Women's Bina Yeseira
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June 19, 2015 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #615869
Maharal on Who Was Created Last
The Maharal says that, though created simultaneously, the asynchronous formation of the first man and woman does have bearing on their relative spiritual makeup. However, the male was formed last.
“There is to conclude that, just the opposite, the woman was created first. Even though concerning the matter that [Hashem] took the bone from bones [to create Chava], and this occurred after the creation of Adam, in the final analysis [we can conclude] [He] [He] [the formation of Chava], the female was created as a pair [with the male]. And then the female [as a distinct entity] was formed [before the male was]
Maharal, Gur Aryeh, Vayikra 12:2, beginning of parshas Tazriah.June 19, 2015 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1208638
“There is to conclude that, just the opposite, the woman was created first. Even though concerning the matter that [Hashem] took the bone from [Adam’s] bones [to create Chava], and this occurred after the creation of Adam, in the final analysis [we can conclude] that Chava was created first. Behold, it is written, “Male and female [He] created them” and “[He] called their name Adam.” It appears that immediately before this [the formation of Chava], the female was created as a pair [with the male]. And then the female [as a distinct entity] was formed [before the male was]. The order of the creation is given as first the mammal, then the woman, and then the male. One sees that the working of the creation is always that the one at a higher level comes last. So here, the male is last since he is more chashuv. In this is the reason behind the saying of the Rabbis that the woman matures more quickly than the man – the girl at twelve and a day and the boy at thirteen and a day. This is the completion of their maturity. This all follows from the principle that each thing with more completeness, its completion comes last.”
Maharal, Gur Aryeh, Vayikra 12:2, beginning of parshas Tazriah.
The Maharal says men have chochma yeseirah. He also says men are more spiritual in general. (Tiferes Yisroel 4 and 28).
Other authorities that either explicitly or implicitly contradict the notion of generally higher spirituality in the female include Rambam, Mishnah Horarios 3:7; Tur, Orach Chaim 46; Akeidas Yitzchak, Bereishis 6; Bartenura, Mishnah Horarios 3:7; Taz, Orach Chaim 46; Zies Ra’anan (Magen Avraham), Yalkut Shemoni, Shmuel 1:1; Vilna Gaon, Even Shelaima 1:8; Baal Shevet Musar, Midrash Talpiyos, Ohs Aleph, Anaf Isha; Rav Tzadock Rabinowitz, Dover Tzedeck, p. 119; R’ Avraham Yitzchak Kook, Olas Re’iah, Birchos Hashachar; R’ Moshe Feinstein, Igoros Moshe, Orach Chaim IV, 49; R’ Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Man of Faith in the Modern World, (Hoboken, NJ: Ktav, 1989), p. 84; Lubavitcher Rebbe, Sichos in English, Iyar-Tammuz 5744, Vol. 21, pp. 69-72; R’ Avigdor Miller, Rabbi Avigdor Miller Speaks, (Brooklyn, NY: Mesorah), pp. 245-246.
As we know, men are commanded to perform mitzvos asei she’haz’man grama, time-bound mitzvos. Women, on the other hand, are not required to perform these mitzvos. What is the reason for this difference? The answer is that women have other important obligations to tend to, which exempt her from these commandments. A woman must know that she is a briah shel chessed, she has been created for the purpose of performing chessed. Being a wife and mother is a very significant role, and it requires her to be selfless and totally dedicated to performing chessed! It takes a woman’s entire effort to succeed in being an efficient mother and wife. Investing her abilities in raising children is very time consuming but is a tremendous zechus for her! (Rabbi Avigdor Miller Speaks, pp. 271-3)June 19, 2015 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1208639
Woodchucks can chuck wood.June 19, 2015 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1208640
A woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.June 19, 2015 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1208641
A woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
That’s the spirit! Now Let’s have a little talk about tweetle beetles….
