Women Doing Men’s Jobs
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- This topic has 73 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 6 months ago by Always_Ask_Questions.
November 10, 2021 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2026835
Avira > pitfalls of batalah mayviah lidei znus/shigaon are worse than the chisaron of being “out” a lot.
These issues may be related. A lady out shmoozing or browsing instagram is probably at higher risk than the one doing brain surgeries. I am not saying that the latter are fully protected, but a combination of being busy and self-esteem gives some protection. So, those communities where women are not going into professions, are probably more insisting on them staying inside.November 10, 2021 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2026923☕️coffee addictParticipant
You belong in I’m a mother where people complain about their husbands
🙄November 10, 2021 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2026922
Yehudis; Rambam (among many Torah sources) says that a wife should have the same fear of following her husband’s instructions as she would for a king. Do you oppose this obligation or consider it outdated or objectionable?November 10, 2021 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #2026932
“You belong in I’m a mother where people complain about their husbands”
And religion, and Gd, and authority and rules…November 10, 2021 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #2026952☕️coffee addictParticipant
TouchéNovember 11, 2021 12:27 am at 12:27 am #2026999Little FroggieParticipant
Frogette is a teacher for girls. She is my shliach, I’m yotze working with her. So in essence I’m doing a woman’s job!
ps she thinks I’m using my time wisely. <<OOPS>> Here she comesxwexwnlex xcvbhdskadsvksaldjc sadc aiwejioj wije ciojwedij wioedbdcasbc,sabedcwjeiodjwiojdn cqwd ijw dj dasmncdsc jka;k dsf;klj sdklfj wejerq3 rij32 <CONNECTION LOST>November 11, 2021 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2027001
😄November 11, 2021 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #2027279
Yehudis, perhaps because the content of the posts themselves – disagree or agree with them – aren’t in the category of opinions that run contrary to normative Jewish thought, while feminism in all of its incarnations definitely is. I don’t agree with ujm fully on his views on women, but the difference between him and the overwhelming majority of bnei Torah are pretty small, whereas any inching towards feminism is a deviation from the mesorah and kovod hatorah.November 11, 2021 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2027292
Y21: It’s sad that you feel that the Torah and Halacha, such as the Halacha I referenced above, is bigoted. The heterodox movements say the same.November 11, 2021 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #2027353
“I don’t agree with ujm fully on his views on women, but the difference between him and the overwhelming majority of bnei Torah are pretty small,”
You make a dangerous oversight. You may say the difference is small, but the presentation, as is being pointed out, is not only lacking accuracy but foul smelling. If you make a 5 star steak house and put a skunk at the entrance you will turn away many people and be thought of negatively as well. When you claim to represent torah as well you leave people with a bad taste in their mouths.November 12, 2021 7:10 am at 7:10 am #2027373
Syag, honestly my nose has been stuffed up for weeksNovember 12, 2021 7:14 am at 7:14 am #2027424
Syag, agree. There are many saying about Talmidei Chachamim that can be used as the definition of the term.
For example, if you see a T’Ch doing an aveirah at night, then you don’t have to tell him next morning because he surely did teshuva already. That is, an aveirah does not disqualify, but a lack of introspection does.
Similarly, T’Ch-im merabim shalom b’olam. So those who do not, do not qualify.November 12, 2021 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2027481
AAQ. – marbin sholom means that they’re “motzi” the world tue shiur of how much fighting there’s supposed to be through their milchamta Shel TorahNovember 12, 2021 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #2027550
Avira, it is simple to measure shalom, see whether your words and actions increase it or not. Peshat.November 12, 2021 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #2027580
Yehudis: How about you ask a Posek whether as a wife one is required to carry out the requests and instructions her husband gave her.
Don’t be shy; please do ask. I posit that no Posek will tell a wife asking that, that “no”, she isn’t obligated to carry out her husband’s (lawful) instructions given her.
Would you have any doubt that you’re halachicly obligated to carry out any orders given to you by your King? Would you have any doubt that you’re halachicly obligated to fulfill requests given to you by your parents?
I assume not. So why do you presume a husband is less than a King or parents.
I shared with you that Halacha above from the Rambam. But it is given thoroughout Halacha, from Chazal, Rishonim and Achronim. It isn’t controversial or even disputed.
