684297

    I will present a plausible biyur about yeshivish men wearing white shirts –

    B’hekdem, a kasha, why is this minhag not applicable to yeshivish women? In other words, if there is some maalah in wearing a white (such as “simplicity” or “purity” etc), wouldn’t this maalah apply also to women?!

    Therefore, one MUST say that the maalah of white is a maalah EXCLUSIVE to males!

    Now we know that a halachic beged (clothing discussed in Torah) are associated with a positive and negative mitzva: Tzitsis and Shatnez. Although shatnes applies equally to male and female, tzitsis is a levush ish exclusively (to the point that Targum Yonoson on issur of Lo Yilbash gives an example of the issur for a woman to wear male clothes: to wear teffilin or tzitsis!).

    Tzitisis are described as LOVON and Tcheles. Today, we no longer have the tcheles according to major poskim. We only have the LOVON.

    As such, when a male chooses a beged elyon to wear, it is appropriate that he choose one that is LOVON – hence the WHITE shirt for men (exclusively).

    (Those who ear blue shirts must ask themselves how they hold about tcheles…)

    And that is chidush and lomdo. Thank you for allowing me to be marbitz it.

    P.S. I am not c”v disparaging anyone who wears other color shirts but sharing an insight to the maalah of LOVON for a beged.

    #1684296

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ask yourself the question: Am I dressed in a very specifically Jewish way — in a manner that non-Jews don’t dress and that virtually anyone seeing me will immediately know that I’m Jewish?

    If the answer is no, you need to do some soul searching.

    #1684263

    Henoch 123
    Participant

    It is ironic that the introduction of suits, white shirts, and hats was actually an attempt by the mussar movement to bring a modernizing attitude to the yeshiva world. In the mid 19th century most yeshiva students dressed like low class folk and were treated that way. When R Yisroel Salanter visited Western Europe, he introduced the idea that yeshiva bachurim should dress in the most dignified way possible. This meant copying lawyers, bankers, and rich businessman.

    #1684243

    Geordie613
    Participant

    A white shirt is no more or less frum than any other colour. It’s a symbol of where you belong or where you want to belong.
    Is a knitted kappel or a rimless one or leather etc any more or less frum than a black rimmed kappel? No. But it is a symbol of where you are in your yiddishkeit. Yerushalmim wear knitted kappels, and they are very frum.
    I would say he same argument for white shirts.

    #1684237

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Go walk around in a yeshiva, Unfortunatly not everyone is such refind person, you will see plenty of bochrim with “Unwhite” White shirts or shirts not tucked in

    #1684328

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Convince yourself. Some people would rather “go to the death” defending the silliest things rather than face the cognitive dissonance of something they do.

    Proved your point 🤣🤣🤣🤣

    #1684330

    1
    Participant

    Business casual extends to chinos and even jeans.

    #1684344

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Joseph, it is wrong of you to look down on those who don’t wear chai necklaces or magen daved.

    #1684348

    “A white shirt is no more or less frum than any other colour.”

    If I may be blunt and clear without knocking anyone:

    Would you agree that the standard of “Frum” at it’s highest humanly possible perfection would be the conduct of Gedolei Yisroel, the greatest among our Rosh Yeshivos and Poskim?

    Do these Gedolim wear shirts that are white or shirts of other colors?

    Case closed! So yes, a white shirt is dressing the way the frum Godol dresses (and in contrast, a colored shirt is what the frum Godol would never wear),and to repeat, the standard of Frum is set by the conduct of the Godol.

    (BTW these Gedolim that only wear white shirts do not c”v conform to “our” (or anyone else’s) standards, rather, they are the ones that set the standards and it is we that try our best to emulate them).

    #1684399

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The world needs white shirt wearers and the world needs denim wearers.

    #1684392

    Chosid – “In Chabad it used to be acceptable to wear colored shirts, because it was assumed that bochurim we’re penimiyus and didn’t care either way. ”

    I don’t believe there is any picture of a Rebbe, Rosh Yeshiva or Rav in Chabad that wore a colored shirt.

    Bochurim in Russia, where getting food was a challenge due to poverty or in the USA during Depression would wear whatever shirt they could financially get their hands on. It’s not likethey were shopping in Macy’s or Woolworth and picked the blue or gray designer shirts over the white ones (with French Cuffs – no less).

    The same probably applied to all bochurim in both the Old Country (Hungary, Lita, Poland etc) and in America.

