Why the inequality??

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  • #595956

    tro11
    Member

    I have heard that men and women are not equal in Judaism, but both play different and very important role. But it still bothers me. I have heard that the woman don’t need to wear kippa, tzitzit, or have brit milah because they are born on a higher spiritual level than men. Why?? Why should they be born closer to Hashem? Why should women in Judaism be better off than men?

    #753875

    deiyezooger
    Member

    A woman is by nature more emotional/spiritual so there is a closeness to hashem, a man on the other hand needs action to make him think thats why he needs to actively do mitzvas to bring him close to hashem.

    #753876

    tro11
    Member

    That’s my whole point!!! Why is the religion so discriminatory against men!?

    #753877

    eclipse
    Member

    First time I heard that complaint!

    #753878

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Emotional/spiritual?

    #753879

    Why is a tree not a cow? Why the inequality??

    #753880

    tro11
    Member

    I guess the spiritual inequality causes an emotional feeling of injustice.

    #753881

    tro11
    Member

    “Why is a tree not a cow? Why the inequality??”

    That’s different – a tree is not a cow. But men and women are both human beings and should be treated equally. Would you use your argument to justify discrimination against African Americans or Mexicans?

    #753882

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I agree with tro11. I think the whole ‘women are closer to Hashem’ thing was said by people to justify Judaism against attacks by feminism, but they cut off their nose to spite their face (I’m sure there’s a more appropriate adage I just can’t think of it). Either way I don’t believe it.

    #753883

    aries2756
    Participant

    Because Hashem created men and women differently and he gave each their own set of mitzvos pertaining to their gender as well as mitzvos for ALL to follow. The mitzvos he gave each gender pertain to their particular weaknesses and strengths and what HE made them capable of. Why do women bare the children and the men never have to feel the pain of childbirth? Because of Chava’s sin. With that comes a whole set of mitzvos pertaining only to women. Men have the mitzvo of bris and that is obviously something women can’t do.

    Judaism did not separate the genders Hashem did, and the laws he gave us are designed to serve HIM to the best of OUR abilities.

    #753884

    seeallsides
    Participant

    why should it bother you that men have different roles than women? They are both human beings, but they each have their specific role. What exactly bothers you? Wouldn’t a woman putting on tzitzit be almost absurd if that was not her intended role?

    #753885

    hudi
    Participant

    Men and women are so different that discrimination shouldn’t even be an issue. Men have certain roles to perform in the world and women have their role to perform. Men have extra mitzvos that women don’t and women have mitzvos that men don’t have.

    It’s not inequality if it’s impossible for the two sides to be equal.

    #753886

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    I think I’m getting a nevuah….. I see this topic being closed veeeery soon.

    #753887

    Grandmaster
    Member

    Ctrl Alt: Are you sure it is a nevuah and not a cholem?

    #753888

    oomis
    Participant

    The topic was started by a TROLL. What’s better and apple or an orange? I could make a case for each. Men are not better than women, women are not better than men. We are each designed and assigned for differing roles in life. Women need fewer mitzvos than their male counterparts, to attain the same level of kedusha as men, because THAT IS HOW HASHEM DECIDED IT SHOULD BE. There is no need for argument about this, it is what it is. As a woman, when I say She-asani Kirtzono each day, I really mean it.

    #753889

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If you would be a Chacham rather than a Navi, you would 1gnore a troll.

    #753890

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s different – a tree is not a cow. But men and women are both human beings and should be treated equally.

    I think trees and cows are the same because they’re both organic.

    #753891

    observanteen
    Member

    Ever read “Animal Farm” by George Orwell? He wrote, “All men are equal. Some are more equal than others.” That’s life!

    #753892

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The topic was started by a TROLL.

    Good point.

    All men are equal.

    And all women are Splenda?

    #753893

    m in Israel
    Member

    Perhaps it bothers you because you have bought into the beautiful sounding but totally false notion that “all men (and women) are created equal”. Although it is true that we have a responsibility to respect every individual as being created in the image of Hashem, people are not created equally. Some are smart, some are not, some are beautiful, some the reverse, some are strong, talented, rich, etc. Even from a spiritual perspective, some people are born into a frum family, some are not, some receive good chinuch, some don’t — the point is that we believe each person has a role in this world, and Hashem puts you in the situation you need to be in to accomplish that role. Part of the profile is whether you are a male or female. Men and women are different biologically, and in many other ways as well, and Hashem, who created us this way mapped out the path each gender must take to fulfill his will and hopefully achieve an eternity of dveikus bahashem!

