February 22, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #747713
Hmmm…y’know you might be onto something about this misrepresentation thing you mentioned…something to think about. Thnx!February 22, 2011 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #747714
Mytake, I know some people have mentioned this, but the best advice is:
GET RID OF CLOTHING THAT DOESN’T FIT THE MOLD OF WHAT YOU WANT TO WEAR.
Either donate it or bring it to a seamstress for alterations. If its around, you WILL wear it.
Then, if you can afford it, but some new clothing that fits your model.February 22, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #747715AinOhdMilvadoParticipant
When you talk to yourself,
do you really call yourself mytake?!?!
btw… when I talk to myself, I call myself – “self”!February 22, 2011 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #747716
Not exactly….I do have real name, y’know!February 22, 2011 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #747718
SJS: i feel that even if can’t afford, borrow or charge it. it’s soooo important. if doing it l’shem shamayim as mytake is, it’s a definite mitzvah and Hashem will find the means to help her pay for it.
mytake: hope it helps. good luck!February 22, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #747719cshapiroMember
i was just thinking one day, that my skirts are all too short so i walked into foxs and got 3 skirts for about $20 each, and u know what they are long enough and comfortable….so now i have no excuse :))February 22, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #747720aries2756Participant
The question in your mind should always be “Who am I trying to impress Hashem or humans?” If my job is to be Oved Hashem and bring honor to Hashem then I must follow His rules and do His bidding. If I am on this world to please myself and others, then….February 22, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #747721talking stamMember
Tznius is a lifestyle, not just a length of the skirt. I know you want chizuk in helping you pick the “more tznius” outfit, and of course the halochos are important, but I want to give you a different type of chizuk as well. So much time and effort is spent these days telling women the exact measurements their clothing should be, the colors they should and shouldn’t wear, and it can be very confusing for good, tznius girls who are made to feel guilty because the measurements of their clothing don’t meet a certain rabbi’s requirements. In this process, the concept of tznius is completely lost.
As another commenter said, it speaks in the Torah of Sara Imenu’s Tznius by saying she was in the tent, but do you ever see anywhere mention in the torah of the measurements of her clothing? In fact the laws of the measurements of a women’s clothing is not stated anywhere in the Torah. The proof of the Moavi women not coming to greet bnei yisroel not being a sin because women don’t venture out to greet strangers, this concept as well cannot be applied to the specific halochos of length of skirts and sleeves. People like to say that these days, it is not considered the “norm” for women to stay home, but then again neither is it the norm for women to wear long sleeves and skirts. So of course I am not advocating dressing non-tznius, nor am I at all advocating women staying home, but I am trying to show how this logic is very flawed and only used to make women feel guilty to not living up to Sara Imenu’s lesson of “hineh baohel.”
If you are having a personal struggle with tznius, I wish you strength and perspective. Strength to overcome your personal yetzer hara and to dress and act b’tznius with simcha; and perspective to realize that it is not your only mitzvah, it is one of many, and it will not determine the blessings or tragedies that befall the jews, just as you leaving your house to go to work will not determine these things.
And as a last note, for the male commentors on this thread, and for all males who feel the need to discuss this topic, the most untznius thing on earth is a man telling women how to dress, especially when he gets specific about the measurements of her clothing and the tightness. Or when he mentions “looking cute” as one commenter here did. This is a women’s area, men are not welcome, and men who come in and give their two cents on this personal women’s topic are vulgar and should not consider themselves frum, at least in the area of tznius. Perhaps Avraham Avinu’s message was for you men, when the malachim asked about his wife, Avraham basically answered them she is not your concern, mind your own business.February 22, 2011 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #747724
Ok, I really appreciate you trying to help me out here, but I gotta take issue with one line:
“…Strength to overcome your personal yetzer hara and to dress and act b’tznius with simcha; and perspective to realize that it is not your only mitzvah, it is one of many, and it will not determine the blessings or tragedies that befall the jews…”
Although Tznius is not my only mitzvah, it’s a special challenge (and gift, as we’ve come to learn here on the thread) given to us women. And, you better believe it plays a pretty serious role in determining the blessings and tragedies that befall the Jews.
