Work vs. Kollel
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- This topic has 108 replies, 45 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 7 months ago by Meno.
August 18, 2013 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1176721Yayin Yashan B’Kli ChadashParticipant
Contrary to popular opinion, one does not have to enjoy his learning. A famous rosh yeshiva, when speaking to a bochur who did not enjoy learning, said he hadn’t enjoyed learning since the holocaust. That didn’t make him run off to work, and should not make us. Someone who battels will not start learning more when he gets a job. See what the Mishnah in avos says about one who comes to the bais medrash and doesn’t learn, and the shulchan aruch (orech chaim siman 150?) about just sitting in a beis medrash. That is besides for being protected from corrosive outside values. Speak to a posek instead of making up your own opinion. Yiddishkeit is not a democracy, and Hashem and His shluchim don’t need your performance reviews. BTW, the Mishnah about “haomer mah naeh ilan zeh” is explained that since travel is a makom sakanah and he stops learning, he loses his meginah. Someone who didn’t start learning never had that protection. The Mishnah is saying that even though one can gain spiritually from the world, NOTHING COMPARES TO LEARNING TORAH.August 19, 2013 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1176722jbaldy22Member
@yayin yashan bkli chadash
“Someone who battels will not start learning more when he gets a job.”
I have heard from people much greater than you that this statement is incorrect.August 19, 2013 5:37 am at 5:37 am #1176723
With a respected Profession, no one “slides” into it.
There has to be high visible barriers to entry, and only the most capable and committed get in. Think “medicine”.
Many of the admonitions mentioned in Perkei Avos are for those who represent Torah to the Jewish people.
If someone cannot maintain a proper mode of dress that adds to Kavod (respect for) HaTorah, it is better that he not become a Torah Professional.August 19, 2013 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1176724
interjection – I guess I haven’t made myself clear. I’m not against people taking breaks, it’s the frequency of the breaks and the little disruptions here and there that indicate the seriousness of a guy’s commitment to his learning. Having seen that most guys display behaviours that don’t reflect a full-time commitment to learning it seems to me that they aren’t. Sure, if you need a break by all means take one (they have breaks in the workplace too) but if every time you get a text you “need to quickly reply, just one sec” or if you break off in the middle of your learning and have a shmooze with your chavrusa at the shtender or with a guy who’s walking past that you just need to say hi to, well that says something about how you feel about learning.
jbaldy22 – That’s very true.August 20, 2013 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1176725twistedParticipant
I was zoche to learn mornings through my college years and then some till a few years of marriage. My rosh yeshiva was against the concept of pubicly supported kollel (the tax really belongs to “asarah batlanim”). In most of my working years I was zoche to spend 3 hours in a bais medrash(including a shacharis). Today I am in EY and I try to keep my hespek in a local (sort of empty at that hour) bais medrash. Because they are my community, I support the kolelim that fill the place at other shifts. As a supporter, they send me a yearly compendium of their stuff. I found it lackluster and boring. Maybe they just need better editing?August 20, 2013 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1176726chaya.estherMember
“This is so sad. The original post highlights one of the unfortunate aspects of internet life. Anyone, regardless of qualifications, intelligence, level of responsibility etc., can post their personal pet peeves, based on nothing, and be given a forum to express it in.
On the chance than I am right, how sad for an irresponsible poster who in his ignorance derides such a group.
And oh, what becomes of those that are from the percentage that are as the poster describes? They generally fall out and leave kollel, unable to handle its rigors, eventually becoming posters on the internet, with a message of negative view of kollel life!
Additionally, to all of those that harp on the rambam and those that say that one should work while learning (see bais yosef, shach, aruch hashulchan, igros moshe, biur halachah, chofetz chaim in shem olam for a detailed discussion as to its application today, this is not the place for an idealistic debate), why is their kanaus limited to the learners that are not mekayim the being nehneh from their own work (which the chofetz chaim describes as at best midoh tovah) and not to the much larger groups of “earners” that are not mekayim the “aseh torascho kevah” which is, and always has been, the very basic fundamental obligation of every male Jew?
Must be that those type of people either don’t post on the internet of if they do are more controlled and responsible.
How about I ask my husband to take a hidden video of just the guys that disturb him when he is trying to learn.
