why were reshaim created?

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  • #1380639

    square root of 2
    Participant

    Hashem knows that they would become reshaim, so why did he create them to begin with? Also, the mesilas yesharim says that we were put in this world to be able to reap reward without nahama dichisufa, yet the gemara says that tzaddikim in olam haba will be embarrassed of each other’s accomplishments and reward, so it seems as though the “kisufa”–embarrassment–will always be present, so what’s the point in coming down to olam hazeh to begin with?

    #1380775

    Avi K
    Participant

    Hashem did not create reshaim. Every person has complete freedom to be a rasha or a tzaddik. This is a basic tenet of Judaism.

    #1608080

    square root of 2
    Participant

    “yet the gemara says that tzaddikim in olam haba will be embarrassed of each other’s accomplishments ”
    baba basra 75a

    #1608111

    laskern
    Participant

    The reshaim help the tzadikim to do good with the ferver they do bad.

    #1608167

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    To give שכר to the צדיקים like it says that אברהם took the earlier generations’ שכר

    #1608306

    baishatalmuder
    Participant

    This is an extremely ignorant question. The gemora says that 40 days before the yetziras havlad, which Rashi says is the moment of conception it is decided whether the person will be rich or poor, smart or stupid. The gemora says that it is not decided whether he will be a tzadik or roshoh because people have bechira.

    #1608544

    apushatayid
    Participant

    hashem does not, never did, will not create reshaim. question based on ignorance (or knowledge of a different religion).

    #1608550

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Well op is true. Baba basra perek beis if my memory doesn’t fail me says Ribbono shel Olam borosa tzaddikim borosa reshaim.

    The Alter Rebbe asks on this in perek aleph : vhu tzaddik vrasha lo komar- echoing baishatalmuder (except the ignorant part because it is a gemara).

    He also answers the question later on in perek 14

    #1608559

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Correction not perek 14. I was thinking of 13, and 13 addresses how one can view themselves as a rasha without getting depressed or apathetic (which was brought up as a question in the same perek as this one.)

    Regardless the Alter Rebbe does answer this question and I’ll be happy to write it up soon

    #1608597

    square root of 2
    Participant

    seems like either ,my question was misunderstood or people are taking the yediah/bechirah paradox to heart. Although a person has the freedom to be a rasha, and Hashem doesn’t create him as a rasha, nevertheless Hashem creates people he know will be reshaim. And hence my question. Why?

    @laskern. Please elaborate. I don’t understand.
    @coffee addict, basically you’re saying that reshaim’s creation is indeed a disservice to them, but it’s done for the tzaddikim’s good?

    #1608598

    square root of 2
    Participant

    @chabad shlucha, I think you contradict yourself in the same post, but whatever, I calrified my question.

    #1608600

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Hashem didnt create tzadikim or reshaim. if such a gemara exists, please tell us how rashi explains it.

    #1608619

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    The Alter Rebbe explains it to mean (in light of the contradicting gemara) that it means he created people who have the potential to be tzaddikim (and thus are different from others from a very young age) and those who have a greater potential to be reshaim due to their stronger yetzer / affinity for wordly things which can easily lead them to be coarser people and even reshaim.

    However the intention of creating these people is so that they will overcome their yetzer for Hashem in a way that is more meaningful than even a tzaddiks Avodas Hashem in a way because he doesn’t have these struggles so its not as big of a deal when he overcomes it.

    (This corresponds to the yoshev ohel vs. Ish sodeh of esav and Yaakov and why Hashem gifted yitzchak and Rivkah with esav. I can elaborate if desired.)

    Hashem likes two types of avoda symbolized by the maatamim Yitzchak requested: there’s sweet food = Avodas hatzaddikim and food that starts out bitter and ends up sweet like onions = Avodas baalei teshuva who transform darkness and bitterness into light and sweet by overcoming their yetzer hara.

    This should answer op

    #1608641

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @ mods did my post with the answer come through?

    #1609317

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    People choose to be reshaim. Nobody is created that way. the question is why do they continue to live. The Rambam says they live to provide company for the tzaddikim so they aren’t so lonely.

    #1609328

    laskern
    Participant

    Relative to reshaim we are tzadikim. They are kept alive because Hashem is erech apayim who is waiting for them to repent.

    #1609632

    square root of 2
    Participant

    There seems to be a large miscommunication here. Being as how nobody understood me, it’s probably my fault ,so let me repeat the question very slowly.
    1. Hashem created people in order to do good.
    2. There are people who don’t do good, i.e. reshaim.
    3. The fact that they do bad on their own volition is irrelevant.
    4. Hashem knows, before he even creates them, that they will be reshaim.
    5. reshaim don’t do good, and hence there is no reason for them to be created.
    6. Why does Hashem create people he knows will be reshaim?