    This is not a contest as to which gender is “more spiritual”, and “more spirituality” is not even the goal! The goal is to do what Hashem wants from you, and to believe that you are created in the way that fits your role. (Just as you should theoretically believe when coming across someone with more of any other desirable quality.)

    Bottom line, this isn’t about how anyone is “treated” — it’s about each individual doing what they have to do. (And yes, I would use this argument in non-spiritual things as well. Do we say it’s not fair that some people get to be lawyers and make lots of money while some flip burgers for minimum wage, let’s take turns and give everyone a chance to be a doctor, lawyer, etc.? After all, how can you discriminate against someone who may have been born with less of a particular skill?)

    #753894

    Eizena Kup
    Member

    There are no extra mitzvos for women over men.

    Also I don’t think a woman attains the same Kedusha as a man doing mitzvos, learning Torah, its just not her Tafkid. Kedusha attained through mitzvos can only be done doing them – ??? ????? ???????. Also ???? ?? ???? ???????. That why men say ??? ???? ??? the privilege to do mitzvos. A lady doesn’t say ??? ???? ???! Just ????? ?????? to do Ratzon HaShem. Just as men don’t have child rearing pains and tribulations, women don’t have, and cannot understand nisyonos and temptations a man has. That is Kedusha – ??? ???? – ???? ?????. So while it’s easier for a woman to fulfill her role and MOST DO – a man who fulfills his tafkid, ????, ????, ????? ????? – that is truly rewarding.

    #753895

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    Dont be such a grouch. We already have a grouch thread!! 🙂

    Yes women have it ‘easier’ to attain a high level of kedusha as you say. But how many men do you know who would rather be a woman, busy at home and with all the responsibilities that goes with that. I know plenty women who would prefer the much more ‘exciting’ life of a man, especially at times like purim, simchas torah, in fact every shabbos and yomtov even for the litvish and esp for the chassidish, but overall really for every man every day of the year with minyanim, aliyos, socialising etc. Most women by comparison have a quieter, duller life. So yes a man has it harder but more enjoyable and women are higher without the wonderful things that make a man shteig.

    #753896

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    All things being equal, women get to keep all their body parts after birth 🙂

    #753897

    not I
    Member

    Women need that extra boost of kedusha that they are born with. They wouldn’t be able to survive spiritually with out it. Think about if a man would be able to make it with out going to minyan for 25 yrs in their life. A woman generaly doesn’t go to shul when she has children at home. Even on the yomim no’raim she is lucky if she goes for a few mins. A woman has built in kochos that instill in her the kedusha that she doesn’t get from the sources men do.

    #753898

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Who is the inventor of the New Judaism? I’m seeing Chidushim here that Chazal never thought of?

    #753899

    tro11
    Member

    “Yes women have it ‘easier’ to attain a high level of kedusha as you say. But how many men do you know who would rather be a woman, busy at home and with all the responsibilities that goes with that. I know plenty women who would prefer the much more ‘exciting’ life of a man, especially at times like purim, simchas torah, in fact every shabbos and yomtov even for the litvish and esp for the chassidish, but overall really for every man every day of the year with minyanim, aliyos, socialising etc. Most women by comparison have a quieter, duller life. So yes a man has it harder but more enjoyable and women are higher without the wonderful things that make a man shteig.”

    And goyim are the best off because they can do whatever they want whenever they want. Obviously you and I have very different priorities. I am talking about the ruchaniyut aspect – I’m not sure what you’re talking about. If you think life is all about fun you are in for a big surprise. You must be young.

    #753900

    tro11
    Member

    “As a woman, when I say She-asani Kirtzono each day, I really mean it.”

    You’ve struck a nerve. I actually also say Sheasani kirtzono because I dont think that I would really mean it if I would say shelo asani isha.

    #753901

    Li Tov
    Member

    All things being equal, women get to keep all their body parts after birth

    I can’t say it with 100% conviction but I’m fairly certain I’ve kept all my body parts after my wife has given birth too.

    Really thought, why is someone who takes the name tro11 and explains how he makes the brachos the he wants to make rather that what he is obligated to make being taken seriously.

    #753902

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    The teva of men is such that we NEED more discipline, more rules than women do.

    Look at the goyish (and, r’l- the Jewish) world and see who commits more crimes – men or women?

    Like I said, we NEED more discipline.