    The term “penimiyus” vs “chitzoniyus” is misused when applied to clothing, shaving, peyos etc. (reminds me of the non-observant Jew that claims he is a Jew “at heart” – a pnimi!).

    A chitzon is someone that does mitzvos only “on the outside” without “internalizing” (in pnimiyus) that he is connecting to Hashem and doing His rotzon.

    The conduct and behavior of a chitzon and a pnimi are basically identical except when qualifying the impact of the conduct on the individual.

    #1684402

    funnybone
    Participant

    White shirts do not mean one is more frum. Where did OP get that concept from? It is a statement that one considers himself yeshivish. Part of the yeshiva world.
    Imagine as if they were wearing baseball jerseys wi th the word yeshivish on the back.
    Are there YU talmidei chachomim? Of course!
    Compare it to wearing a kippah seruga in EY.

    #1684494

    justme22
    Participant

    “The comparison of a dirty white shirt or it being untucked versus a clean tucked in colored shirt is a false dichotomy“
    This is true, however it sad to see that people loose the objective and get caught up with a rule of wearing white.
    Many guys would never wear color shirts and proudly go with their shirts untuck and I get your point that doesn’t take away the credit of white shirts but it does take away any gain for those guys if not even making it worse.

    On a different note why do we wear suits on Shabbos if goyim wear them to? And don’t goyim also sometimes wear white shirts. I’m wondering if that’s really at all the purpose of wearing white shirts..

    I do believe that is more of a psychological thing to get people to feel like the ideal the yeshiva is trying to teach
    When one wears a uniform one feels like part of the peiolebin that uniform.. renting a convertible makes one feel one way for example

    Some people just despite having to look the same than anyone else and be comfortable in what one wears can help some serve G-d better

    #1684500

    justme22
    Participant

    Some who claim that just white makes it life simpler not having to look for the nicer color shirt. One can see in yeshivos plenty of time and money consumed in finding the nicest white shirt. A uniform would better help with that.
    Why aren’t woman required to wear all white shirts if it’s because we can’t look like goyim or bcs of simplicity
    I think the Amish do that if I’m not mistaken

    #1684518

    too geshmak
    Participant

    There was no big meeting amongst the yeshivos where they decided to require white shirts. This is a situation that has evolved over time. Our gedolim from Europe who came to America all wore white and this has slowly trickled down. Now we are where we are and a boy who is on yeshiva is making a statement by wearing colored. A statement that he doesn’t want to be part of this community. There is nothing inherently wrong with blue. There are many communities in Klal Yisroel and many of them have some sort of exterior “levush”. If someone finds themselves moving towards MO they may put on a suede kippah, if someone starts relating towards a more chasidish life they may start wearing a bekiche, mizrachi, a kippa seruga and these are all modes of dress that have evolved over time.

    #1684505

    justme22
    Participant

    /goldenpupik – if it was to look like a gadol anything less than a full suit and tie would not suffice.

    #1684654

    amosak
    Participant

    Sish, several years ago there was a Russian film festival in New York where they showed a silent film made in Russia in the 1920’s about Tsar Nicholas and Rasputin. The Tsar was wearing a shtraimel and kapata that would have fit in at any shteibel. So please don’t tell me that the Russian nobility didn’t wear such clothes, since you clearly don’t know what you are talking about.

    #1684666

    Joseph
    Participant

    amosak: That is factually a falsehood. Your story has no truth to it.

    #1684678

    amosak
    Participant

    Joseph, it is really lacking in Derech Eretz to call someone a liar. I have never told a falsehood in my life. You should beg Mechilah. My story is the absolute truth!

    #1684687

    Joseph
    Participant

    amosak: How else should I or anyone else point out a falsehood, other than calling it a falsehood? It would lack derech eretz to allow a falsehood to remain unchallenged.

    #1684770

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Amosak, I have to agree with Joseph. If anyone is an expert on purveying ” facts ” from some alternative universe, it’s him.

    #1684814

    jdb
    Participant

    The way we dress indicates the community we belong to. Some communities value conformity to a common core of values. Conformity in dress is taken as indicative of the broader shared value system.

    That said, in today’s day and age, non-conformity to a mode of dress does not mean that one doesn’t have equal or even stronger emunah or avodas hashem. And conforming to the dress code doesn’t mean that you aspire to the broader value system. For adults, this is often a social indicator of belonging to not belonging to the community. For teens who were born and raised in the system, changing from a white shirt to something else can mean a rejection of the community.