When tweetle beetles fight,
it’s called a tweetle beetle battle.June 19, 2015 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1208642
When beetles fight these battles in a bottle with their paddles and the bottle’s on a poodle and the poodle’s eating noodles…
…they call this a muddle puddle tweetle poodle beetle noodle bottle paddle battle.June 19, 2015 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1208643
When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle
with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle,
THIS is what they call…
…a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottled paddled
muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!June 19, 2015 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1208644
I’m confused. Doesn’t the pasuk clearly say that Chava was created after Adam?June 19, 2015 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1208645HaLeiViParticipant
It probably means that both were created together as one being. Then, first was ???? ?? ???? and after that was ????? ??? ?????? which, according to the Shita of ??? ???????, means that Hashem closed up the male.
Joseph, is this title of ???? ???? your source of pride? The Maharal actually stresses in other places that this is not a matter of who is better then whom. It is about a position and status.
In a normal, healthy marriage, the husband brings in a certain pride and status. This is what the Gemara is referring to when it says in Kesubos 75:
???? ?”? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??????
In short, even if the husband is a midget, a cheap laborer, or from an uncertain background he is still a source of pride and status for his wife.
Nevertheless, these days this a charged topic, and people can’t understand nuance and detail when they are busy fighting the other end of the same cause. But since you brought it up it should be put in perspective. I’m still not sure, though, what you try to accomplish with these color-war style male cheers.June 19, 2015 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1208646
No, HaLeiVi, I simply quoted the Maharal. My point was in response to a frequently heard misconception (for which there is no actual Torah source – and the above sources contradict) that females are more spiritual than males. What they are trying to do is use it to say that women are more spiritual in general when binah is but one form of spirituality. Men excel in others. Rav Nachman Bullman said the practice of telling women they are more spiritual than men is actually subtly condescending.
And whether or not being spiritual should mean anything to anybody, it is taken to do what TV commercials do, show the man as the fool and the woman as the capable and mature party. This has an effect on marriages, shiduchim, and even mitzvos. When the woman (or man) thinks, there goes the man, off to put on that tefillin that he needs because he is so low – this has a terrible effect on people. Our grandmothers had enormous respect for their fathers and husbands. Not so the women of this generation or even the last generation. If someone doesn’t think that feeds into divorce and confusion among the youth, then they aren’t thinking.
The world today, lead by America, values money and career success – male domains historically. It does not value family, love, community – all the stuff women are good at. It glamorizes career, when most people hate their jobs. The college professors have interesting and easy jobs and they brainwash the youth about the glory of career. So then of course women will want to have one. Talk to the women of the 60s and 70s, how career turned out to be a bust. Many that gave up child bearing years for career and they hate their careers and wish they had more children. The contemporary woman (speaking of general society, not necessarily frum society) is a train wreck. She has lost her binah and her modesty and her warmth and everything that is so special about women.June 19, 2015 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1208647
HaLeiVi: “In short, even if the husband is a midget, a cheap laborer, or from an uncertain background he is still a source of pride and status for his wife.”
“Step down a step to marry a wife (Yevomos 63a) as follows: “It means it’s advisable that your wife should always look up to you.” That’s why Hakodosh Boruch Hu made women shorter than men, that’s the truth. Now, in order that your wife should look up to you, you have to be superior to your wife. Suppose your wife comes from a big, aristocratic family, and you’re from a family of nobodies, it’s going to haunt you all your life; she might bring it up too. Therefore it’s better to marry somebody who is less aristocratic.”
Thursday Nights with Rabbi Miller, Vol. 2, p. 336, tape #491.June 19, 2015 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1208648
Maharal Deroshos Al Hatorah 27:
“However, from this aspect the men need to toil and struggle in Torah without rest night and day. This is why the verse says “tell the sons of Israel,” a phrasing harsh like sinews (the root of the word sinew is related to the word to tell) that invokes the great toil (of Torah study). However, the women are spoken to in a gentle language because they don’t need this so much. Nevertheless, they (the women) are better fit for the divine reward due to their tranquility.”