You know that Kibud Av V’Eim is a fundamental obligation/mitzvah that’s one of the Aseres Hadibros (Ten Commandments, for the uninitiated.) Did you know that the Shulchan Aruch says that a wife is relieved from her duty of Kibud Av V’Eim, and has no obligation to carry out that Torah requirement of Kibud Av V’Eim — one of the Ten Commandments? You read that correctly. Do you know why the S”A says the reason a wife isn’t obligated in Kibud Av V’Eim is? The Mechaber says that since a wife is obligated to fulfill her husband’s duties, therefore she isn’t obligated to her parents. (The same is not applicable vice versa, regarding the husband to his parents.)November 12, 2021 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #2027592
Ujm, i think what yehudis might mean is that when there are sholom bayis issues, no rov would tell the woman to pipe down, look at her husband as a king, and move on. I hope you’d agree to that. Being a king doesn’t mean that a woman bows and is completely mevatel herself. Also, a woman’s mitzvah of kibuv av veaim isn’t nullified, it’s just that her duties to her husband come first – “reshus acherim alehah”. But as much as a rov will tell a woman that her responsibility to her husband comes first, he will also tell a man to prioritize his wife over his other family members.
Yehudis, ishah keshereh osah ratzon baalah is definitely taught to kallos in the yeshiva and chadidish world, as it should be. What’s also taught is self respect and having zero tolerance for verbal, emotional, or physical abuse. The ideal dynamic is not oppressive at all.
The attitude of looking at a husband as a king is a two way street; he is to look at her as a queen, duly consider her counsel, and honor her more than himself, amid the myriad other responsibilities a “kingly” husband has to his wife. A king is not a dictator; he is a king because he is accepted as such and his authority is the result of deserving it. If he acts like an idiot, he can’t expect his wife to have much respect for him. Rabbonim advise men to earn their wives’ respect by not getting angry, learning in the house, being careful about minyan, and many other things. They don’t tell the husband “yeah, your wife is breaking halacha…she should jump in a lake”.November 12, 2021 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #2027594
In a very limited situation, where a man’s mother asks him to bring her food, and his wife asks for his help….yesh ladun. It might be expected that nowadays parents are mochel on their kovod and that the mother would probably be happier if the son acts like a good husband.November 12, 2021 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #2027609
Avira, the Shach writes on that Shulchan Aruch that if the husband is not makpid, then the wife’s obligation of Kibud Av V’Eim still stands.November 12, 2021 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #2027611
> whether as a wife one is required to carry out the requests and instructions her husband gave her.
One guy asked that, and was told in no uncertain terms: listen to everything Sarah told you.
Some of this discussions remind of the hypothetical asked by an orphan in Gemora – what if both my Father and my Mother ask a cup of water at the same time. They should not. Question dismissed.November 15, 2021 11:57 am at 11:57 am #2028489mesivta bachurParticipant
>Aseres Hadibros (Ten Commandments, for the uninitiated.
Last time I checked dibra did not mean commandment. If we had the aseres hamitzvos that would be different. while of course KA”V is a chiyuv, to say that the aseres hadibros are commandments shows a lack of initiation on your part.November 15, 2021 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #2028566
AAQ – shma bekolah was said to Avrohom about this particular event. Don’t forget that she was a navi’ah too, and bigger in nevuah than Avrohom at that.
Avrohom isnt a “guy”.
Chazal say ishah keshereh osah ratzon baalah, not the other way around. They also say bina yeserah, that they are better judges lf character for guests, etc, that husbands should take seriously what their wives say and advise.November 15, 2021 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #2028748
Avira > ishah keshereh osah ratzon baalah, not the other way around.
so, you are saying even ish kosher still does not listen. Sounds true….
A little more seriously, if you do not express your ratzon too much, then you will be easily zoche isha kesherah! The way I learned it that the husband should lead in ruchniyus, but not in gashmiyus, so in most daily issues, there is not much reason to express your ratzon, or even to have it (why have it, if you are not planning to express it). To finish the circle, isha kesherah knows ratzon baalah to begin with (see Bina, above), so there is no need to even bother.November 15, 2021 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #2028772
AAQ, hopefully your life revolves around ruchniyus not gashmius. As such, you should be giving your wife and children direction on how to conduct their ruchniyus daily living.November 16, 2021 10:00 am at 10:00 am #2028970
> hopefully your life revolves around ruchniyus not gashmius.
It takes a lot of ruchniyus to deal right with gashmius! or, sometimes, or sometimes not to deal. And this is where I find family needs most direction. Kids can learn basar& halav fine, but prefer to explain humros to their Mother instead of helping in the kitchen.
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