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On Friday night, I went to daven in a shul in an area that I am considering moving to next year. We were eating by a new friend from that area, so we davened where they daven; by the local “yeshivish” shul.
So I walk in late during kabbalas shabbos, and go stand in the side beis medrash which opens into the main shul, so that I can talk. And I stand there and talk with someone I know (I knew like 4 people there). We were whispering very quietly, and I am certain they could not hear us in the shul.
So there is this fellow who is sitting by the table and learning or davening–I dunno which. And after several minutes, he comes over, and motions his hands like a siddur at me.
Now, I am here to meet new people. So I make a big smile, and stick out my hand and say sholom aleichem. And he says, “maybe you should daven?” And I say hello, what is your name. And he tells me it is because he cares that he is giving me tochacha. So I say, my name is popa, what is your name? So he tells me his name and that maybe I should daven.
So I told him that maybe when he meets a new person in shul, he should say sholom aleichem and what is your name and are you visiting, before he gives them tochacha.
But I’m still frum anyway, because I’m not a retard and I don’t think that being frum means I think every frum person is not socially awkward and is nice. Nor every frum community–some of them are real jerks, and that is ok.
I’m confused now. Are you a retard or not?
And btw, I mean sholom aleichem, I mean a gutt voch (I’m not giving you my name here) when did you daven?
Pfffffft. Good one popa ;). I approve of your easygoing attitude. I still want to know if that other article was true. (the link to Matzav that was posted for a few minutes before being removed). Your “story” is still much less disturbing than his.
:). It’s because they’re so jealous of your celebrated status…they have to find some way to put you down…except it just makes you more popular :P.
Interesting that Zahavasdad hasnt declared this thread a troll…
But I’m still frum anyway, because I’m not a retard and I don’t think that being frum means I think every frum person is not socially awkward and is nice. Nor every frum community–some of them are real jerks, and that is ok.
Great point and well delivered.
Popa
Good point. I was thinking along these lines. It gets on my nerves that people blame going off the derech because some random person or people weren’t as nice or friendly as they should have been. (Im not referring to people who were physically emotionally or sexually abused as that is very different.) So let me get this straight you dont know me, you see me at random and decide to curse me out because you dont like my face so I should no take off my Yarmulka and drop it down the sewer? Great logic in that no?
It’s an interesting point but it’s also a straw man. When people say that they went off the derech because of the way that frum people behave, it’s often in reference to more endemic or widespread behavior; or behavior that is sanctioned by rabbonim. Just as an example, at my parents’ shul, there is a sign that says “If you think you might talk during davening, choose a different shul.” So I chose a different shul. I’m sure they’re very proud of themselves, but my parents aren’t thrilled that I’m not allowed to daven in their shul. And at some point it becomes reasonable to judge frumkeit by those who determine what frumkeit is.
I know people who are OTD b/c their father davened in a shul where people who were socially astute came to shul and didn’t daven; rather they stood in the hall and shmoozed. When the kids grew up they didn’t want to go to shul anymore.
Really, funnybone? They were going to be frum but they couldn’t find a shul where people were quiet enough? That sounds somewhat implausible.
Velts Meshugener, indeed, one is not allowed to talk during davening. You may not bend the Torah to suit your desires.
I can’t say that they were going to be frum, but they didn’t get a feel for coming to shul and talking to G-d, when others feel that talking to their friends is more important.
In that case, we are all off the derech anyway so we shouldn’t care that Popa heroically pretends to be frum. And to people who literally never talk during davening, that is irrelevant and if you want to express it, do it in some manner that doesn’t respond to my point. But if you are a reasonable person, you understand that while it may be against halacha* to talk during davening, there are also other concerns with putting up a sign that says that people are not welcome in your shul. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
*Also, be careful about making up halacha, which is arguably more assur than talking during shul. Almost all mention in halacha about talking during davening refers to talking during actual davening. Almost none of it talks about Kabbolas Shabbos.
