Win for the Charaidim in Eretz Yisroel!!

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  • #608549
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    From the Times of Israel:

    Exactly what we (ZD, myself & others) thought would happen. This is not bad at all for the Charaidim, who get the advantage of not having to worry about jail for draft-dodging, and have the ability to work without going to the army. Looks like a win for the Charaidim.

    #939250

    I suppose you can say that unless someone wants them to visit a place in chutz la’aretz and they are unable to leave.

    #939251
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I suppose you can say that unless someone wants them to visit a place in chutz la’aretz and they are unable to leave.

    I imagine they would be allowed to leave if they renounce their citizenship, but even that is a small price to pay in exchange for being allowed to learn in peace.

    #939252
    truthsharer
    Member

    Yeah, think of the schnorrers.

    #939253
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I didnt read any article, but from GAW’s post it likely means they take away or dont give you a passport

    Without a Passport you cannot enter any other country (You might be able to leave Israel, but you can go anywhere)

    #939254
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So you’re okay with b’nei yeshiva being considered criminals in Artzeinu Hakedoshah for sitting and learning, with the benevolent medina, although not allowing them to leave the country (sounds like communist Russia to me), not throwing them in jail. What a nice guy.

    #939255
    akuperma
    Participant

    So a Palestinian who supports Hamas, and whose sibling is a terrorist, can get an Israeli passport and welfare state benefits, but a Jew who wants to learn Torah can’t. And Hareidim who take jobs “on the books” will be immediately arrested for draft evasion. And since welfare state benefits include housing and health care, anyone learning Torah will be cut off from access to all but the most expensive alternatives. Does loss of tax benefits for yeshivos means that they will have to pay income tax on money received from abroad (i.e. if Americans send $100K to support students learning, the government takes $30K)? If these sanctions don’t work, what comes next? The whole article, in context, makes it clears this is the governmetn deliberately oppressing the hareidim in the hope of forcing them to give up being hareidi. And absent a change to the Basic Laws, the Supreme Court will order conscription of women – which is even more of a problem halachically. It is oppression, pure and simple.

    If Hareidim are treated worse than Arabs (and bluntly, the zionists do mistreat Arabs, especially those that oppose them politically), then why not support a Palestinian state? [edited] The most optimistic scenario is the haredim will be able to ally with the Israeli left and force an end to conscription. The worst is that the ability to peacefully sit and learn Torah in Eretz Yisrael will require replacing Medinat Yisrael.

    If the article is correct, and goes into effect, it means the end of the yishuv as we know it.

    [edited] inappropriate terminology

    #939256
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    BTW on the US State Deparment travel Advisory website

    the US does not recognize Dual Citzenship (Israel Does) and they warn travellers to Israel who might have an Israeli Passport that you can be conscripted into the Israeli Army and the US State Department cannot help you

    #939257
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: Much better than what many (including the “Gedolim” (quotes because I don’t believe they said it), who called it Shmad) thought would happen.

    Besides, they would not be “criminals” (subject to punishment by law), but would face monetary penalties (similar to someone who doesn’t buy health insurance under Obamacare). They don’t even have to pay a fine (!!!), but are blocked from certain benefits. As I said, a win for the Charaidim.

    #939258
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    akuperma: The whole point is that they will not be arresting anyone. If Charaidim can only learn Torah B’Osher, then that is their problem. That they will now be forced to follow the Brisker Mehalech and not take the Medinah’s Shekalim? Big deal.

    Besides, you discount the Torah too much. Have Emunah that there are people out there who actually believe thay can be Koneh Torah the way Chazal says to do so. (Pas B’Melach Tochal…)

    #939259
    akuperma
    Participant

    In a welfare state, being cut off from the welfare state puts you in a very bad way. It means that in a hospital, you pay the rate charged to rich American tourists. Most housing in Israel is in someway subsidized – so it means you can only buy housing in the “tourist” apartments. The major tax benefit yeshiovos receive is to be able to avoid taxes on foreign contributions (which otherwise would be taxable income). And they are still banning hareidim who want to work “on the books” from doing so unless they serve in the army (as opposed to Arabs, who can get jobs).

    By avoiding arrests, they avoid an immediate confrontation, unless they (as their press suggests) see these only as first steps, with stricter measures to be applied if they don’t work at lowering the yeshiva population. By establishing a system in which 15% of the people have restricted civil rights, you guarantee instability. Since this is religion based, it will violate most human rights principles.