R’ Avigdor Miller, Q&A 2 (Columbus Publications, 2013) p. 265:
“You have made me according to Your Will. That means I have a great function in life. Someday I’ll be a mother, I’ll raise up Jewish children, I’ll be a creator of human lives to serve Hashem.”
R’ Samson Raphael Hirsch, Judaism Eternal, vol. II, p 58:
“This will-subordination of the wife to the husband is a necessary condition of the unity which man and wife should form together. The subordination cannot be the other way about, since the man as zachar has to carry forward the divine and human messages which through every marriage are to be a living force in the household, and to which the husband and wife are in union to devote their forces. Just as the first command of God though addressed to the man was given through him for the woman as well, just as in consequence Adam should not have thrown over the command of God for the sake of Eve but Eve ought to have subjected her desire to the will of God as expressed to her though Adam, so thenceforward the husband was to be responsible for the task imposed upon man by God and to carry it out in his marriage and household.”
R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Family Redeemed, p. 72:
“Man and woman are both worthy of communing with God, the highest form of human perfection and self-fulfillment. However, the Halakhah has discriminated between axiological equality pertaining to their Divine essence and metaphysical uniformity at the level of the existential personal experience. Man and woman are different personae, endowed with singular qualities and assigned distinct missions in life.”June 19, 2015 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1208649
Were male animals created before female animals or females before males?June 21, 2015 7:34 am at 7:34 am #1208650HaLeiViParticipant
????June 21, 2015 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1208651☕️coffee addictParticipant
i actually had this arguement with my wife, that women aren’t special, they just have a different role than men, i gave an example of a fast food worker making minimum wage, since they have minimal responsibilty they don’t make as much, whereas the manager (men) have more responsibility and therefore get paid more
which explains why women only got not working on rosh chodesh, because they didn’t do the cheit ha’egel whereas shevet levi got working in the mishkan (more of a reward)June 21, 2015 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1208652
Do you have any examples?
Really? Do you have any evidence?
Are you saying that men are not good at valuing family, love, and community? If so, that is very insulting to all men. I see no reason why men and woman would be different in this regard.
First of all, being a professor is not easy. I have several family members who are, and they have worked very hard to get to where they are, and continue to put in maximum effort into their careers.
Second, there are plenty of women who excel in both being a mother, and having a career. Speak to any kollel wife.June 21, 2015 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1208653
And a husband should always look up to his wife.
This contradicts your point that woman are lower than men.
No one is denying that men and women have different jobs. Rav Soloveichik is just saying that they have different jobs, not different levels of holiness.
And it is quite disingenuous of you to quote Rav Soloveichik, when in numerous threads you have disparaged and insulted him.June 21, 2015 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1208654
I thought there was a rule against females are inferior threads.June 22, 2015 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1208655
Females certainly are not inferior. The point is they aren’t superior. (Which is an often claimed* apologetic when some folks are trying to explain away various mitzvos and/or halachas that feminists deem sexist.) *i.e. the notion that women have a higher level of spirituality.June 22, 2015 2:26 am at 2:26 am #1208656
I remember a rabbi saying they got it backwards on the titanic- the men should have been saved before the women- because men have more kedusha since they are chiuv in talmud torah.June 22, 2015 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1208657
Men are saved before women are (all other variables being equal) because men have more kedusha since they learn Torah. Its a gem in horayos.June 22, 2015 3:10 am at 3:10 am #1208658
newbee: It is a befeirush Mishna that’s paskened as halacha l’maaisa in Shulchan Aruch.June 22, 2015 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1208659
I have yet to find one Rabbi tell me l’maaisa we save a man before a woman in an emergency, or that we follow any of that hierarchy when it comes to saving a life l’maaisa.