I think it will be crystal clear to everyone that the harshest critics on CR are actually being kind and understating the problemAugust 22, 2013 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1176727
Any Profession with low barriers to entry will attract fraudsters.
If you have one Rosh Kollel who believes that virtually every Jewish man should be in Kollel; he will get all the fake learners.August 22, 2013 9:29 am at 9:29 am #1176728dveykus613Participant
I only read the first several posts but I have to say a few things, coming from a kollel wife (for 12 yrs+ B”H!!):
1) Whether other people “battel” or not, look at your own level of learning and try to improve (working or not) – stop looking at others!
2) I have seen over the years even though my husband was NOT one of the “coffee breakers” that he and many others are somewhat less serious when they first start kollel when they first get married even though they totally believe in it (who are other pple to judge someone else’s yetzer hara?!) but over several years in kollel he and many of his peers have become serious talmidei chachamim who now do take every second seriously and would like to spend any spare minute with a sefer. But had they not stayed in kollel with the argument that they don’t keep a sefer in hand every second then, they would never be where they are today – not in knowledge and not in lack of batala!
3) to all those who argue that “money will run dry” – I agree that “al pi teva” it does seem that way, but please realize that all money belongs to Our Father in heaven and He gives and He takes whether you work or not (I have friends with 2 incomes who struggle more than us), and if you are doing ratzon Hash-m for your tafkid (whether that is sitting and learning or making a kiddush Hash-m in the workplace) then you shouldn’t worry and anything that was gozeir to come to you, will. and if you ask a ton of kollel people (at least in eretz yisrael) they will tell you that they live from month to month b’derech neis but that Hash-m always does send them the money they need
any gadol will tell you that if you are cut out for learning you should unless circumstances show Hash-m is guiding you to a different tafkid….we won’t have gedolim in the next generation if pple don’t sit and learn til old age, it’s not for everyone but pple that can, should – ask your LOR
As to pple who say the rambam and others didn’t learn full time – 1) while the rambam does say one should work, the rambam says in another place in mishneh torah that the definition of a working person is someone who works 3 hrs and learns 9 hrs – show me “working guys” today who really do that amt of learning!
and 2) gedolim and rabbanim have said that having pple in learning without working is a horaas sha’ah for our generation specifically where there is so much shmutz and treif in the working world, that klal yisrael would not survive spiritually intact unless we have many who stay in the bubble of torah – it’s not easy and perhaps it’s not for everyone but for whoever can do it, they do have greater odds of staying spiritually intact. If you take issue with that take it up with the gedolim!August 22, 2013 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1176729
dveykus613 – 1) Who says those who don’t think everyone should be in full-time learning aren’t mindful of how they can improve their own learning? Plus giving criticism where it is deserved is not just the realm of the personally perfect.
2) And what of all the time that he wasn’t learning? Why is that excused because he now is more serious?
3) Except the Gemoro disagrees with you. We pasken like R’ Yehuda. The Gemoro says “harbeh asu k’R’ Shimon v’lo alsa b’yadam”, which the rishonim explain to mean that neither the parnassa nor the learning was alsa b’yadam. The Maharal in his pirush to the Mishna in Avos that says “kol Torah she’ein imoh melacha sofah lihyos beteila” asks about those in full-time learning and gives two answers: a) presumably they have businesses (i.e. melacha is any form of parnassa not just manual or professional labour) and b) those who we know do not have businesses may perhaps have reached such a madrega as you describe where HKB”H provides for them, but qualifies this statement by saying that there are very few such people. Now do you really think that more people in our dor are on that nmadrega than in the Maharal’s dor?
And I’m not even going to dignify your statement about people in learning having a better chance of staying “spiritually intact” with a response.August 22, 2013 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1176730truthsharerMember
Who is Hash_m? Do you mean Hashem?August 22, 2013 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1176731
Is that when you add Hash (weed) to your Kiddush? Please don’t talk about your drug usage on this website.August 22, 2013 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1176733webwrightMember
In every generation there needs to be 36 Chachomim in kollel. Everyone else there is superfluous.August 22, 2013 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1176734wallflowerParticipant
Hash-m is equivalent to G-d. Grow up.August 22, 2013 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1176735jbaldy22Member
“Whether other people “battel” or not, look at your own level of learning and try to improve (working or not) – stop looking at others!”
