Why was the National Anthem or G-D Bless Ameirica not sung by Siyum Hashas?

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  • #604451

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    I am curious as to why the National Anthem or a patriotic song like G-D Bless America was not sung by the Siyum Hashas. After all dozens of agencies bent over backward to make this event safe and run smoothly. We owe a deep debt of grattidude to this country for being a true Malchus Shel Chesed. I think it would have been a appropiate to show the appreciation through the National Anthem or a similar song

    I know that a special announcement was made thanking different agencies, but I am quite certain, the non Jews present found it odd that the Anthem was not played or sung. I may be wrong here, so can someone fill me in, where in Halacha is it stated that we as Jews cannot play or sing the National Anthem at a public Jewish event ?

    #893608

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Where is it written that you are allowed to? If it was the right thing to do, the gedolim there would have done it. Besides, it’s the derech of goyim, not a Torah concept, to sing nationalistic anthems. It’s enough to just say thank you.

    #893609

    ohr chodesh
    Member

    It would’ve been inappropriate to do so.

    #893610

    Sam2
    Participant

    Curiosity: Something is not Assur unless there is an Issur. You don’t need a source to be Matir something. I don’t think that it’s Chukas Hagoyim to sing a national anthem, but I could hear a Tzad that America’s national anthem is borderline Avodah Zarah because it personifies an inanimate object.

    #893611

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    curiosity- did you know that “ani maamim’ was sung at the syum? don’t you think that this is kind of an anthem?

    #893612

    WIY
    Member

    Maybe they should have served peanuts and crackerjacks and sold beer as well? Oh wait, now I remember….IT WASNT A BALLGAME!!!

    #893613

    cherrybim
    Participant

    The g’dolim of the past did it and the g’dolim in England still do it. In addition, they toast the Queen at every simcha. As a youngster, my yeshiva taught us the national anthem and we recited the Pledge of Allegiance, daily.

    #893614

    HaKatan
    Participant

    I agree it would have been appropriate, from a secular perspective.

    But it might have made the siyum seem like, lihavdil, just another secular event that’s held there. So I understand the decision to not sing it at the siyum.

    But Hakaras HaTov and gratitude is definitely in order, and I hope this was otherwise expressed either at that venue or before/after.

    #893615

    Toi
    Participant

    cherrybim- you cant really compare how the people in the UK relate to the queen to the democracy in america. if there was no queen, would you toast cameron? didnt think so.

    #893616

    goldersgreener
    Participant

    dear toi,

    i don’t really get the difference.

    but by the queen’s diamond jubillee a lot of choshuve rabbonim said to put out flags.

    #893617

    Geordie613
    Participant

    “the g’dolim in England still do it. In addition, they toast the Queen at every simcha”

    Not sure which gedolim you mean. I’ve never heard G-D save the Queen played at a yeshivishe/chareidi chasuna in England, nor have I heard the a toast to HM The Queen made. Perhaps at more modern simchas, the equivalent of MO.

    Americans are more patriotic and are always busy flying their flags. We in the UK are flying flags this year because of the Diamond Jubilee, but normally its not done as much as in the US.

    I assume the OP assumed that as this was a national event, the Anthem should be played. I wonder if the polish anthem would have been played at the knesiyos gedolos before the war.

    #893618

    i really registered to complain about the teachers with the shoes, but I think that on this post too i’m one of the only normal people.

    P.S. WIY is also ganz normal

    #893619

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Sam2, I didn’t express my opinion clearly. I know that you don’t need a heter for everything, but sometimes chazal do this with regards to things that one may have a strong hava aminah that they should be assur. To me, this is one of those cases. That’s what I meant, and o should have elaborated. I apologize. Also, I don’t think singing the national anthem by yourself is chukas hagoim, but doing it at a venue that hosts a large public gathering, particularly at a sports arena, and having everyone stand up and sing together seems borderline to me. That’s what the goyim do at their sports game kinnusim, which chazal decry in numerous places, as you know. I just don’t see how subscribing to nationalism, especially in a country that isn’t run al pi daas Torah, would be allowed. Hakaras hatov is one thing, but nationalism or even patriotism for that matter is not for klall Yisroel IMHO.