But I thought we were not allowed to say these things, and are only allowed to say that women have more kedusha than men, and the only reason they are pattur from talmud torah is because they have so much kedusha to begin with, they dont need to learn.June 22, 2015 4:06 am at 4:06 am #1208660
newbee: No rabbi told you that since, Baruch Hashem, you’ve never had such a sakanos nefoshos shaaila. But Shulchan Aruch clearly paskens like that (based on an open Mishna and Rambam). Do Shulchan Aruch, the Mishna and Rambam cut it for you?June 22, 2015 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1208661
Rav Avigdor Miller: Is there a difference between the Neshama of a man vs. a woman?
“In neshamos there is no difference. Hashem gives people different ways different opportunities to perfect their neshama. When a woman is married and she dedicates her life to others, she’s doing something that transforms her nature. It’s impossible for her to function successfully and to remain selfish.
Her main achievement is transforming her neshama by doing chesed (kindness) to Hashem’s people for the sake of Heaven.
She has all the functions of other people upon her. She has to carry children with in her, and then she has to nurse the child. She has to worry about children at night; sometimes they’re not well. She has to think about preparing food for everybody. Everything is for others.
She does it selflessly like a busy Jewish mother usually does. It’s an extremely important achievement for her neshama, and she gains perfection in that way. We don’t expect her to devote hours to Torah learning. Her main achievement is transforming her neshama by doing chesed (kindness) to Hashem’s people for the sake of Heaven. (If it’s done properly, it’s not merely done like gentiles do, but it’s done with the intention of serving Hashem.)
A man has other opportunities. A man is not limited; he doesn’t carry a child within himself. He doesn’t have to nurse babies. Nevertheless he has to do many things. He has to go out to the marketplace, make a living. And there are many nisyonos (tests) in making a living. All the laws of choshen mishpat (business dealings) apply when you have to compete with other people for parnassa (livelihood).
Therefore a man gains his perfection other ways, and is expected also to give part of his efforts to learning Torah and doing more mitzvos than a woman is able to do because she is busy. Each one gains perfection in a different way. (#791, 10 Aspects of Shabbos)”June 22, 2015 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1208662Sam2Participant
newbee: The Gemara doesn’t say it’s because of Talmud Torah. It says it’s about Chiyuv in Mitzvos.
Joseph: It is not at all clear that that’s actually referring to physically saving lives. It’s a big Machlokes Achronim.June 22, 2015 5:25 am at 5:25 am #1208664
The “women who don’t recognize their inferiority” thread also made no claims that women are inferior.June 22, 2015 5:26 am at 5:26 am #1208665
Sam: Can you please specifically cite which machlokes you refer to? My reading of the Mishna, Rambam and S”A on the halacha l’maaisa is pretty straightforward. Which Achronim have a machlokes whether it’s “actually referring to physically saving lives”? How else could the words of the Mechaber in S”A be possibly read?June 22, 2015 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1208666Sam2Participant
Joseph: See Tzitz Eliezer 18:3 (maybe 18:2, somewhere around there) and who he quotes. Not everyone holds “L’hachayos” means saving lives.June 22, 2015 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1208667
I don’t quite understand the Tzitz Eliezer (18:1). He writes the din isn’t cited as halacha in the S”A, but in fact it is at YD 252:8. I also don’t see anyone else who understands it as he. The Bais Yosef, Rama, Shach, Taz and the Igros Moshe all understand and pasken it simply as it says.June 22, 2015 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1208668
Sam2:The beis yoseph says its reffering to saving life mamish. The main mitzvah being talmud torah but mitzvos in general.
