January 7, 2014 3:25 am at 3:25 am #611784
I would like to bring an issue to the forefront that has been plaguing some boys in our community in regard to a group of young men who are looking for their bashert. I am referring to boys that are working or in college. Yes, we are not in yeshiva full time. However, why are we treated like second class citizens?
People need to understand that not everyone will get a shver that will support for 5+ years and not every kollel guy will be able to secure a job as a Rebbi or Menahel. So what is so bad if we, the working guys, choose to start a job that we will be able to support our family when the time comes? When I went to college at age 21, people were looking at me strangely and asked why I felt I needed it. Well, those are the same guys that are now 30 years old and have 3-4 kids with no way to support them.
The point of this letter is not to try to legitimize leaving yeshiva to go to work but rather to shed light on the fact working guys are available and want to get married. Many Tanoim and Admoroim were working people. For example: Navi Amos (farmer), Hillel Ha’Zaken (woodchopper), Shammai Ha’Zaken (builder), R’ Eliezer (naval merchant), Shmuel (doctor), Rambam, Ramban (both doctors), and the list goes on.
A working boyJanuary 7, 2014 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1036163mom12Participant
You are 100% correct.
You are not second class at all!
But it will take a while for the narrowminded
to become broad minded..
This learning boy ‘mishigaas’ will disappear when
girls will finally realize they should be marrying someone
suitable for themselves and not for the neighbor,street, or community!January 7, 2014 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1036164ihearMember
Good post I believe the reasons are as follows
1) nothing is wrong with you if you are a working guy in fact you sound better then many yeshiva guys I know! BUT u must understand that a learning guy is going to be more preferable for reasons that aren’t our discussion right now but they will be, that’s simply what girls want.
2)people understand that they won’t have a shver to support BUT that would give one leeway to go to school while in yeshiva but to go to work I think across the board ppl feel is unnecessary bec even if u are in yeshiva till the day you get married you still won’t starve if u get a job right after you get married and the plus is you were in yeshiva till then! and another plus is not working as a bachur which brings us to …
3)the reason girls will ask if you wear tzitzis is simply because many many working guys DONT (I hate to burst the bubble) but if they are working and aren’t married its easy to drop and fall in Judaism. When one is married they simply won’t fall bec they are “set” in their ways and held there with a spouse
P.s. I don’t think the girls want Rosh yeshivas but many feel a learning guy will be stronger in his yiddishkiet whether that true or not is up for debate.
But I do commiserate with you, you sound like you have ur Priorities right, I”yh you will find the right one bkarove!January 7, 2014 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1036165psikreishaMember
I AGREEJanuary 7, 2014 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1036166popa_bar_abbaParticipant
It’s ok, next generation you’ll be the one who can afford to support a son-in-law in learning, so your daughters will get shidduchim.January 7, 2014 4:13 am at 4:13 am #1036167squeakParticipant
Nu, so the bjj and hadar graduates wont consider you. Youre barking up the wrong tree. Working guys need to set their sights lower, say for working girls.January 7, 2014 4:14 am at 4:14 am #1036168
I and many other girls I know are looking for guys like those you are describing and being given the choice between long term learners and those who value secular studies.
so now I will ask: WHERE ARE YOU GUYS HIDING?????!!!!!!!January 7, 2014 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1036169
ihear: You are missing a big point! If one goes to college and takes out student loans, he would have to work at least part-time to pay up loans. Plus, some professions pretty much require you to start working entry-level, right after you graduate. If you don’t, there will be a major hole in your job resume later on. The OP is 27. Yes, at 23, he fit the standard because he was in yeshiva and college. Now, 4 years later, he is at a point in his career where he has to work at least part-time. He should stay in yeshiva until he gets enagged just so that he can go out with a good girl who is looking for a guy like him but is scared that her friends will stigmatize and she will think she’s “settling” for a sub-par guy. Ridiculous!