    #1609667

    laskern
    Participant

    The question 4,6 is the Rambam’s question in Hilchas Teshuva 5:5, where we must say that Hashem ignores his knowledge or there is no time element infront of him, everything is happening now. Why didn’t Hashem create the world from Noach on? Noach had to learn from what happened before him. Similarly, the tzadikim learn from the reshaim.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  laskern.
    #1609717

    laskern
    Participant

    The Rambam’s question above is a form of this question. Doesn’t Hashem’s knowledge eliminate free will? If he can do differently than He doesn’t really know what he will do? If He created reshaim than
    He doesn’t really know what they will be?

    #1609722

    laskern
    Participant

    Yaakov Avinu had a brother Aisov to learn what not to do and to learn with what love and enthusiasm that Aisov does aveiras to do mitzvos.

    #1609769

    square root of 2
    Participant

    LASKERN CAN YOU PLEASE READ MY POSTS BEFORE COMMENTING? AND DON’T CHANGE THE SUBJECT, EITHER. THANK YOU.

    #1609827

    laskern
    Participant

    square root of 2. Did you check the Rambam? You are so imprecise as the sqrt(2).

    #1609783

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    In laskerns defense, I think he really is on point. Your question is really a form of the bechira chofshis question. And the other thing also answered your question. There are other answers but this was one and I don’t think he deserved you yelling at home when he was trying to be helpful.

    #1609966

    square root of 2
    Participant

    I apologize for yelling.

    #1609967

    square root of 2
    Participant

    The rambam discusses why yediah and bechira are not contradictory.
    As I said already, more than once, that is not my question.

    #1610033

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    OK I can try. My gut reaction points me to the Rashi on vayinochem Hashem al haadam asher asa” as addressing your question but I haven’t fully fleshed it out in my mind yet. Lmk if this helps.

    The Rashi discusses an apikores who came to one of our chachamim and asked/ stated that this posuk proves that Hashem is unaware of the future. Otherwise why would He mourn what man did? He could have prevented it from the beginning.

    The chacham answered, have you ever had a baby boy? He said yes. “So, what did you do?” “I celebrated and partied with everyone.” “Wait a second didn’t you know he will die someday? Why celebrate?” “Right now its a joyful event so we rejoice, at a time of mourning we mourn.” “So same with Hashem. He doesn’t not create people because of the future crimes they’ll commit. He knows, but takes things one step at a time.”

    Your question to me is a form of the bechira question just in the opposite way it is usually asked. Ie. If Hashem foresees everything why doesn’t He mix in with our free choice by stopping it from the beginning?

    In any case I can attempt to go deeper than this, lmk if this is satisfactory.

    #1610173

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a gemora or midrash where it was asked since people were worshipping the sun so why Hashem does not destroy it? So Hashem said I will not destroy things that is good for them. Similarly the reshaim, as mentioned above, are useful for the tzadikim.

    #1610178

    laskern
    Participant

    We find a similar story when Rabbi Elozor Ben Azarya was appointed as the nasi, so they asked maybe you will also be removed? He answered with a question, should a person not use a gold becher because it will break tomorrow? You enjoy it as long as you can.

    #1610228

    square root of 2
    Participant

    So, in a nutshell, reshaim were not created for their own good.

    #1610215

    ZionGate
    Participant

    I think you asked an excellent question.
    On the surface, it seems that what He created was evil, but not necessarily evil people (reshoim), who, as has been commented upon , make the choices out of bechirah… or did He?.
    We know that He created evil because it says outright that Hashem will banish evil in the future…. ie, the Satan or yetzer harah, which you must then say, that He created it .
    The question is why did He create evil in the first place.
    More to your point…. The Gemarah says that if someone has a lust for blood, presumably being born in the Maazel Maadim month, he should, in order not to give in to murderous temptations, become a shochet or mohel.. On top of that, the malach infuses the baby with character traits subject to G-D’s instructions, but not with Yiras Shamayim…. That is left to the newbie’s choice later in life.
    Can the malach then also infuse the child with a sadistic , lusty, meek, tolerant, angry, artistic, etc. streaks?
    We DO see people who have certain personality traits leaning in a certain direction, or bent, let’s say.
    On top of that, until bar mitzvah the child has a yetzer harah but not yetzer tov. Why?
    The damage to this world since Creation done by humans with evil minds & hearts is incalculable.
    Don’t know the answer.