I appreciate your good intentions in trying to me be mechazek, but downplaying the significance of this Mitzva/Middah aint gonna do it.February 22, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #747725dunnoMember
Foxs’ has skirts?? Guess where I’m headed this week!February 22, 2011 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #747727
Mentsch1! WOW!!! You can actually announce on YW that your wife buys clothes you disagree with???? Who is she dressing for???
It is a husbands duty to put down the guidelines in his house how his wife and daughters dress!! If you can’t do that, then go for help!February 22, 2011 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #747728popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Who do you think told her to go into the tent?February 22, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #747729
Women generally dress for other women.February 22, 2011 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #747730
Things aren’t always that simple.February 22, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #747731
SJS – you’re right, but we’re wrong. 🙁
a classmate of mine only wears makeup for her husband.
I’m lucky – my husband does want me to look nice when i go out – problem is, i have a problem always looking put together – shaitel, make-up etc. in the house. my husband doesn’t complain, but still that is who i should be dressing up for.February 22, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #747732MDGParticipant
SJSinNYC said “Women generally dress for other women. “
Yes, but the men are also looking (sometimes too much).
Men may not understand a woman’s Y”H for looking good, but women don’t understand a man’s Y”H in regard to tsniut.February 22, 2011 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #747733
actually mdj -that’s a very good point; and mytake, i forgot, but when i finally understood (to the best of my ability) that point, it really helped me in the realms of tznius.
and now, as a married woman, i have no desire to dress not tzniously for that reason.February 22, 2011 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #747734
My take: things are never so simple!!! But really the man has to draw the line on what is and is NOT acceptable in his home!! If she is not dressing to please her husband than WHO is she dressing for?????February 22, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #747735
My response was to a mamin. She asked who his wife was dressing for. I explained. I wasn’t saying its right or wrong.February 22, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #747736
Like you said, things are never so simple. Besides, it’s none of our business how this guy runs his home.February 22, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #747737
My take: I’m only answering on what HE put in the CR. He gave us this info voluntarily.February 22, 2011 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #747738
SJS: i know; i was just commenting on us – i didn’t take it that you thought it was right or wrong.
i understand how single girls don’t dress so tzniusly – don’t truly understand the effects they have on guys. but how do married women dress provocatively – what in the world are they thinking?
except that i think we get immune to certain styles when we see it again and again, and we actually desensitize ourselves.
this posting reminds me of Rabbi Orlovsky’s lecture on platonic relationships. he once spoke in front of boys and girls, stating how boys cannot have platonic relationships. people started arguing with him, until finally one girl realized, that it was only the girls that were arguing, and asked the boys to say something to defend themselves. boys just looked at each other and smiled sheepishly.February 22, 2011 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #747739
For heaven’s sake! The guy was just pointing out how it’s true that men cannot understand a woman’s challenges when it comes to Tznius.
He mentioned that his wife has difficulty with the skirt issue even though he told her that it’s not Tznius.
So what exactly are you answering? He never asked for anyone’s advice or opinion.
It’s none of our business.February 22, 2011 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #747740
My take::: “FOR HEAVENS SAKE” take it literally!! Is someone posts something in the Cr, they are inviting all of us to comment, which I have. If you don’t like what I said, you have a right to disagree. That is your opinion, as I am stating mine!February 22, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #747741
MyTake: I really gave this thread some thought today in school. I was wondering if it made any difference in your way of thinking. I must say, I’m STUNNED!!! I really am thrilled that you’re doing the right thing!! You’re AMAZING!!! Oh, and I LOVED the way you said it’s for your future husband. That makes a lot of sense. I think that when the time comes, you should tell your husband about this… He’ll appreciate it!