    #1685203

    amosak
    Participant

    Joseph, you are certainly entitled to your OPINION, but that doesn’t change the FACT that I saw on PBS TV a black and white film from Russia, filmed in the 1920s, that showed Tsar Nicholas wearing a shraimel and kappatah! It also doesn’t entitle you to call me a liar! You have no idea who or what I am, but I think if we were talking face to face, you would feel the need to show a lot more kavod.

    #1685208

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think if we were talking face to face, you would feel the need to show a lot more kavod.

    Over here, we’re judged by our words.

    #1685211

    amosak
    Participant

    Silly me… I thought we were judged by the Ribono Shel Olam

    #1685213

    The Alter
    Participant

    Slabodka argued that unless they started wearing clothes that were not kovod habriyos the bochorim should dress like the university students. if anyone is interested in this just look at old photos or speak to any chofetz chiam rebbe.

    #1685216

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Silly me… I thought we were judged by the Ribono Shel Olam

    Then why would you think that if Joseph would meet you face to face he would judge you as someone worthy of kavod?

    #1685221

    The Alter
    Participant

    comment if you think this was a good topic. (i made it)

    #1685223

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Im not here to defend Joseph, but Czar Nicholas II was executed by the Bolshevicks in 1918. It was impossible to shoot pictures of the Czar in the 1920;s, he was already dead

    #1685224

    amosak
    Participant

    Then why would you think that if Joseph would meet you face to face he would judge you as someone worthy of kavod?

    You don’t know who I am, what I do, or anything about me. I could be a gadol or an am ha’aret. But Joseph feels that it’s OK to call me a liar. If he saw me face to face, he would realize that I am old enough to be his zeidi. Having reached the age of Seiva, he has an obligation to stand in my presence.

    #1685225

    Joseph
    Participant

    ” I saw on PBS TV a black and white film from Russia, filmed in the 1920s, that showed Tsar Nicholas wearing a shraimel and kappatah!”

    Kid, you clearly have no idea what a shtraimel and kappatah look like, if you think the shmattas Nicholas was wearing was that.

    #1685233

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But Joseph feels that it’s OK to call me a liar. If he saw me face to face, he would realize that I am old enough to be his zeidi.

    How would he realize? Only Hashem knows how old you are.

    #1685237

    The Alter
    Participant

    will you guys stop with all this low self esteem caused bickering.

    #1685272

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If I hired a plumber and he showed up wearing a white shirt, I would not be comfortable with that.

    #1685392

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    February 22, 2019 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm
    #1683851
    Reply
    Heargod

    “”A talmud chuchum should always dress nicely to represent the the Torah and make a kidush hashem.””

    We are discussing young buchurim, not seasoned or certified talmedei chachamim

    “”Appearances do make a difference, dressing well shows u r doing something important. People around u will take notice and watch, which will give u an opertunity to impress how the Torah makes u a mench.””

    If you are ok with dressing well,so why come and make rediculous statements about color. Just dress well and the tora will eminate regardless because u are a ben tora who dresses nice and clean.We are taught all our lives NOT to bring attention to ourselves and not to cause people to take notice. The torah makes a person a mentch regardles of what they wear or not.

    #1687470

    pilots dress the way they dress for the convenience of others so they can recognize them faster from further away

    That may be true but its not the main reason for the uniform. The reason is so the pilots act professionally in the cockpit. If a pilot is using his pilots license to fly free in the jumpseat for another airline, they will not let him in the cockpit unless he is wearing business clothes.
    Why? He does not even fly for that airline.
    The reason is simple. Airlines know that if someone in the cockpit is wearing shorts and a t-shirt, it will negatively affect the atmosphere in the cockpit. Since airlines require professionalism, all people in the cockpit, part of the crew or not, must be dressed appropriately.
    Same thing in the courtroom. Imagine if the judge and lawyers were wearing t-shirts.

    Its the same with us. If everyone is wearing colored shirts in the beis medrash, it affects the learning atmosphere. When people wear white shirts, there is a greater degree of seriousness. White shirts are the uniform of a yeshiva bochur/avreich. If you wear one outside the beis medrash, people will respect you as a yeshiva bochur/avreich.

    #1687644

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ding-aling-aling-aling!! Captain172 beautifully explained why Yidden need to wear a Yiddishe uniform.

    Thank you!

    #1687665

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Wearing white shirts creates an environment that lacks modesty and negatively affects learning.

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