I know many learner-earners that learn AND earn better than full-time learners who are only there to go with the flow. Those guys are NOT better than a solid learner-earned. Solid learner-earners exist, because I am one of them!
In Pirkei Avos, it says that “Yafeh Talmud Torah im Derech Eretz” because it leaves no time for sin. One of those sins is bitul torah. HOW TRUE! If you are a serious learner-earner, you won’t have time to be involved with shtusim like movies and TV shows. The system is terribly flawed, and I feel terrible for adam3. May you find your zivug soon!
-Another learner-earner.January 7, 2014 4:24 am at 4:24 am #1036170
Sem613: You may hide when you tell the shadchan you are looking for a guy with a plan but don’t get into specifics.
We don’t hide. You don’t know where to look.January 7, 2014 4:27 am at 4:27 am #1036171
Maybe I need to clarify what I mean. I know that there are girls out there looking for working guys. Its the shaddchanim that dont give us a second look. I have many stories where shaddchanim told me or my friends stuff such as, “I’m busy now because the freezer opens. Maybe in a few months when its a slow time for me Ill re-visit you.”
Then they wonder why I dont answer the phone when they call.January 7, 2014 4:35 am at 4:35 am #1036172
Oh wait, the OP shouldn’t get a shidduch after all. His mother wears a robe and a tichel to the Friday night meal.January 7, 2014 4:46 am at 4:46 am #1036173bygirl93Member
I agree with sem613- don’t know where you are looking for girls- but we are here and that is what alot of us are looking for…
Also, most girls don’t understand that it has to do with age- if a guy who is 21/22 and is working and has been since they were 20/21- is different then a guy who is 23, has a set Seder, and works/ in college- alot of people don’t differentiate based on age (which they should) and just give a blanket learner/earner etc.
Adam3 and friend in Flatbush- keep looking- girls who get that do existJanuary 7, 2014 5:53 am at 5:53 am #1036174yossi z.Member
I feel like I should comment yet as they say, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. What I will say is that I have come from both sides (dating in Yeshiva and dating while being a working boy) and where the shidduch world has come to in today’s day and age is frankly quite a mess on both sides. I would like to propose that we as a community get to the root of this rather than looking at surface issues.
One thing though, I’ve become one of the coffee room ghosts so you could hear from me soon or like the last couple stints I have pulled, you may not see or hear from me for quite a while. Take your chances.
CiaoJanuary 7, 2014 6:11 am at 6:11 am #1036175ihearMember
I totally hear what u are saying about loans and jobs that require immediate entry and there are ways to deal with that issue maybe stop school a semester early that solves both issues I know that was my eitza that way loans don’t take effect till 6 months after u finish school and a job isn’t required till u full finish
2)where did I imply solid earner learner don’t exist actually quite the contrary I said that adam3 seemed better then many guys I knowJanuary 7, 2014 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1036176
Typical Shadchanim don’t know what to do with you, as you don’t fit the mold. Girls out of Sem don’t look for working guys (in general, but this is not a Sem Bashing thread), and that is the typical shaddchan’s target.
My suggestion? Let your friends, co-workers, etc. know you are looking and want THEM to redd you shidduchim.
Hatzlacha.January 7, 2014 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1036177
Adam, I personally know of a couple of wonderful girls in monsey for you. Not sure how you can contact me, perhaps the moderators can help.
Also, a message to squeak – working guys need to set their sights lower? Seriously?? I can show you plenty of working guys who learn a lot more every day, than quite a few who are warming the benches at BMG. It was a disgusting comment.January 7, 2014 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1036178
Working guys need to set their sights lower, say for working girls.”