    Rabbi of Berlin – I didn’t see the siyum, so I’m not sure what song you are referring to. If you mean “ani maamin be’emunah shleyma…” That’s not stam a song, that’s one of the 13 principles of faith brought down by the Rambam. There’s a huge difference.

    Cherrybim – ” The gedolim of the past did it…” whom and where? The rest of what you said is hafla vefeleh! Which Yeshiva did you go to?! I mean, it’s good to know the pledge and the anthem as common knowledge, but to recite it daily??? Also, toasting to the queen at simchas?? That’s just shocking, but I guess there’s nothing wrong with that. We say misheberachs for the foreign governments that they should be kind to their Jews. In England the culture borderline idolizes the queen so I can see how the secular minhag of toasting to her could have seeped in to Jewish events.

    #893620

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The yeshiva I graduated from (a well known, respected, chareidi yeshiva) plays the national anthem at graduations. The Rosh Yeshiva said that we live in the USA, and we need to show hakaras hatov to them.

    I think it definitely should have been played at the siyum.

    #893621

    eman
    Participant

    If they would have sang the National Anthem, then some people would have expected the Israeli NA.

    #893622

    sof davar
    Member

    “but I could hear a Tzad that America’s national anthem is borderline Avodah Zarah because it personifies an inanimate object.”

    First of all, which inanimate object is being personified?

    Secondly, how does personification of an inanimate object border on avoda zara? Yeshayahu Hananvi did it many times. (and being a navi does not make avoda zara any more permissible. A navi cannot make a horoas sha’ah for avoda zara)

    #893623

    choppy
    Participant

    Baruch Hashem the anthem wasn’t played.

    #893624

    Sam2
    Participant

    Curiosity: But there’s nothing religious about the anthem or its foundation. Russian drinking songs weren’t Chukas Hagoyim. This shouldn’t be either.

    Sof Davar: I believe the later stanzas talk about the flag as a person, but I could be mistaken. It’s been a while since I looked at the whole thing.

    #893625

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Feif un, I hear a chiluk between a high school graduation which includes secular studies teachers who aren’t necessarily Jewish & celebrates a graduation from a secular education that is available “thanks to” a secular country, and a siyum haShas which is done lekavod haTorah, and is not made to celebrate anything secular, nor are any of the people affiliated with the simcha not Jewish. The security forces, which did a terrific job, are there to do their jobs that they get paid to do, and were thanked clearly & explicitly, not abstractly through a recitation of their national anthem.

    #893626

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    curiosity- yes,I meant “ani maamim be-emunah shleimah”. if you didn’t know, this song is the de facto national anthem of agudas yisroel for decades. Not wanting to sing the Hatikva, the agudah chose this song as its anthem. So, although it is one of the 13 ikrim ,it is still an anthem.

    #893627

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Cherrybim- I don’t understand what heter there is to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Look at what the words are saying. You are making a neder to give your ultimate loyalty to a morally misguided country. How is that muttar? Mekublani merabosai that it shouldn’t be recited.

    #893628

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The yeshiva I graduated from (a well known, respected, chareidi yeshiva) plays the national anthem at graduations. The Rosh Yeshiva said that we live in the USA, and we need to show hakaras hatov to them.

    I think it definitely should have been played at the siyum.

    If they would have sang the National Anthem, then some people would have expected the Israeli NA.

    Both of these. I think they did the right thing.

    #893629

    Eli51
    Participant

    I remember when I was in MTJ where R. Dovid Feinstein is the Rosh Hayeshiva. for some of my elementary school years they sang the National Anthem before plays.