    At the very least, it will end cooperation in other areas between hareidim and dati leumi. The Hareidim will offer to ally with Labor based on common support for the welfare state, and an agreement to end conscription and equal rights. Imagine the situation at a school in America where some students are raising money for hareidim who are being denied basic medical care and housing since they learn Torah and the Dati Leumi are responsible, while their classmates are raising money for settlers who are left homeless by policies to reduce settlements which they will blame on the hareidim who will be supporting such policies.

    #939260
    truthsharer
    Member

    Why would you expect money froma state you don’t recognize?

    #939261
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Akuperma the use of the n word in any context is offensive please refrain from using it in the future.

    Thank you for pointing it out.

    #939262
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    akuperma: What do the Briskers & Neturai Karta do now? They live without the welfare, and so can those who are serious about learning full time to the point where they can’t do Sherut for a few years.

    #939263
    ari-free
    Participant

    You can’t leave the country unless you do what it wants? Israel truly is now a fascist state.

    #939264
    Health
    Participant

    It’s time to start supporting the ones that call Israel -Apartheid. Enough with the US giving them money every year.

    Time to start a petition against financial support for them in the US.

    #939265
    Health
    Participant

    ZD -“Without a Passport you cannot enter any other country (You might be able to leave Israel, but you can go anywhere)”

    This actualy is No problem -they have an undergound -black -market for this. It will be a New major business for Frum Yidden, but the social programs might hurt some Charedim.

    #939266
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Health: Where is the “I told you so”?

    ari-free: You can leave, they just won’t take you back.

    #939267
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I also second Goq, and ask that the Mods place that word on their “banned” list.

    #939268
    bentch
    Participant

    truth: because the state forces them to pay taxes.

    #939269
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    truth: because the state forces them to pay taxes.

    Taxes pay for services. If you want clean water, sewage and garbage removal, roads, etc. you need to pay them.

    I hate taxes too.

    #939270
    truthsharer
    Member

    They’re not working , they don’t pay taxes

    #939271
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, GAW, criminals, just the benevolent medina will be very kind and not throw them in jail.

    How you can claim that a terrible scenario is a victory, because it could have been worse, is beyond me.

    #939272
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Thank you Mods and Goq

    #939273
    aaron613
    Participant

    @gavra_at_work Where does it say they can work?

    #939274
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Taxes pay for services. If you want clean water, sewage and garbage removal, roads, etc. you need to pay them.

    This is not relevant to this thread, but please don’t perpetuate that myth.

    The majority of tax revenue does not go for public expenditures; it goes for redistribution of wealth. The main purpose of taxation is to reallocate resources from the more productive people to the less productive people.

    #939275
    Health
    Participant

    GAW -“Health: Where is the “I told you so”?”

    /;) – (:o

    #939276
    akuperma
    Participant
    #939277
    Mobe613
    Member

    The charedim have brought this all on themselves and in the process have created one of the biggest chil hashems in history. There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army. If learning is important they can learn before and after, and if they were truly interested in doing their part the army would have worked out a system where they could continue learning while they serve.

    But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve. Some of them are just scared, and some of them (especially the leadership) are afraid that once their population is our in the real world they will realize that they dont need to be charedi and that their roshei yeshiva have been wrong about some things.

    Its a chillul hashem because secular israeli’s see charedim as parasites. This causes them to hate the torah and orthodox jews. Charedim should have approached the secular like chabad, with warmth and understanding and tried to be mekarev them, instead they just pushed them away by being selfish and worrying only about themselves.

    They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi. Who did they think they were dealing with? They finally pushed things too far and everyone else is fed up and now they will get what they have brought upon themselves.

    #939278
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Health ?

    PBA: In a welfare state, yes. I’m still not sure what your point is. As we discussed elsewhere, someone who has wealth can not “self-declare” themselves Charaidi. The only way to tell is if they don’t have the wealth to be redistributed (for example, they learn full time). The government can then decide not to redistribute to a specific sect or group as per their own self interest.

    It is time we realize that our relationship to the zionist rulers of Eretz Yisrael is identical to that of African Americans in the United States prior to World War II.

    Yup. I just seen that Charaidi lynched on the street pole!! Next we’re gonna scare off that Charaidi girl Na’ama who just wants to live in our town and go to school!! Then we’all gonna trash that Charaidi store that opened in our neighborhood that sells what we don’t like. Don’t they know this area is ours and they aint welcome?

    (oops).

    The more apt comparison (unfortunately) is that the Charaidim are practicing Jim Crow. (although I don’t agree that it can be compared either way) This is with their “separate but equal” access to the Kotel, “separate but equal” bussing & exclusive neighborhoods for Charaidim only (to the point where they regulate what visitors are allowed to wear and physically assault those who do not comply).

    It is bigotry, pure and simple.