Squeak, I am sure you did not deliberately mean that to sound as offensive as that line came off. Set their sights LOWER – a working girl is LOWER????? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that EXACTLY who the learning-all-day-in beis-Medrash-boys are marrying??????January 7, 2014 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1036179
Adam, I am totally with you. None of my friends wants a boy who does not earn a parnassah, for their daughters. They want boys who learn every day, but who are realistic enough to understand the concept in ein kemach ein Torah, and to recognize that not all parents are able to provide great financial support, even were they willing to do so. Hang in there. The right girl will recognize your worth. Clearly you have been dealing with the wrong shadchanim.January 7, 2014 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1036180☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Hilarious, squeak.January 7, 2014 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1036181shtusimParticipant
maybe a shadchan can start specializing in “working” boys.
the fathers that are my age were all Torah Vodaas types that went to college at night, and kept sedarim after they started working. and they are all still keeping sedarim. but their DAUGHTERS ALL WANT LEARNERS??
i thought girls want to marry boys like their fathers?January 7, 2014 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1036182WIYMember
I hope she was trying to be funny because otherwise it’s an obnoxious comment.January 7, 2014 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1036183
but their DAUGHTERS ALL WANT LEARNERS??
Sem or Niskatnu HaDoros, take your pick.January 7, 2014 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1036184👑RebYidd23Participant
It’s simple. Workers produce goods. If nobody works, there is poverty.January 7, 2014 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1036185
so the solution is as shtusim mentioned- there need to be shadchanim focusing on working boys. and if the working boys go to them, and then the girls who want working boys go to them, iyH we will have shidduchim.
so where are these working boys shadchanim?January 7, 2014 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1036186
As the father of a working boy (who got married not too long ago), I can tell you that I have seen how shadchanim treat working boys. You would think they were lepers – “Your son works??” Looks like they swallowed a lemon when they said that. Even if that shadchan called back, I would not deal with him/her. How dare they treat him like a second class citizen? Boruch Hashem, he is happily married to a wonderful young lady who comes from a family that has no problems with a young man who is “GASP”!!! working.January 7, 2014 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1036187jackintheboxMember
i think a part of the problem is the brainwashing semineries do to the girls telling them they must marry a learning guy ! thats ludacris !! every single guy and girl are differant and have diff needs ! not all girls need learning guys !January 7, 2014 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1036188wallflowerParticipant
Oh, but EVERYONE deserves the privilege of supporting a talmid chacham, Jackinthebox. What works for one person might not work for the next – that’s why you have to be open-minded if your husband wants to switch kollels. And brainwashing? Everyone’s brain could use a good rinse from the tumah of the outside world.
Clearly, you never went to seminary.January 7, 2014 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1036189
wallflower 🙂January 7, 2014 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1036190jackintheboxMember
i agree everyone deserves that privelege just bringing out another aspect of the problem.brainwashing in that sense yes not in the extereme sense though !
and yeah i never went to seminery ! IM A GUY !;-)January 7, 2014 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1036191
the fathers that are my age were all Torah Vodaas types that went to college at night, and kept sedarim after they started working”
So was my father Z”L, and he was a great Talmid Chochom. He never missed a day of learning, but worked full time since he was a young man.January 7, 2014 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1036192smile19Member
hi im a girl looking for a good boy and I don’t think that working boys are second class at all I would like some one working it shows responsibility as long as he is kovah iytem it seams like im having a hard time finding that in a boy that wakes up erly learns and works. good luck all the best wish thre was a shadcan that can sets up working and good bais yakov girlsJanuary 7, 2014 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #1036193business1Participant
Adam3, thank you for posting such an important message!! I completely agree with you and if anybody tries to tell you anything different, please ignore them. It’s obvious that you have a sense of responsibility because you’re looking ahead and seeing what everybody else doesn’t see or is trying to ignore. I myself hope to marry a working boy. There are plenty of girls like me who wish for the same thing but are afraid to voice it because thy know they’ll be looked down upon. We can’t change society but everyone can change themselves and one thing we all need to work on is to see people for who they are instead of questioning if they fit the mold or not. Adam3, I’m sure the right one will come along soon and you’ll be very happy together. Wishing you luck in all your endeavors.January 7, 2014 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1036194wallflowerParticipant
Joke.January 8, 2014 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1036195👑RebYidd23Participant
Smile19, is this a dating website?January 8, 2014 3:04 am at 3:04 am #1036196bygirl93Member
Shidduch crisis on this thread already- 4 girls to 2 guys…
(Not that I think it’s a crisis- it’s more of a pandemic than anything else)January 8, 2014 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1036197ets319Member
I think I have an outstanding responsible girl for you who shares your values.