The problem is that working guys support the system in many facets – of course they should get a say. and as i showed a previous poster there are rishonim who would not agree with our system in a situation where there is batala. you have to understand that you are in most cases being machmir on someone else’s cheshbon and unless you are serious about it, it is gezeila just like wasting time in any other job.
also many gedolim would tell you if you have kids and no money to support them that you should go to work – the problem is that many learning guys ironically do not have a rebbi and/or do not ask these questions to a rav.August 22, 2013 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1176738
Hash-m is equivalent to G-d. Grow up.
Chumra creep. Nothing wrong with saying God either.August 22, 2013 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1176740chaya.estherMember
Dveikus…dont just spout your seminary indoctrination…think about you are saying… Twelve years and your husband taught you so little…Zeh Chaval!!
1) Yes, one should look at oneself.. However, that wasnt the point of this thread. If one buys a car,house, stocks etc… One does an analysis and due diligence of the value of the investment..If thats true with gashmius, all the more so with ruchnius… There needs to be a Vanguard-like evaluation survey of the perspective avreich… Is the prospective shver, wife, Clall Yisroel making a prudent investment..
2) Actually, my experience is radically different. The most motivated ones with good work-study habits really grow. The ones who are there because of social and family pressure feel like they are doing solitary. You are describing guys, who grew up and realized that either they need to get serious or get a real job so they straighten up. That is very laudable and admirable. However, I dont believe these are the ones who become R Elyashiv.
3) You clearly never saw a Chovos Halvovos or Mesilas Yesharim in your life.. Unless you are Toraso Umunuso and are exempt from tefila, (this hasnt existed since the Amoraim), YOU ARE MCHUYIV TO MAKE HISTADLUS…. If you are cursing out Lapid, and protesting cuts the Zionist govt is making in money that the Brisker Rov and others warned not to take in the first place, then you are a lot further from the lofty madreiga you write about then the most pruste working guy in NY…
4) If you bothered to study the Rambam in depth, with the commentaries, you’d find that the shiur of 3 and 9 was according to the generation. In our times most ppl need to work a lot more hours for the basics.. The Rambam was very against healthy able bodied men taking handouts and charity..August 22, 2013 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1176741
to all those who argue that “money will run dry” – I agree that “al pi teva” it does seem that way, but please realize that all money belongs to Our Father in heaven and He gives and He takes whether you work or not “
Dveykus with all due respect – you are admirably an eishes chayil and your husband is lucky to have you, but you are also being a little naive when you state what you did. None of us is privy to Hashem’s Cheshbonos. Hashem gives money to people who earn it. If they sit and do nothing all day, or if they sit and learn all day, if SOMEONE is not earning something to pay the bills, eventually they will starve. There is no money tree in my backyard, and I would think presumably not in yours, either.
We believe that our parnassah is decreed Rosh Hashanah time, but that does not exempt us from responsibility for our hishtadlus in earning it. Out zivugim are decreed before we are even born. But if a girl sits in her house and never goes out on a date, chances are highly unlikely her zivug will walk up to her door and say, “I’m your zivug, let’s get married!” Likewise, though one’s parnassah may in fact be a Gezairah, you have NO idea HOW that Gezairah is meant to be implemented. The only person who got a freebie in life was Odom Harishon, and look how he messed that up. When that happened, Hashem Said, “No more food stamps,” (or something like that.. you get the idea…).
I recommend that ALL young couples who have a similar hashkafa as Dveykus, should have a good shmuz with their Rov and ask him if the money will fall from the sky for them. They might be surprised by the answer.
As for being spiritually intact – well, it is easy to be a good Yid when you ONLY live in a Torah bubble. But that is NOT what Hashem Told us to do. Lo baShamayim Hee. We have to learn how to remain spiritually intact in this world, so that we are worthy of the Next One. That does not come from removing ourselves from the world around us, but rather by living in it in a way that makes it a better place. JMO.August 22, 2013 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1176742
gavra at work-_ thumbs up for your remark on chumro creep! Hash-m is ridiculous!August 23, 2013 10:38 am at 10:38 am #1176743
And there you have it. All the typical cynics. Finally they come out and say their real feelings. It is so horrible I will not copy, but look at ROBs last line.