    #1610258

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasan Sofer explains, the yetzer hora is like a salesman trying to sell fake goods like the wife of Potifar tried to convince Josef that she was for his benefit, but when she nudge him day by day, he did not listen to him because if the merchandise is really good for him, she should not need to talk so much. The yetzer tov does not talk much because he is selling good stuff and the merchandise speaks for him. So the yetzer hora must have an advantage, otherwise he will not be listened to.

    #1610247

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    That’s one answer… There is another based on my understanding of what I learnt but since I can’t point it out in one neatly packaged rashi etc im hesitant to explain it if you find the other satisfactory.

    #1610303

    laskern
    Participant

    The Tiferes Yisroel at the end of Kidushin tells the story where king commisioned his painter to paint a picture of Moshe Rabbenu. He asked his advisers to interpret the picture. They said that the picture indicates that he was a murderer. The king got upset, the painter said they did not interpret it correctly and the advisers said that he did not paint it correctly. So the king decided to see by himself how he looks like. He took his anterage to see him. He was suprised to see that he looked exactly as painted. He asked him, how can you be a leader and look like this? Moshe Rabbenu told him that his job is to fight his nature. The Tzetil Katan from the Noam Elimelech that our job in this world is to fight and over come our nature.

    #1610316

    laskern
    Participant

    Trying to answer your original question that tzadikim feel jealous and embarassed of other tzadikim that is provided they did not reach the level of Moshe Rabbenu who reached his full potential. Our assignment in this world is to reach our full potential so we are jealous of other tzadikim who reached their potential. The jealousy of other tzadikim is not like getting welfare where someone did not do anything to earn his keep.

    #1610493

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha says: Well op is true. Baba basra perek beis if my memory doesn’t fail me says Ribbono shel Olam borosa tzaddikim borosa reshaim.

    However, that quote is Iyov’s mistaken statement. He was actually trying to say that there should not be punishment. And the answer to him is that although there is a Yetzer Hara there is a Torah to combat it with.

    Rashi actually explains that even Iyov never meant that Hashem created the person to be evil but rather that Barassa Reshaim refers to the fact that Hashem created an evil inclination. The Tanya Darshens Iyov’s words but you go further to give him credence as well.

    #1610494

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If Hashem would not create those people whom He knows will turn out bad, then we would have a world in which there is no active Bechira.

    Instead, He set up this zone for all His creation to bring out their potential virtue. And the good will shine out from within the murky atmosphere. This way we are choosing Hashem.

    As for the Nahama Dikisufa, I don’t see any contradiction there. What you do get is deserved and well received and what you don’t get, for lack of accomplishment, is embarrassing.

    #1610496

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Laskern, that Tiferes Yisroel, although it is quoted in other Sefarim, probably because of the great Mussar value, is highly suspect and seems to contradict famous Medrashim about Moshe Rabbeinu as well as what we know about Chachmas Hapartzuf or natural ‘sixth-sense’ recognition.

    • This story emerges in the nineteenth century without a hint in earlier Sefarim/Midrashim.
    • The Shita Mikubetzes in Nedarim has such a story, but about some anonymous Chacham.
    • Being that Moshe Rabbeinu was Nolad Mahul and that the house filled with light, it is quite odd to say that his face was that of an evil person.
    • When a person works on himself, he changes and so does the look on the face.
    #1610685

    laskern
    Participant

    Halevi, whether the legend is true or not is irrelevant. The importance is to learn to reach our potential.

    #1610715

    square root of 2
    Participant

    Laskern, thank you for the mussar tidbits. Does it pertain to the discussion?

    Haleivi, “If Hashem would not create those people whom He knows will turn out bad, then we would have a world in which there is no active Bechira.”
    What are you talking about? A tzaddik’s bechira is not dependent on whether there are reshaim in the world or not.

    “As for the Nahama Dikisufa, I don’t see any contradiction there. What you do get is deserved and well received and what you don’t get, for lack of accomplishment, is embarrassing.”
    Excellent. Now if the point was to avoid embarrassment, it seems like a failure, no?

    #1610758

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, I heard that the Maggid of Wilkommer screamed against that Tifferet Yisrael and proved from pesukim that it is incorrect. Later someone found similar stories about Socrates and Aristotle. However, I did read recently about a neuroscientist named James Fallon who discovered to his shock that his brain scan matched those of psychopathic murderers although he is happily married and has never been in trouble with the law. He wound up writing a book about it called The Psychopath Inside: A Neuroscientist’s Personal Journey into the Dark Side of the Brain.

    #1611036

    laskern
    Participant

    Reshaim are a bad influence, so the tzadik can mix with them and become like them or avoid them. It becomes like in Shir Hashirim a rose among the thorns which makes them avoid bending either way and they end up growing straight.