    #753904

    troll: See, if you’d allow your wife would buy you a birthday gift, you’d stop being envious of her

    #753905

    veteran
    Member

    SJS- not in all religions…..

    #753906

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    tro11,

    A man who says “sheasani kirtzono” should consider saying “she’eini oseh ritzono”.

    #753908

    Charlie: fact is Kohaninm are spiritually superior to Yisroelim! And there is good reason for it. Still, “mamzer talmid chochom, kodem l’kohen am ha’aretz”

    #753909

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Charlie,

    The other way around. A Yisroel is so much higher than a Cohen, and that’s why he doesn’t need all those Mitzvos.

    #753910

    Who’s ‘we’ white man?

    #753912

    tro11
    Member

    Charlie,

    The other way around. A Yisroel is so much higher than a Cohen, and that’s why he doesn’t need all those Mitzvos.

    Why should this even be a discussion – why can’t everyone just be equal? Charlie is 100% correct.

    Men can do everything that women can do – even more – we can fly planes, be CEO’s of companies, be lawyers, etc., so why are we worse off when it comes to religion?

    #753913

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Truth,

    They are not actually spiritually higher; they have a position as representing something more spiritual. This comes with responsibility as well as some benefits. The fact that they have more Mitzvos does give them more chances to keep Mitzvos.

    Why are there frogs and sheep; couldn’t there be only bees?

    #753914

    tro11
    Member

    The topic was started by a TROLL.

    Your comment reminds me of the Iranians who saw the word “Zion” in the 2012 olympic logo. You have a very active imagination. My screen name is tro-eleven – nothing to do with troll (and I never even liked them or had any).

    And if your best way to respond is by calling me names and commenting on my screen name, it shows there is not much substance in your argument – an admission of sorts for my position.

    #753915

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Daas: Perfect answer!

    #753918

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    tro11,

    I can’t tell you whether or not it’s a bracha l’vatala to say a bracha which you don’t mean. I can tell you with certainty that saying a bracha which chaza’l did not institute IS a bracha l’vatala.

    I can only advise you to work on yourself so that you can accept chaza’l as wiser than yourself and say the proper bracha with the proper intent.

    I appreciate the compliment, but if it’s cute, that’s incidental. More importantly, it’s true.

  • Thanks, ItcheSrulik.
#753919

HaLeiVi
Participant

In what way, exactly, do you feel inferior? You are obviously the first to feel so. Therefore, please explain. Do you feel that having more Mitzvos is an inferior status?

The reasons for the Bracha of Shelo Asani Isha are:

1: We have more Mitzvos.

2: Women have a harder time in the world; they are often taken advantage of, they have to be much more carefull from evil doers, most attacks are against women, and they are usually physically weaker which helps facilitate most of the above.

Which one are you jealous of? No one is created with checks on their chart. Some are born with more to accomplish, which, as mentioned earlier, is a privilege and a duty. There is a greater possibility to stray, as a man, as well as to accomplish.

Btw, 2012 is the year and nobody made that up. Y0u 5pe11ed a word.

#753920

HaLeiVi:

Truth,

They are not actually spiritually higher

What’s your basis for this. They are indeed on higher spiritual level, in certain aspects. again, even a mamzer, who is most certainly on lower spiritual level, can obtain a loftier spiritual level, if he becomes a talmid chochom. That does not change the kohens loftier spiritual level in other areas.

He told him to be certain not to allow opportunities to slip by, for they can benefit him and his decedents forever.

#753921

SJSinNYC
Member

HaLeivi,

Everyone knows men are inferior to women 🙂

#753922

bombmaniac
Participant

i find it hilarious that youre all indulging someone named troll 😀

#753923

HaLeiVi
Participant

Your story only indicates that in the merit of the deeds of his grandfather, a person inherited Kehuna. Nobody is born a better person. We are supposed to honor the Kehuna, not because this Cohen is a better person than you.

#753925

Please define better and spirtual

#753926

deiyezooger
Member

why do we have Army and navy? cant we all be air force?

There are many units in hashems army but one mission; to serve him and do his will!

#753927

tro11
Member

People aren’t born to the navy or to the army. It is okay for one person to choose to go to the army and another to the navy. It is okay for one person to choose to be a Rosh Hayeshiva (head of a large torah institution) and another to be a lawyer or an accountant or a management assistant.

It is okay to choose to be on a higher spiritual level. You are not born that way.

#753928

tro11
Member

Please define better and spirtual

I don’t understand.

#753929

charliehall
Participant

“Charlie is 100% correct.”

What happened to my comment?

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