He finally spelled out in no uncertain terms what he and his ilk feel. Oy. Oy. And this gets published?August 23, 2013 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1176744
nishdayngesheft – I really hope you were joking.
You cannot be implying that ROB was calling the Ribbono Shel Olom ridiculous. If so, you grievously err. I think most people ralized he meant that writing Hashem minus a letter, is silly. The name “Hashem” is already a kinui for the Shem that we only say in Tefilah or brachos.August 23, 2013 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1176745
r-bbiofberl-n – Thanks.
dveykus613: Different mindset. Everyone else may as well be talking to a Hare Krishna (or a Feegle) when trying to discuss the issues.
My original post still stands. As long as you are not living off the backs of others, Kol HaKavod.August 23, 2013 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1176746Just EmesMember
The Halachos of Work/ Kollel:( in my understanding R AYF)
1) Shulchan Aruch OH 155,156 clearly states: a) that one should daven in the morning b)then learn after davening(ko’vey’ah itim)- c)and then go to work because without work one will come to sin.
d) However even when one works he should make his Torah learning ikar /primary and his work secondary/temporary.
The question is obvious -what about kollel/sitting in learning?
A:So the Biyur Halacha( The Chofetz Chaim) writes OH 156– that the Shulchan Aruch- which says to go to work – is refering to the general public–but individuals who want to sit and learn – Hashem will support them as the Rambam writes. This concept, that most people will work and individuals will only learn is learnt from the Gemarah in Brachos _ many did like R’ SBY and it didn’t work. Many did like R’ Yishmael and it worked. Therefore even though ‘learning only’ didn’t work for most people – for some -it did- and those individuals will only learn and Hashem will take care of them.
The question now becomes: Well that’s only for individuals- what about today where many frum men learn in kollel?
A:1) After the Churban (holocaust) where a large majority of Torah was lost (death, exiles etc)- Many Gedolim said that we live in a Horaa’s Sh’aa (special ruling based on time/circumstances) — and since we must rebuild Torah again – more people should stay in kollel because if not there simply wouldn’t be enough thriving Torah for the Jewish people to rebuild itself.
2) Another answer is that in our time many men have not developed their learning skills well enough to go it alone afterword yet-
As well as the fact that “working today” has a lot of temptation from the outside world-(which was not generally available in previous history) and that one should learn in kollel after marriage -at least a certain period of time – to start the young couples new life off in a higher level of Torah learning/scholarship/kedusha etc.. that will lift them higher for their whole lives.
3) Although I quoted the majority opinion regarding working and learning there seems to be minority opinions that hold that mi’ikkar one should spend their time only learning — others would say this is just a Maal’ah (goal to strive for) but not required.
Lastly – the Yerushalmi states in one statement- on the verse of “Ubacharta B’Chaim” / “choose life” that this refers to umanus – getting a job.
So it is very clear that the issue- from a halachic standpoint is not in general whether one is allowed to work- but rather which person are you- and that is up to you (However see above regarding current day realities)August 23, 2013 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1176747
nishtdayngesheft: HUH? Can you please explain what cynicism there is in mine (or gavra’s) comments? All we did is shake our communal heads at the rather ridiulous chumros that sprout up every day. To write Hash-m is most ridiculous and makes no sense!August 23, 2013 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1176748
Just Emes : your comments are commendable but allow me to point out that you ignore many sources for this discussion, which might change many of your assumptions. I will only comment on a couple of your points:
1)you write (2) that the temptations of previous generations during work was NOT as intense as now. Not true. Every generation has its own “nisyionos”. Do you realize how difficult it was to keep shabbos in the US in the early part of the past century? Do you know how difficult it was to get jobs in the nineteenth century unless you declared yourself (chas vesholom) A X-ian? today’s generations have their own nisyonos but don’t underestimate what our ancestors went through.
2) Possibly, after the war and its fearful destruction, there was an argument to develop the Poskim of the new generation (1). We are well beyond that and ,nowadays, it has become a major burden, rather than a mission.