    #893630

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    To the original poster,

    It is common NOT to play the anthem at non sports events. I spoke to many Meadowlands workers etc while there and there wasnt a ki hu zeh mention about it. In fact they were BH BH BH more complementry about the whole event and how everyone was well mannered and behaved.

    Dont let your desire for the anthem to get in the way of the wonderful night. If you wanted, you should have looked up to the flag high above the endzone and sung the Star Spangled Banner by yourself.

    #893631

    yichusdik
    Participant

    The anthem is only 200+ years old.

    Chodosh Osur Min HaTorah.

    QED

    #893632

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    The National Anthum??!

    Mayhaychi taysi?? If you say it’s a din that’s toluy in a large gathering, is the National Anthum sung before a circus? before a movie? before a concert? before, I don’t know, a priest delivers his sermon? No!

    So you’ll say it’s a din in the Stadium?! But that’s not true either, because there are plenty of concerts there with a packed crowd and there’s no Anthum sung!

    Elah Maay, it’s a din in a football game (or baseball, hockey etc.)

    Comes out, the whole kasha was a to’us and a general “thank you ” was enough.

    (hey, guess who started daf yomi…? )

    🙂

    L’chaim yidden l’chaim!!

    #893633

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    I am still waiting for someone to mention the Israeli Flag hung by Ponovezh on Yom Haatzmaut!

    The fact that other similar events happen is not a proof for anything. Yes, they are all heartwarming and nice to see/hear but one cannot derive Halachik Psak from it.

    Also, I would think there is a SMALL difference between singing the National Anthem at a 500-1,000 person audience at a private graduation as opposed to singing in front of 100,000 people!

    Besides – it was a beautiful event – why are we always looking for the worst and to criticize??

    Is life that good that this is all we have to worry about??

    #893634

    RebRY
    Member

    Who cares if they did not play the NA at the siyum it was a Jewish event why should we need to play a goyish song there. I think most Goyim have a enough seichel to understand that Yidden do things differently then them and no one was really offended except for people who look for every little excuse to hate Yidden (Had they played the NA it would have given people an excuse to listen to goyish music. anytime you would rebuke a person for listening to goyish music they would answer “but at the Siyum Hashas thousands of Yidden listened to goyish music” ( I am just joking about this.)

    #893635

    WIY
    Member

    This is such a non issue.

    #893636

    choppy
    Participant

    RebRY: You may be joking, but it is no laughing matter. There are people that would in fact use exactly that for such an excuse!

    #893637

    justsmile613
    Participant

    In Baltimore in the Bais Yaakov, the girls sing G-D Bless America or Some other patriotic song at the start of class (the younger grades)…It is a show of true Hakaras Hatov to a Malchus Shel Chesed and the Hanhala of BYOB show true courage in this decision.

    #893638

    mason
    Member

    the Israeli flag is hung in ponevezh because it was the tallest building at the time the law was made that the flag must be hung from the tallest building in every city on yom haatmaut. nothing to do with their support for Isreal .

    #893639

    147
    Participant

    I wish they would have sung the haTikvah at the Siyum haShas.

    There also should have been an Israeli & American flag; There also would have been nothing wrong with having a flag or coat of Arms of Lublin, since Daf Yomi originated there; Just as there are still Greek rituals at the Olympics, which originated in Greece in 1896.

    #893640

    Curiosity
    Participant

    147, sure except that’s all a complete corruption of Daas Torah…

    #893641

    Getzel
    Participant

    G-D Bless “Ameirica”?

    maybe if you would spell America correct it would make the USA prouder than singing the national anthem.

    #893642

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    If you really want to know why it wasnt sung or played, call the aguda. I am sure they would tell you.

    #893643

    ohr chodesh
    Member

    The reason it wasn’t played is the same reason “New York, New York” wasn’t played. Or why Mozart wasn’t played.