I’m not talking about halacha. I’m talking about showing respect to G-d’s home. Showing that you care about talking to G-d (a.k.a. davening). Showing that davening is an important and integral part of your life. And last but not least, showing that it’s important to you that people who come to shul to daven (with or without their children) deserve your respect by not shmoozing in shul or in the hallway.
VM, Who said Popa is not Frum?
Let’s ask him.
Popa are you frum?
What was wrong with the man saying “maybe you should
daven”? It was a shul, not a fish market after all.
if you talk in shul – where do you daven?
VM, what do you mean by talking in shul? Are you referring to times when it is bedieved permissible?
If you sleep in your bedroom, where do you put on your pants?
Some say it is not permissible at all if it’s just a schmooze.
I’m talking about times where there is not much halacha, if any, about it. Like during Kabolas Shabbos.
Also, people need to be aware that there can be conflicting ideals; even when one ideal is clear and the other is nebulous. “Frummer” is not always better. In some (many? most?) situations, it might make more sense to not be medakdek k’chut hasaarah on a minhag tov even if it’s written in hilchos beis hakneses; if it means making people uncomfortable.
You can even make the argument that it’s a mitzvah to talk during kabbalas Shabbos to show that it is not part of davening, which is why most Nusach Ashkenaz shuls have the chazzan by the bimah and not the amud.
And it is assur to talk in a shul, but not in a beis medrash and most shuls today are classified as batei midrashim.
Thank you, Truthsharer I will be sure to make that argument in the future. In fact, I will go to Kabbolas Shabbos just so I can make that argument, loudly.
VM: 1. Most guys won’t take such a sign literally. Although they could have written it more politely, most guys wouldn’t take it seriously enough. (I know, I’m generalizing.)
2. It’s not a matter of not offending one guy and having some whispering, in Shuls where talking is ignored it eventually escalates to not a fish market but a chicken market. I’ve been to shuls where when there is a simcha the women’s gallery literally sounds like one -even during leining.
Emphasizing no talking is a necessity for a shul to remain a place of davening.
Could be some shuls take davening seriously.
Could be you just happened to meet someone who had a terrible week and wanted to reconnect with HaShem, your interference was maybe disturbing him.
Could be you just happened to meet up with a blunt person. There are plenty of them, everywhere.
Rabbi: you walk an hour to shul, you should at least daven!
Congregant: Daven?! I can do that at home.
VM:
“I’m talking about times where there is not much halacha, if any, about it. Like during Kabolas Shabbos.”
While it is true that there in nothing li’halacha wrong with talking during kabbalas Shabbos, it still isn’t very nice to the people who are trying to daven. You can always talk outside.
“Also, people need to be aware that there can be conflicting ideals; even when one ideal is clear and the other is nebulous. “Frummer” is not always better. In some (many? most?) situations, it might make more sense to not be medakdek k’chut hasaarah on a minhag tov even if it’s written in hilchos beis hakneses; if it means making people uncomfortable.”
That is 100% true, but it (like pretty much everything) can’t be applied everywhere. I cannot force my chumra upon you, but I also don’t have to be meikel where I don’t want to so that every last person in the world feels comfortable in my shul. Different shuls (and schools) are catered to different crowds; they do not have to compromise on their standards for other people’s sake.
I am still frum because even though the director of my program was really mean to me by accepting me into this program and then telling me to leave because I can’t afford to pay off such a high amount of money before the end of the year (12,000 dollars), my friends and other people still donated money towards my tuition, and I know that I am planning on coming back to Israel at the end of august.
I’m talking about times where there is not much halacha, if any, about it. Like during Kabolas Shabbos.
Also, people need to be aware that there can be conflicting ideals; even when one ideal is clear and the other is nebulous. “Frummer” is not always better. In some (many? most?) situations, it might make more sense to not be medakdek k’chut hasaarah on a minhag tov even if it’s written in hilchos beis hakneses; if it means making people uncomfortable.
Everyone, VM explained himself.