For women i think it was ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? Go ask a rov lemaisa if you should save a man before a woman all else being equal and you will get the same answer. If you dont, I would like to know who.June 22, 2015 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1208669June 22, 2015 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1208670
Rav Moshe writes that all things being equal we do follow the order specified in Shulchan Aruch and the Mishna.June 22, 2015 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1208671
Joseph, thats why we have a rov of a community to pasken for us. Did you ask your rov the question yet?June 22, 2015 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1208672
Unlike yourself, I didn’t have a lmaissa pikuach nefesh scenario. I’ve asked and the answer was always as per the psak in Shulchan Aruch. And the Rama, Shach, Taz and Rav Moshe. You weren’t quite clear what your Rov said about gender-based after explaining the Kohen vs. Yisroel shtickel to you. But the S”A and Mishna are clear as are the others I just mentioned. I’m not sure why you are still doubtful or ambiguous considering this has is the halacha cited in the Mishna, S”A and contemporary poskim.June 23, 2015 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1208673
I guess most contemporary poskim hold by the tzitz that its not referring to a case of life.June 23, 2015 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1208674
So far all the poskim I’ve seen hold like the Shulchan Aruch and Rav Moshe. (As well as the Rama, Shach and Taz.) The Tzitz appears to be a daas yochid on this with a unique pshat (that he agrees is a chiddush) that I haven’t seen any other posek say as he. All the other teshuvas learn it as it is pashut written in the Mishna and by the Mechaber that it is referring to saving a life.June 25, 2015 2:19 am at 2:19 am #1208675
“Talk to the women of the 60s and 70s, how career turned out to be a bust.”
Hahaha. I know you didn’t speak to any of them, because then you would suddenly be surprised to see how wrong your are.
“Many that gave up child bearing years for career and they hate their careers and wish they had more children.”
Maybe, maybe not. I know women who had few children because of their career and today are perfectly happy with their decision. I know women who juggle large families and a career and are happy with that decision. And I know MANY women who devoted their lives solely to raising children and today regret not having a career.
“Our grandmothers had enormous respect for their fathers and husbands. Not so the women of this generation or even the last generation.”
Koheles: 7:10: (I’ll skip the hebrew-I’m sure you know this pasuk) “Don’t say the days before us were better than today, because not from wisdom are you asking this…”
We know that women were forced to tolerate many abuses from men in the past and were not always able to do anything about it-that’s a historical fact… so does that for you translate into respect?? Besides, respect is something to be earned, not something you get automatically because you are male. If you or the men in your life are feeling disrespected, then earn that respect instead of trying to keep putting women “in their place”.
“Our grandmothers had enormous respect for their fathers and husbands. Not so the women of this generation or even the last generation. If someone doesn’t think that feeds into divorce and confusion among the youth, then they aren’t thinking.”
So you think people are getting divorced because women don’t respect men?
“It does not value family, love, community – all the stuff women are good at.”
Family? Ok, you want women to raise the children. Love? I can tell you aren’t married. That’s 50/50 the man and woman. Community? What?? You want women to remain at home raising children. Not being community leaders. Not going to shul all the time. Not being part of any communal organization or chas v’shalom speaking in front of men. Nor having careers where they are leaders because it will “erode their natural sensitivities and softness”.
“It glamorizes career, when most people hate their jobs.”
Really? I don’t know what kind of people you hang around. But most of my friends like their job/career.
Jospeh, you need a serious reality check.
I am not going to argue with you on the halachic/hashkafic plane because we have different frames of reference and it’s a waste of time.
But for heaven’s sake, stop saying all these things as if you know. You are just parroting things you are reading without ever stopping to see if they reflect reality.
Sit down with some women and speak to them. Hear them and listen to what they have to say. If you do this with an open mind, you will find that much of what you are saying in not true. Your image of “the happy housewife” is often a woman on anti-depressants who would do well with a job to lift her out of the repitition housekeeping often entails. You will find that in the 21st century, a women doesn’t necessarily have to choose between a career and family. You will find that the children of homes where the mother did not work are not necessarily better off. You will find women with high-powered careers who have large families and nurse their babies (it’s not thaaaat limiting). Maybe you don’t speak to women and that’s fine. But then stop speaking about them as if you know anything on the matter.