    #939279
    Mobe613
    Member

    The real chutzpah is that the haredim are acting like they are surprised by the way they are being treated. Where did they think this was going? Who in the world thinks they can have an entire population of unemployed people who receive tremendous amounts of funds from the government and don’t participate in ensuring the physical safety of the country? What other possible result could there be to the system they set up other than the rest of Israel finally getting fed up and taking it all away?

    #939280
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Dear akuperma i meant no ill will towards you and am sorry if i have caused you any embarrassment, that word is just too offensive to use in any context, I interact with African-Americans on a daily basis and have no problem with them at all.

    #939281
    Rosh Cham
    Participant

    The delusions of some of the people on this thread is funny

    #939282
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It is time we realize that our relationship to the zionist rulers of Eretz Yisrael is identical to that of African Americans in the United States prior to World War II.

    The African Americans worked

    #939283
    akuperma
    Participant

    zahavasdad: Teachers are employed. Only Israel considered teachers to be NOT WORKING, and then only in the frum schools. If they were “learning” in a university, they would be considered employed. If an advanced student studying Talmud who lives off of stipends paid to students is in a yeshiva he is unemployed in Israel, but if he is in the university he is employed.

    And that doesn’t count the huge number of people who are actually working off the books, but need to avoid the army since the army (except for select units) is hostile to haredim (you will know if the army changed when you hear of promising well connected officers being dismissed for being anti-hareidi, just as in the 1960s the US starting dismissing officers for racism – it hasn’t happened yet).

    #939284
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Stop comparing University to Yeshiva. University education is for a limited amount of time, usually 4 years for a BA, 2 More for a Masters After that you work.

    Yeshiva learning is open ending and the support is infinate

    Also you can flunk out of university, if you are not able to keep up, they throw you out, Even the weakest yeshiva students are kept on the dole.

    If you want to learn all day on your father or father-in-laws money that is fine or let your wife work hard to support that is fine. However if you are going to expect the masses to support you , you need to live by their rules.

    He who controls the kings treasury controls the king

    #939285
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    akuperma: and now they will be able to work on the books without having to go to the army. That is (one of the reasons) why it is a win.

    #939286

    But I think that they should perhaps have a one year thing where people tutor secular israelis in Torah subjects, or something like that. Even if only one year, if one year of a sherut leumi type thing that would allow them to still learn/ teach Torah while doing it is all it would take to end this, then I would say that there is no reason not to.

    #939287
    Health
    Participant

    Mobe613 -“The charedim have brought this all on themselves”

    You’re right – they should never have taken anything from the Zionists.

    “and in the process have created one of the biggest chil hashems in history.”

    You don’t know what a Chillul Hashem is.

    “There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army.”

    There is absolutely no basis for serving.

    “But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve.”

    How did you figure this one out?

    And the reason is because going to the army is against the Torah.

    “Charedim should have approached the secular like chabad, with warmth and understanding and tried to be mekarev them, instead they just pushed them away by being selfish and worrying only about themselves.”

    Who do you think all these Kiruv orgs are for – Charedim?

    “They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi. Who did they think they were dealing with? They finally pushed things too far and everyone else is fed up and now they will get what they have brought upon themselves.”

    They are -whether some Zionists understands this or not.

    #939288
    Health
    Participant

    Mobe613 -“The real chutzpah is that the haredim are acting like they are surprised by the way they are being treated.”

    Noone is surprised. At least now the whole world will know how Israel is Apartheid. After they enact this legislation -watch how the US cuts off their funding. Perhaps with the less funding -they’ll have to make the army smaller? They are just cutting off their nose in spite of their face.

    #939289
    Health
    Participant

    zahavasdad -“The African Americans worked”

    It’s quite obvious you didn’t grow up in the inner city like I did.

    Your posts are so typical of liberalism in this country – they read their lib books and other media in school and then they think it’s reality. Sorry, liberalism is the farthest from Truth.

    #939290
    charliehall
    Participant

    I happened to have heard a talk by a prominent DL educator in EY this weekend. He reported that 30 years ago, half of young people from Dati backgrounds were no longer religious after army service with the exception of those who went to the hesder yeshivot. Some DL leaders realized that this was not acceptable and they started to create special programs to prepare young Datim for army service. This was done without the support of the leading rabbis, but the DL community has never insisted on Daas Torah.

    And it worked. Most Dati young people are still religious at the end of their army service. And may stay in the army and make it a career — to the point that some of the seculars are worrying about a religious takeover of the army!

    Hopefully the Charedi leaders — and it will take the leaders to get involved — will see this example and follow it. And hopefully the IDF will create more units like Nachal Charedi that will be more comfortable for young people from religious backgrounds.