Keep strong!! Hatzlacha!!February 22, 2011 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #747742cshapiroMember
Yea, I was impressed that they were so long….well long is all relative…but anyways they def have cute stuff…February 23, 2011 12:36 am at 12:36 am #747743
Hi im new to this discussion and want to say thank you its a real inspiration to see the useful ideas in dealing with this nisayon. i on the other hand have a bit of a different problem. i really want to wear skirts that are a bit longer (more than 2 inches below my knee) b/c i feel that when sitting and esp. when getting into the car going on a date my streight skirt isnt tznius. however my mother doesnt like my skirts too long and got a psak that 2 inches is enough and the same w/ some of my other clothing id luv the idea of going thru my wardrobe and getting rid of some of my clothing but dont want to upset my mother so what do I do i really want to do the right thing which one goes first Kibud av vaem or tznius? help!February 23, 2011 12:38 am at 12:38 am #747744popa_bar_abbaParticipant
which one goes first Kibud av vaem or tznius?
Even assuming she is not telling you to break halacha, it is still highly questionable if there is kibud eim where the issue does not affect her.February 23, 2011 12:42 am at 12:42 am #747745
looking2grow: Wow, that’s a tough one. I really admire you for wanting to improve ur tznius. I don’t think any of us can pasken correctly, since we are not exactly rabbonim. I heard that you’re supposed to wear four inches below your knee. The point here isn’t inches though. Bottom line: your knees must be covered at all times. If two inches isn’t enough, then phrase your shaila this way. Say it doesn’t really serve the purpose.
Hatzlacha in whatever you do!!!!February 23, 2011 12:47 am at 12:47 am #747746canineMember
Insist your mother tell you which rav gave that ‘psak’, and then call him. If you can get no name, assume it doesn’t exist. You are absolutely correct, 2 inches is not enough for all situations like getting into/out the car for example.February 23, 2011 12:48 am at 12:48 am #747747
but it causes arguments and my mother to get upset so i figured its best to give in and not cause my mother heartache. however after reading a bit about tznius im having doubts and not sure what to do i really want to be myself which means dressng a bit differently than wht my mother wnts but wht can i do i def cnt get rid of the clothing i bought and what about the future its so confusing and kibud av vaem is part of the aseres hadibrosFebruary 23, 2011 12:59 am at 12:59 am #747748
First Daven that Hashem give you the Daas to see what’s right. Second, ask Daas Torah. I’m sure they’ve already heard of a case similar to yours.February 23, 2011 1:09 am at 1:09 am #747749
canine: im sure my mother got it from a reliable Rav and its def not my type of thing to do to call that Rav. My mother is a really special person and just wants whts best for me shes worried cuz im “in the parsha” and have to look good observateen: i agree ideally 4 inches is best i wish i was up to that level.February 23, 2011 1:12 am at 1:12 am #747750
observateen: thanks ur absolutely right. but i dnt want to ask the family Rav cuz its so personal and i dnt know who else to ask i feel so uncomfortable any recommendations?February 23, 2011 7:59 am at 7:59 am #747751
that’s a really tough question, but i think the question goes even deeper. what if the type of guy you’re looking for is different from what your mother wants for you?
do you have someone (a teacher or something) that can talk to in order to help you figure out who you really are and what truly want. then have a respectful heart-to-heart talk with your mother, and explain (if it’s true) that the type of guy you’re looking for, would davka be looking for someone who’s skirts are longer and maybe would be turned off if skirt didn’t totally cover when getting into a car, etc. it’s not about halacha, but about who you are, and you want that how you dress to be a true representation of who you are so can find your particular bashert soon.
hope this helps. good luck!February 23, 2011 10:08 am at 10:08 am #747752DRBParticipant
thanks everyone for the inspiration. today i put on a longer skirt. i didnt throw the others out yet but hopefully soon i’ll have the strength to do it.February 23, 2011 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #747753
Good for you!! Thanks for sharing your victory!! Lots of luck in the future!!February 23, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #747755
binahyesaira: thanks so much what your saying is so true. I wish i did have a teacher that i kept up with but i really dont. BH though I think my mother understands what type of boy Im looking for so at least that is not an issue. I actually did think a similar idea to what you said and I hope Ill be able to find someone to give me the clarity to know what the right thing to do isin this situation and of course most impt is to Daven! Thanx so much! DRB: thats great keep on growing!February 23, 2011 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #747756msseekerMember
Such a beautiful thread with mostly serious, intelligent and helpful comments. MyTake, your little speech to yourself and your future husband sent chills down my spine. Teachers should share your idea with their students. You were makriv a real korban to Hashem. What a zechus. Same goes for DRB and others. Hashem sees our daily struggles and will reward us immeasurably.