The comtemporary women is a train wreck? Care to explain what that means? Do you know any “comtemporary women”?
I’m not sure why I am wasting my time on this, after all, you ARE Jospeh. But I encourage you to critically analyze the things you read (not sure if your hashkafa allows for that but whatever) and see if they match with reality.June 25, 2015 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1208676
You certainly make Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinam proud. You are speaking from a secular feminist perspective, not from a frum woman’s perspective. Not even from a normal suburban secular perspective. That is our different sets of frame of references.
P.S. All the above assumptions you made are incorrect.June 25, 2015 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1208677
Are you a frum woman?June 25, 2015 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1208678
Yes I am a frum woman.
And Jospeh, you can thank Betty Freidan and Gloria Steinem for allowing something like Lakewood to ever exist. (I never read Gloria Stienem and only ever read some snipptes from Betty Freidan, so you cannot say I got this “tainted hashkafa” from them.)
Joseph, please dont miss the point. It’s not about you being the “frum” hashkafa and me being the “feminist apikorus”. It’s about making you aware that you have no idea what you talking about with your grand assupmtions about what makes women happy and how they think. And yes, I speak for the Lakewood wife too. When it comes to this, I’m pretty sure I know better than you.June 25, 2015 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1208679
You most assuredly do not speak for the normative or average Lakewood wife. Your views are very far from theirs. You’ve made quite a number of assumptions in your earlier dissertation, with none of them being on target.June 25, 2015 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1208680
As you are a frum woman, it follows logically that your perspective is a frum woman’s perspective.
Now is Joseph a frum woman?June 25, 2015 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1208681
bais yakov maidel – While I agree with everything you have said to Joseph in this last post, I have to disagree strongly that you are speaking for women in general. There may be many, many others who agree with you, but there are so many, many of us who couldn’t disagree more. I for one, have never met anyone who thinks like you do tho I do not doubt your word. I would only ask, respectfully, that you, also, not generalize or make assumptions about women and what makes them happy. And please don’t give the impression that you are a majority because I don’t think either one of us could possibly know if that is true. Represent your side, as will I, and the others can speak for themselves.June 25, 2015 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1208682
Joseph – you have always had the habit of imposing your ideals on others as truth, and assuming you can speak for any women, when you have made it so clear that you are not of the type who would have conversations with them, is ludicrous.
My only question for you (if I wanted an answer, which I don’t) would be if you are making it up for the sake of getting a rise out of people, or if you actually have convinced yourself this stuff makes sense.June 25, 2015 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1208683
My apologies. When I said I “speak for the Lakewood woman” I meant that among Lakewood women, there is a significant number who would agree with me. I did not mean that all Lakewood women would agree with me. And that’s ok. I just don’t like Joseph’s sweeping assumptions that ignore reality.June 25, 2015 4:42 am at 4:42 am #1208684
I just don’t like Joseph’s sweeping assumptions that ignore reality.
im right with you. and even more odd is that there are others out there agreeing with him….June 25, 2015 5:04 am at 5:04 am #1208685
The modus operandi of feminists, much like their ideological comrades-in-arms in the toeiva lobby, is to create a new reality, not to reflect the actual or traditional reality.June 25, 2015 5:40 am at 5:40 am #1208686
Joseph, that is a made-up, unsupported statement.June 25, 2015 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1208688
Woman is freed from a number of positive commands the observance of which depends on a certain time of the day or season of the year. The Jewish man thanks the Lord for having a much greater platform of duties. But woman has an excellent argument. She is willing to recognize the larger quantity of her husband’s obligations. Her major duties have to do with the spirit of the home and the education of the children which are decisive for the welfare of the family and the future of the nation. What she loses in quantity, she more than regains in quality. It is therefore that with a smile on her lips and deep satisfaction in her heart, she blesses the Lord, “Who has made me according His will.”
Rabbi Leo Jung , Between Man and Man p. 22
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