    #1611111

    StuartW
    Participant

    Why were rashaim created?. The same could be asked of tzadikim. Of anyone in fact. Hashem knows what will transpire, so He can skip the whole process of giving anyone life.

    Without rejecting aforementioned responses, I would add that the experience of living a life is important to the soul. Though we know in advance with reasonable certainty that a child will enjoy an outing to an amusement park, we bring the child anyhow. Or, we know a criminal will suffer in prison, but we lock him up anyhow. In both of these examples it is the experience itself that makes the difference. (For the sake of my argument, I am excluding cases of protecting society.)

    #1611212

    laskern
    Participant

    StuartW, They ask the question, why Hashem tested Avraham with the Akedah even though He knew he can withstand it? The answer is that the experience made Avraham better or others can learn from it.
    It says in the Hagaddah, whoever tells Yetzias Mitzraim in great detail, הרי זה משבח they traslate, becomes himself better. האמנתי כי אדבר I streghten by belief when I speak.

    #1611240

    StuartW
    Participant

    Laskern, thank you for the referencial support.

    As an aside, everyone please notice that Laskern wrote “with the Akeida” and not “by the Akeida”. It’s been 80 years since Kristallnacht, may Hashem have mercy on the souls of the kedoshim. Time we all learned to speak English. You can use Yiddish words but not grammar. It is hard to be a light upon the nations when you can’t talk to the nations properly.

    P.S. “regarding” would be even better
    P.P.S. sorry for the tangent but I don’t want to make an entire thread about this triviality

    #1611279

    StuartW
    Participant

    To be clear, further to my earlier post, I was touting Lakern’s English

    #1611278

    laskern
    Participant

    StuartW – I am questioning, you announcing to everyone, don’t you make a bigger transgression than I misusing a word? You know ashaming someone in public is a big aveira. Besides, by can also mean next to.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  Y.W. Editor.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  laskern.
    #1611275

    AviT
    Participant

    @square root of 2:

    I’m not sure why nobody seems to understand the question. It is a good one which I have pondered myself. I don’t usually bother with online forums but since your actual question isn’t even being discussed I created an account just to post this reply. Unfortunately, I can’t reference specific sources for what follows since it is a composite of various shiurim (mostly on chassidus and kabbalah) and divrei torah I’ve heard over the years but it should, at least, provide an approach which you can research separately.

    In order to present this answer there is some background information that needs to be laid out first:

    1: In the initial creation of Adam the souls of all mankind were included in his unified master/root soul which was later fractured into individual souls.

    2: When Hashem shortened the life span of mankind to 120 years the total life span of each person wasn’t truly diminished it was divided across multiple lives/gilgulim (e.g. if person x were to live 1000 years they could now instead have 10 lives of 100 years each). The Arizal taught that every person has at least 3 gilgulim since they have to perform every mitzvah in machshava, dibbur, and maaseh. And that most will have many more… some may have hundreds. From what I’ve seen, the popular notion that a gilgul is only a rare occurrence and a form of punishment is not accurate.

    3: Geihinom and all the various forms of punishment in this world and the next are not simply punishments and don’t last eternally. They are more of a cleansing procedure which corrects the souls subject to them. There are mepharshim who explain that (except for possibly a select few throughout history) every jew will eventually have a personal redemption and merit olam habbah. I’m not clear on whether it similar would apply to goyim as well but I think it makes sense to say that it would (although, they may only receive their eternal reward through jews).

    In light of this, I would say that indeed Hashem doesn’t create people who will fail entirely. Some just have a longer, harder path to success than others. Some need multiple failed iterations of life to learn the lessons that will ultimately allow them to succeed at a future point. We see their failure as being complete because we only have one piece of the puzzle.

    #1611261

    laskern
    Participant

    StuartW, you must be an english teacher. A joke is told where someone arrives to the next world. The gate keeper asks, who is this? He answers,
    it is I. He says to him, you must be an english teacher.

    #1611318

    StuartW
    Participant

    Laskern, i was touting (complimenting) your English, as I was clear to say in my next post. I was using you as a good example.

    I would never call out an individual on his language skills, especially in public.

    As for being an English teacher, no, I just see no reason why a people choose to speak like immigrants in their own birthplace (though I understand why many in the Chasidishe community choose to, but it is annoying).

    You called me our in public for something I didn’t even do (don’t worry, I don’t care).

    #1611327

    laskern
    Participant

    StuartW , ” It is hard to be a light upon the nations when you can’t talk to the nations properly.” sorry this is not complimentary.

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