P.S. Mods, I appreciate your work behind the scenes to keep this thread on such a high level. Kol hakavod, the zechus is yours too.February 23, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #747757aries2756Participant
If getting in and out of a car is an issue then women should practice doing this when men are not around. Try backing into the seat then swinging your legs in. Use your scarf to cover your knees, so wear a longer scarf or carry it as an accessory, or carry a shawl or wrap which can be used to hold over your knees and cover them. This can also be accomplished with your pocketbook. It is very stylish to carry large bags these days. So practice using them as a blocking or coverup tool.February 23, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #747758
Thanks for posting!
Members: Please continue to post your thoughts/sturggles/triumphs so we can keep this thread going! It’s a tremendous inspiration to so many of us, so KIT!February 23, 2011 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #747759
Looking to grow:: I am SOOOOOOOOO Impressed with you!!! If you were my daughter I would be so PROUD of you!! I agree with the others you need to have a heart to heart talk with your mother, explain to her that it is important to you!! May your search for the right partner come quickly!!February 23, 2011 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #747761
Although I cannot personally relate to your situation (my mother never gives her opinion on my clothes…)I just wanted to tell you that I think it’s great that you want to improve your tznius, and be sensitive to your mother at the same time.
Hopefully, like some of the previous posts suggest, you will find a way to wear the skirts you feel more comfortable in with your mother’s approval.
I don’t know any of you personally so I cannot offer more specifice advice, but good luck and I hope this works out for both of you!February 24, 2011 12:55 am at 12:55 am #747762
wow where should I start!!! i just want to say a HUGE thank you to all of you who gave me so much Chizuk!! a maamin-wow ur post means so much to me thanks and AMen! this thread is so amazing and ispirational! Only in Am Yisroel where Yisroel aravim ze lazeh!! DRB thanks for sharing and u get a zechus b/c i decided to change into a longer skirt as well so thanx! May we be Zoche to greet Mashiach real soon BBA!!!
this may sound a bit repetitive but im still a bit lost does a/o know if hilchos kibbud av vaem includes dressing in a way that may be at the expense of tznius/the way i would like to dress due to a parents request plus its not tot not tznius so its like longer earrings but not to long 2 inch below the knee…gray areas…I know if def best to speak to a Rav but dnt feel cmfrtble i was wndering if perhaps a/o knows s/o well versed who may know the answer or dealt w/this before…February 24, 2011 1:30 am at 1:30 am #747763
i take the 2nd part of my paragraph back sry i think in general my ques were answered thanx i think its most impt as i forgot who said to speak with a Rebbetzin, Daas Torah and discuss w/my mother these are all really good point if i knew how to edit i wud delete the 2nd paragraph so plz ignore thanks again to all u who contributed I really cant thank u enough and to the person who started this thread what a Zechus i gained so much thank you!!!!!!February 24, 2011 2:28 am at 2:28 am #747764
I was on Torahanytime typed the word Tznius in and did a search. Well its such Hashgacha Pratis HASHEM sent my way the most amazing powerful shiur just what i needed to hear its a real must listen to!!! http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Yehuda_Levin/2009-07-02/Tznius_:_Our_Responsibility/Rabbi__Yehuda_Levin__Tznius_:_Our_Responsibility__2009-07-02.wmv
This is the link im not sure if itll work with me posting it here but if not go onto Torahanytime.com and then type in Tznius and press search and Rabbi Yehuda Levin should come up enjoyFebruary 24, 2011 4:10 am at 4:10 am #747765JamParticipant
” My winning argument to myself this morning was: “Mytake, you are not seriously gonna go out looking like this! You look way too good in this to be sharing it with the general population out there! You will save this look for your husband one day”
Mytake, you truly inspired me!!!
I wish they would tell some of this kind of stuff to the BY girls in HS, its very important and helpful to understand the reasoning for tznius. All i ever remember hearing is:
“your a beautiful diamond! If you would own an expensive glittering diamond ring- you surely wouldn’t flaunt it, you would keep it locked away….”