3) Permanent learning is for individuals and not for the klal. This is undisputed by all Poskim, not only a majority (3).August 23, 2013 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1176749
r-bbiofberl-n: Don’t you mean:
n-shtd-yng-sh-ft? Chas Vsh-l-m (after all, Sh-l-m is the name of HKBH) we would include all the vowels and state the name in vain!
🙂August 23, 2013 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1176750
You wrote what you wrote, it would seem to be at a minimum to be a Freudian slip.
You should examine what led to that Freudian slip, and what teshuva could you possibly do.August 23, 2013 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1176751
ND: Why? Its not as if he even said Hashem (which is also meaningless from a Halachic standpoint, and why we use it). Had he said “Amonai” is ridiculous, would you have said the same? How about “Konam”? (which after all means Halachicly Korban L’Hashem)? How about Conan? (as a Konam for Konam).
Where should it end? The Sem girl calling her date “KeliKaKu”? 🙂August 23, 2013 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1176752
[hitting one’s head against the keyboard]
nisht- If we would all be culpable (and misinterpreted) for what we wrote, rosh hashana could not come soon enough!
And since when does Freund occupy such an important place in the Chareidi pantheon? oops- G-d (see, I follow the program!) forbid that I mention something so heathen on this website! They would soon brand me as a follower of the pantheon’s inhabitants….August 23, 2013 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1176753WolfishMusingsParticipant
You wrote what you wrote, it would seem to be at a minimum to be a Freudian slip.
You should examine what led to that Freudian slip, and what teshuva could you possibly do.
Oh, please. At worst, it was a poor choice of words. You knew what he meant, as did just about everyone else reading this thread.
Save the outrage for real issues, not twisted misinterpretations of what ROB meant.
The WolfAugust 23, 2013 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1176754HarotzehbilumshmoParticipant
Just Emes: See the Chofetz Chaim in Shem Olam. I don’t remember the exact location, it is on the section on Torah. If you can’t find it I can, just respond here. There he discusses sitting and learning and therefore having to accept help from others. He is a staunch supporter and that is from before the war.August 23, 2013 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1176755
It took me some time to decipher your reference to a sem girl’s date and then I could not stop laughing!! Absurdity indeed!
wolfish- thank you! You have been the voice of reason on this website for years now!August 23, 2013 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1176756
So it is ok for ROB to be irate about some one who wrote something that is completely ok, but he cannot be taken to task for writing something heinous, even if it was unintentional? Regardless if we could have deciphered what he meant, he clearly was not careful in what he wrote. He was irate that the person used a dash in a word the ROB felt should not have a dash.
This gives us a clear picture of what ???? meant when they say ????? ????? ??? ????? ???. It cannot be clearer.
And it is telling that neither he nor Gavra are horrified but what he actually wrote, regardless of his intention. He should be horrified that he published those words that are now available for eternity attributed to ROB.
And this cannot in any way be considered an ????.
So you all missed the REAL issue.August 23, 2013 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1176757
Gavra – +1
Nisht… We get it, you are concerned about Kovod Hashem. I still believe you saw a mountain when we all saw a molehill.
ROB, are you regretful that you unintentionally and with no malice aforethought or derogation Chas v’Sholom of the R”BSO, used an expression that somehow led someone to misunderstand its meaning? I am sure you are, and will not use such an expression again. Now everyone calm down. It’s almost Rosh Hashana and there are REAL issues for which we all need to do teshuvah (including ascribing nefarious motives to innocent people).August 23, 2013 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1176758ihearMember
i’m sorry “just my hapence” if i sounded condescending it happens sometimes when i get into an argument with someone who is just so amicable,
firstly congratulations on having never smoked a cigarette a true accomplishment in life and definitely something that makes you a better person although i don’t think a better judge of those who do
secondly you mentioned 2 PLACES in the mir that you have learned in surely even you who knows just so much about the yeshiva and seemingly all other yeshivas wouldn’t dare say that you can attest for most peoples either learning or not learning in that specific institution
thirdly i cant honestly say or not say anything about work if one would get the pink slip for doing “various activities” but i can say that sadly you missed my entire point about being motivated, my point was that the reason work is so much easier is simply bec there is a nice monetary incentive and so even if one doesn’t enjoy it per se they can still have tangible accomplishment here and now as apposed to learning where hopefully one must wait 120 yrs for that feeling and definitely doesn’t have it on this earth in regards to housing, cars and other assorted items that working people have that many of us would consider luxuries,
thank you for your time sirAugust 24, 2013 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1176759
nisht- really, chill.August 25, 2013 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1176760
I continue to wonder why they are so cavalier about what ROB wrote while being in such a huff about writing hash-m with a dash.August 25, 2013 1:53 am at 1:53 am #1176761YW Moderator-73Moderator
oh my g-sh. seriously.August 25, 2013 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1176762
Mod 73 LOL!!!!!August 25, 2013 2:44 am at 2:44 am #1176763WolfishMusingsParticipant
This gives us a clear picture of what ???? meant when they say ????? ????? ??? ????? ???. It cannot be clearer.