    I also hope that the IDF and the Charedim will both pay more attention to the rulings of the IDF rabbis. There are in fact many kulot that people in the military need to use (similar to doctors), and if you are in the army you should follow the halachic authority of the army. The IDF rabbis are all Orthodox and some have been great talmidei chachamim. And the IDF should accept that if it is to win acceptance among charedim it has to stop forcing unnecessary halachic violations when there is no life or death situation (when of course halachic violations can become mitzvot).

    #939291
    charliehall
    Participant

    “University education is for a limited amount of time, usually 4 years for a BA, 2 More for a Masters After that you work.”

    I now get paid, after earning a PhD, but I’m still constantly learning — keeping up with scientific developments and making small contributions to knowledge.

    The difference between yeshiva and university is that in the former we learn what HaShem wants from us and in the latter we learn about HaShem’s creations.

    #939292
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not in favor of government grants to fund research for research sake. If you want to apply for private grants for research for research sake, that is fine, But I know its not easy to get them . Lots of people are competing for those funds than you have to usually file forms 2 and 3 inches thick

    #939293

    Mobe613:

    “There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army.”

    What are you talking about?! Li’halacha, one is not supposed to stop learning to perform a mitzva that is efsher la’asos al yiday achairim, can be performed by somebody else.

    “If learning is important they can learn before and after, and if they were truly interested in doing their part the army would have worked out a system where they could continue learning while they serve.”

    Any time spent serving cannot be spent learning. The Chareidim would rather be learning.

    “But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve. Some of them are just scared, and some of them (especially the leadership) are afraid that once their population is our in the real world they will realize that they dont need to be charedi and that their roshei yeshiva have been wrong about some things.”

    It is obvious, and always has been, that the Lapidnicks don’t just want the Chareidim to “share the burden”. Instead, they view the Chareidim as a backwards, evil cult that must be destroyed at all costs.

    “They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi.”

    Aha. So looking good is more important than doing what’s actually right?

    GAW:

    “the Charaidim are practicing Jim Crow. (although I don’t agree that it can be compared either way) This is with their “separate but equal” access to the Kotel, “separate but equal” bussing & exclusive neighborhoods for Charaidim only (to the point where they regulate what visitors are allowed to wear and physically assault those who do not comply). It is bigotry, pure and simple.”

    You do realize that everything you just called “bigotry” is all pure halacha, right?

    #939294
    ari-free
    Participant

    You know what is a chilul Hashem? When the creator of an American magazine that celebrates filth proclaims that Israel shares his ‘values.’ This is what is accepted in Israel, not the Torah.

    #939295
    Mobe613
    Member

    Kanoi Next Door-

    I said- “They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi.”

    You said- “Aha. So looking good is more important than doing what’s actually right?”

    No. My point is not that it is more important to look good. My point is simply to say, what did the charedim think was going to happen eventually?

    They might think that learning is protecting the rest of the country (and they might even be right), but the should be smart enough to realize that the rest of the country doesn’t think that.

    So they set themselves up to fail by basing their community on an argument that, by definition, is not going win over the rest of Israeli society. They should have planned ahead more and compromised since the uncompromising position was doomed to failure.

    #939298
    thegra
    Member

    Health: Why are you being hika galim for no reason?

    #939299
    ari-free
    Participant

    I don’t think they should have compromised but they definitely made political mistakes. Likud also lost because of these kinds of tactics. For example, both Likud and chareidim attacked Bennett before the election and it is no surprise that Bennett felt that he needed to take revenge on both.

    #939300
    About Time
    Participant

    Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu delivered a heartfelt tribute to Rabbi Haim Druckman, venerated spiritual leader of the religious Zionist stream, at an evening Sunday honoring Rabbi Druckman upon reaching the age of 80.

    Netanyahu tore up the speech he had prepared and delivered an improvised version of it instead. “You know,” he quipped, “in my family, reaching the age of 80 is not something to write home about… and you have a long road full of great deeds ahead of you.”

    “I would like to speak of your courageous virtues,” he said, “three of them, and the first is here in the hall and outside it.”

    The second courageous virtue Netanyahu spoke of was Rabbi Druckman’s successful conversion of 50,000 people into Judaism, in the time when he headed the Conversion Authority.

    Living In CIS, (11/3/13)

    How many of those 50,000 observe Torah and mitzvos? Those I know who took the tests and passed do not keep anything. It was just “wish me luck on the test!” and then nothing. Being m’ga’er the Russian immigrants who believe in another religion does not stop anti-semitism, and just makes a Fifth Column within Judaism, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe warned, over 30 years ago!

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