You know what bothers me? When people say Tehilim during Shema and Chazaras Hashatz. I hope this only happens in the ladies’ section.
I am still frum because even though the director of my program was really mean to me by accepting me into this program and then telling me to leave because I can’t afford to pay off such a high amount of money before the end of the year (12,000 dollars), my friends and other people still donated money towards my tuition, and I know that I am planning on coming back to Israel at the end of august.
I dont mean to defend the director, but its not so simple. Unfortunatly there are bills to pay. Salaries need to be paid, Utitlities have to be paid, Maintainace has to be paid. They cannot easily give scholoships. Most US universites have endowments that do pay for some scholoships, I dont think many if any Yeshivas, seminaries other similar have endowments.
I suspect he might have come out mean, but he really was facing reality
But then they never should have accepted me because they told me during my interview that I could go into debt, and then they backed down on their word.
Unfortunatly lost of people lie to the tutiton committees in order to get discounts or scholarships.
Also it could be the admission interview people are not the same ones who work for financial department.
You know what bothers me? When people say Tehilim during Shema and Chazaras Hashatz. I hope this only happens in the ladies’ section.
I’ve never seen it.
they told me during my interview that I could go into debt
I’m not sure what that means. Does that mean you would owe them the money? If so, how are they backing down on their word?
I am still frum even though at one point in my life my classmates were mean to me and my teacher was an appikores. She told our class that she doesn’t know why it’s important to learn hilchos hafrashas challah since moshiach isn’t coming anyhow… and this is in a chareidi school. I wasn’t sure if I believed in Hashem or not, but I kept all the mitzvos because why do something before I’m sure? After a lot of thinking and reading I came to the conclusion that Hashem is real, and therefore I worked on getting the best relationship with him. I davened to make friends and guess what? Instead of being stuck miserable for the rest of my life pretending that there can’t be a g-d because gods are supposed to do what I want I actually ended up happy. Ironically I found out that there was a mathematician called Pascal that had the same reasoning that I had to begin with.
Gamanit; I don’t want to be too much of a devil’s advocate here, but if you had learned, say, hilchos lashon hara or tefillah instead, you’d be using them already for years; whereas in a best case scenario, you’d be able to use hilchos hafrashas challah for the very first time sometime later today.
Basically, the people I interviewed with are also the financial department, program director, person who forms the schedule, maintains overall order in the program. The person who does all of those things was told by me and by a number of other people before and after the interview, that I would need to pay it off after graduating college. They said that they understood that. Then, last week, they told me that I need to pay it now. Then today, they said that I need to leave because I was not able to come up with $12,000 by today for the remainder of my tuition.
You mean to tell us, you were told to come up with $12,000 Today or they would kick you out of the Seminary IN ISRAEL?
Basically throwing out on the street in a foreign country?
If I understand this correctly, there is no excuse for that and I have nothing to say
poppa mentioned he shmussed outside of sanctuary where tfile was taking place so nothing wrong . U have taine why he didnt daven…poppa didnt mention he went there to daven
Velts meshugener.Talking in beth medrish is halacha assur, even shelo bishass tfilla.Now we all shmuss, that doesnt cancel the halacha. so if this shull enforce the halacha they are in the right.What do u want, they should ignore the halacha because it will turn off people from the torah, so let it be……’Ein oimrim leadom chet bishvil sheyiska chavairoch’
snowbunny, did they kick you out of the dorms? Do you have somewhere to stay?
pba- no
Snowbunny, if they did kick you out of the dorms, do you have cash until you are able to leave the country.
Pba, yes, as well as your real name, address, cell # and email address.
I have to leave by the 17th. I have cash, but I am not supposed to spend it (although spending some will be inevitable…). I mean, if I can leave the dorms before then and stay somewhere else, that would be nice. I have to cash some checks in order to pay them back some of the debt.
Popa, of course it is. Didn’t you ever learn? Right after the ABCs is CR=Inquisition. And I WAS kidding but you could answer me if you would like :D.
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