I continue to wonder why they are so cavalier about what ROB wrote while being in such a huff about writing hash-m with a dash.
Because, apparently, you’re the only one who read it as having a “huff” or in ka’as. RoB simply pointed out (correctly, I might add) that using a dash in that circumstance is ridiculous. That’s not anger or anything even resembling it. Simply pointing out that someone is wrong (or doing something ridiculous) is hardly ka’as.
Again, you seem to be the only one intentionally twisting what he said to be something blasphemous. No one else seemed to misunderstand what he was trying to say.
Let me give you a piece of advice. There have been times when I’ve corrected people in a similar matter (most often concerning capitilizing the first letter of His name). In those cases, I don’t ascribe malice to them for their error, or accuse them of trying to denigrate HKBH. Rather, I simply point out the error.
Had you said something akin to “RoB, you really should be more careful about how you phrase things, as what you said could be misnterpreted as…” no one would disagreed with you. But you chose to deliberately misread what he wrote and ascribe the worst possible meaning to his words.
Next time, try giving people the benefit of the doubt. Ascribe errors to ignorance or poor judgement rather than malice. It’s the right thing to do… especially during the month of Elul. I’m sure you’d want HKBH to give you the benefit of the doubt for your errors which could be misconstrued in a bad light. Do the same for others.
The WolfAugust 25, 2013 5:52 am at 5:52 am #1176764
nisht: I am sorry for having written something that could be misinterpreted. I ask mechilah from HKBH and promise to be more careful next time.
OK??August 25, 2013 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1176765
nishtdayngesheft – If we’re playing psychoanalyst, I think that you’re projecting. Don’t bother trying to argue because you’re just in denial. Trust me, I’m a psychologist (well, a student one anyway)
ihear – Stop moving the goalposts; a specific claim was made – that males have a stronger yetzer horah for females than females do for males – I responded by poitning out that this is untrue logically, biologically and neurologically. You then said that it is true by “a huge margin”:
just take a look at the statistics for “illicit” behavior and men beat women by a huge margin
I, understandably, assumed that “illicit” referred to the matter in hand, i.e. sexual compulsion, thus responding with statistics relating to the proclivity of male and female fidelity.
I had a quick look for your statistics. Well it turns out that it is 57% to 54% which is hardly a “large margin”
(source: statisticsbrain.com from Journal of Marital and Family Therapy)
Now you say that you were, in fact, referring to “various self-control issues”. Do you mean addictions? What kind of addictions specifically? Do you mean that 87% of ALL addicts are male? Well this is clearly untrue. Let’s break down by type: Drugs: Predominance varies by drug type, country and age range. Females between 15 and 18 in Finland are 1.6% more likely to be addicted to amphetamines than males but 1.8% less likely in the UK. (Source: European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, study 2006). However stimulant abuse is fairly even between genders across most countries and ages, and adult women are more likely to be addicted to opiates, but less likely to be addicted to cannabis (Source: Harvard Medical School Study 2010).
Alcohol: Male dominance, 20% to 12-15%, but gap narrowing all the time (Sources: Harvard Medical School study 2010, EMCDDA study 2006).
Nicotine: Males higher, 35% to 23% but females find quitting harder (Source: Harvard Medical School study 2010).
Shopping: Almost even but females ever so slightly higher at 6% to 5.5% (Source: American Journal of Psychiatry, 2013).