    #893644

    RebRY
    Member

    C”V to play “hatikva” the zionist NA at a Jewish event.

    #893645

    Avi K
    Participant

    For that matter, why aren’t there prayers for the Federal and State governments in shuls even though they are in all siddurim. In Britain they say a prayer for the Queen.

    As for “HaTikva”, it is the most appropriate for Jewish events. True, Rav kook preferred the “Shir HaMaalot” we sing when there is no Tachanun but “HaTikva” became the minhag.

    #893647

    Menachem Melamed
    Participant

    I doubt that the non-Jews would expect us to sing the national anthem at such a setting – akin to a shul or Bais Medrash. I think that singing the anthem at the Met would have been doubly inappropriate, as it would appear to be reverting the location back to its usual stadium status. A school graduation and the like are appropriate times for us to show our appreciation to our country.

    #893648

    fedup11210
    Member

    do they sing the National Anthem before the Academy Awards? The Emmy Awards? The Tony Awards? Before a rock concert? College graduations? Sunday Church Services? Even though the words to the anthem are over 200 years old, it was only adopted as the official anthem in 1931.

    #893649

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Avi K, many shuls do say those mi-sheberachs. Saying it for the queen is absurd because she has no political power and is just a figure head. The point of the bracha is to ask Hashem to make the people in power be fit to be nice to the Jews. The Hatikva is just as pointless as the American NA. The early zionists were anti-Torah and anti-Hashem.

    #893650

    ohr chodesh
    Member

    Hatikva became the so-called “minhag” of the anti-Torah crowd.

    #893651

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “Which Yeshiva did you go to?! I mean, it’s good to know the pledge and the anthem as common knowledge, but to recite it daily???”

    It was a Lubavitch school.

    #893652

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Yes, Ohr Chodesh, especially the thousands of yeshiva bochurim in hesder yeshivot, (or the hundreds of thousands, counting those from the last 40 years) who sing Hatikvah with thanks and praise for Hakodosh Boruch Hu, who live Torah lives.

    #893653

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mason: That’s just not true.

    Avi K: That’s not true and you know it. Why attempt the rabble-rousing?

    Curiosity: There were many religious early Zionists as well. It’s unfair to lump them all together.

    Ohr Chodesh: Many pro-Torah people find meaning in Hatikva too. The lyrics are fairly inspiring when you think about them.

    #893654

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“For that matter, why aren’t there prayers for the Federal and State governments in shuls even though they are in all siddurim. In Britain they say a prayer for the Queen.”

    It isn’t the Minhag to say them in most Shuls!

    “As for “HaTikva”, it is the most appropriate for Jewish events. True, Rav kook preferred the “Shir HaMaalot” we sing when there is no Tachanun but “HaTikva” became the minhag.”

    Now I’m not going to get into an argument about the Medina and Zionism again with you, but this post is totally Illogical.

    I know you believe that Zionism is Al Pi Torah for EY, but what does Zionism have to do with Jewish events? Yes, in the US many Jewish schools who were pro the Medina sang these Zionist songs at their events. But to claim that it’s the most appropriate for Jewish events is ludicrous. Are you saying you can’t be a Good Jew outside of Israel if you aren’t a Zionist? I think this is the farthest extreme I’ve ever heard out of a Zionist’s Mouth.

    Did you ever belong to the IDF? If not, or if you aren’t there now, perhaps you should join/rejoin? For some “Frum” Jews the IDF is a step up!

    #893655

    choppy
    Participant

    Hatikva has apikorsus as part of the song.

    #893656

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Lubivicher Rebbe heard that someone was coming to visit him from France. When the visitor came the band played La Marseillaise.

    Since then La Marseillaise has been a Lubavicher Niggun and most dont even realize it.

    I was in Crown Heights and heard a few of them singing it and they didnt even know what it was

    #893657

    yehudayona
    Participant

    fedup, the lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner were written in 1814, slightly less than 200 years ago.

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