And all i remember thinking is:
“no I wouldn’t! I would wear it,and i would flaunt it! whats the point of owning a diamond ring and not wearing it ?!?!
It took me till i got to Sem to realize that they forgot all about the nimshal- which is the most important part!
Thanks again mytake 🙂February 24, 2011 5:37 am at 5:37 am #747766🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Thank you so much for this thread. Until now I have had so much trouble understanding people walking out of their houses with their knees showing. Even coming to BY events, even wives of talmidei chachamim. I would get so offended and really blamed those who do it for ‘making it ‘okay’ and making it harder for my daughters not to. And somehow, reading about how you know its wrong but struggle with it, has made an impression on me. I am relieved to hear that it means something and that you are fighting it. I never experienced that type of fight so I always assumed (wrongly) that you just didn’t care. It has defused me and I respect your efforts. Please forgive me for my faulty thinking. The oddest thing is that I’m usually not judgmental, I will always look for another side to every story, but this has always been a difficult topic for me.
As for chizuk, I have to agree with everyone who said to throw it out QUICK while you are in the moment. I had to do that with my baggy sleeves that ‘pretty much cover your elbow as long as you don’t move’ (sounds familiar? Yes I know that it wouldn’t bother me so much in others if it wasn’t a personal issue) I kept saying I shouldn’t wear them anymore but I really don’t have anything else, blah blah blah. Then one day (circa 9/11) I just threw them out!! It was hard but quick and I was so proud. When summer came I had no choice but to buy myself new shirts.
Also, I don’t know if this will help you but it works for me. I say to myself (“self”) if you do this when you shouldn’t, everyone who sees you will feel that much more comfortable doing it too. Do you really want that on your cheshbon? This often works for me, the concept of not wanting to be a michshol to others is more powerful than helping myself.
Again, please forgive me and stay strong!February 24, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #747767
I can really relate to what you said about Tznius not being taught “right” in (most, if not all) High Schools.
Nobody ever tells you in HS that there IS a time and place for looking “too good to share with the general population”. And that Tznius is not about making you suppress the vanity that Hashem put into us women.
But thank God for Gila Manolson! Her books on Tznius, Dating and Love are amazing! (Outside/Inside, Head to Heart, Choosing To Love, and The Magic Touch)
In it, are all the things about Tznius that you never heard in school, and you owe it to yourself to read it!
(Outside/Inside focuses mainly on Tznius, although she write about it in all her other books as well.)February 24, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #747768oomisParticipant
If a mother tells her daughter to do something and that something is NOT against halacha, the daughter is obligated to do as her mother asks,out of Kibud Av v’Eim. The Torah specifies the mitzvah of kibud Av, it does NOT specify how many inches long a skirt must be. As long as the mother is not overes halacha, the daughter who disobeys her IS overes.
With all the nice talk about hiow beautiful this is, the gift of tznius, the inspiration, how proud we all are of the daughter who wants to be mroe tzniusdig, etc. etc. (and you are all correct), nevertheless, in your zeal to promote your particular vision of what is tzniusdig, you lose sight of the halachos that are unquestionably mandatory. For a daughter to basically blow her mother’s wishes off WHEN THE MOTHER IS NOT ASKING HER TO DO ANYTHING WRONG, is far worse than wearing the skirt two inches shorter than the daughter would like, when he shorter skirt is still well within tzniusdig range.
Daughter, please have a long and calm talk with your mom to explain how you feel. There may be a compromise here. Your mom may be feeling that you are heading in a religious direction that makes her nervous, especially if she is a frum lady. When kids become baalei teshuvah, the irreligious parent feels rejected. When an already FRUM parent sees her own frumkeit being perceived as not frum enough for her child, it is very hurtful and an even worse rejection. That happens a lot when kids come home froma year or two of Seminary. See what’s going on and try to explain your feelings to your mom, and show respect for HERS. Explore the possibility that maybe she is not wrong, and try to help her see your persepctive in a reflective and respectful way.
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