Sex (sorry for being blunt mods): Statistics notoriously unreliable as they are based on clinical studies that mostly focus on males (so fewer data available for females) and admittance to treatment centres which is mostly driven by media coverage – more males attend treatment centres but only because the media portrays it as a purely male problem, thus females feel that it is less socially acceptable to admit to having the problem. Twice as many females than males are active on online chat rooms dedicated to sex addiction, suggesting that males are more likely to admit publicly but females more likely to admit privately. (Sources: academia.edu, psychologytoday.com, livescience.com, VaLue, K. “Women and Sexual Addiction: Characteristics, Causes and Cure”, 2010)
Food: Statistics not really available, but generally females outnumber males with most eating disorders by about 10 to 1 in the US (Source: eatingdisorderfoundation.org)
So, tell me, where do you find 87% to 13%?
Secondly, in regards to mir, it was you that brought up the subject by claiming that it could be used as an example showing how all kollel guys are serious, your words:
have you ever even stepped foot into a yeshiva? into the mir? into bmg? into brisk? where are you getting this absolutley wrong information?
I responded that I had been in the mir:
Yup. Learned in the mir for 3 years.
You questioned my having witnessed what I did, further casting aspersions on my integrity and seriousness in learning :
i was also in the mir and i cannot imagine which building you were in that MOST people were doing what you described,unless, and i mean this with no bad conotations at all, you were amongst them and it seemed as if “everyone” was like that
I answered that I had learned in most of the batei medrashim, specifying two:
I spent time learning in most batei midrashim in the mir, but most of the time I was in Beis Yeshaya (both downstairs and Wallmark).
You then decided that I had only learned in two:
you mentioned 2 PLACES in the mir that you have learned in
You then went on to suggest that, contrary to your original claim, mir is NOT indicative of the general:
surely even you who knows just so much about the yeshiva and seemingly all other yeshivas wouldn’t dare say that you can attest for most peoples either learning or not learning in that specific institution
So which is it? Can you say that most people in the mir are learning seriously or can you not?
Finally, your point about monetary incentives is moot. If you can’t motivate yourself to learn without a cash bonus, well you aren’t suited to full-time learning. Kardom lachpor boh, anybody? And, I hate to break it to you, but most working guys don’t have luxury “housing, cars and other assorted items”. Really, we don’t.
(sorry for the long post mods…)August 25, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1176766charliehallParticipant
“he hadn’t enjoyed learning since the holocaust. That didn’t make him run off to work, and should not make us”
Did you listen to the torah reading yesterday? The curses listed there because we did not serve HaShem ??????????? ???????? ?????.August 25, 2013 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1176767
charlie- i dont think he meant it was a good thing. he just meant that although a crucial element of his avodah was lacking, this RY didnt see that as negating his chiyuv to learn alot.August 25, 2013 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1176768
Those who lived thru the holocaust are probably exempt from ??????????? ???????? ?????
For those born afterwards picking a Profession that brings them joy should be an option. For most of us, only if you pick a Profession that brings you joy will you be able to enhance the Profession.
for those who are not Torah Professionals, part time learning is still both an Inheritance and Obligation.August 27, 2013 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1176769
Josh- “Those who lived thru the holocaust are probably exempt from ??????????? ???????? ?????”
who made you God?August 30, 2016 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1176770ChortkovParticipant
Bump.August 31, 2016 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1176771
You mean b-mp 🙂August 31, 2016 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1176772SparklyMember
if my guy wants to go to kollel so be it. if my guy wants to go to work so be it. i dont care as long as his a good frum boy.August 31, 2016 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1176773MenoParticipant
I thought you had mentioned in another thread (probably a few weeks back), that you specifically wanted to marry a doctor because you love science and you need him to make tons of money to support you and your kids. I don’t think there are many kollel guys who are also doctors and/or make tons of money.
(I’m not sure where those posts were but some people here are really good at finding stuff)August 31, 2016 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1176774Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
Meno – what about the Rambam? (okay, I think he was in Kollel first and only became a doctor much later on when he had no choice because his brother who was supporting him died. But maybe that’s Sparkly’s plan as well. He can learn for as long as she is able to support him with her pharmacy business, and then after she has her 15th child B’ezras Hashem and she can’t support the family anymore, he will become a doctor 🙂 )
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