Anyway I can get your info?January 8, 2014 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1036198
Nice, the Coffee Room is getting some new shadchanim. Sounds like a plan!January 8, 2014 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1036199kapustaParticipant
There are many girls looking for solid working guys. Skip the shadchanim, talk to people you know.January 8, 2014 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1036200oyyoyyoyParticipant
first, maskim there shud be more working guys shadchanim.
second,I dont know why but it sounds like learning guys are at fault for all of this, so stop hating on them.
my psychological analysis on the situation is, most guys go to yeshiva where they pump up learning a lot, the ones that end up going to work feel like theyre bad people which causes them to really be bad peopleJanuary 8, 2014 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1036201squeakParticipant
Just saw the reactions to my post and I am a tad surprised, but thats OK. One of the things I always liked about my posts is the many different levels on which they could be understood.
The attitudes here are endemic of the shidduch crisis. I have said all along that the crisis needs to be understood through game theory. At the center of the crisis are the “elites”, i.e. the 22-24 year old boys who want to learn and be supported, and the 19-21 year old girls who have been taught to be machshiv torah to the exclusion of all else and have a plan for parnassa. Everyone else falls into other categories. Yet it is common for the non-elites to insist on marrying elites, and to consider marrying someone in their own category to be “settling”. As we have here with a working man who is also the wrong age, who feels that he should be dating the same girls that the most elite boys date, and expects the shadchanim dealing with such boys to treat him the same.
The result is a profound lack of equilibrium, since the number of elites is obviously far less than the number of both elites and non-elites on the other side. A shadchan who wants to succeed has to focus on elites almost exclusively, since non-elites are barely sought after even by other non-elites. So it is not surprising that boys are the focus of shadchanim, because the criteria for elite boys is far more objective than for elite girls. Nor is it surprising when a boy identifies himself as non-elite and finds no one interested in him. It is not a reflection on him but on his society and his values.
Hence my comment to go after working girls. Non elites can win at this game by striving for their own equilibrium, i.e. by looking for non-elites and avoiding the channels that the OP is focusing on. Chasing the elite pool of girls is to his own detriment (not to mention that it directly worsens the shidduch crisis).
Since we’re naming theories these days, you can call this one the Squeaquilibrium Theory of the Shidduch Crisis. Maybe if I had named mine back in the beginning it would have gotten as much attention as the more infamous one.January 8, 2014 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1036203
Squeak, the problem lies right in your comment. When you call a kollel boy elite and a working boy non-elite. I can show you plenty of working young men who accomplish more by being kovea itim than many, many boys sitting in kollel. Sitting in kollel
DOES NOT MAKE ONE ELITE!!January 8, 2014 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1036204
Hence my comment to go after working girls”
See, I KNEW you did not realize how you sounded, and it was not intentional on your part. You referred to working girls as “setting your sights LOWER” (my emphasis)and that was an extremely disrespectful thing to say about “working” girls, who as I pointed out ARE in fact the ones that these Kollel boys are marrying anyway, no?
ALL girls who choose to marry learning boys, must of necessity go out to earn the parnassah. SOMEONE has to. Maybe, following your logic and choice of language, these girls should set their sights “higher” and look for emesdig Torah boys who have a plan to earn a real living, and not look at that as a negative. When did “b’zayas apecha totzi lechem” become assur?
I think it’s time for ALL shadchanim to amend their priorities and realize that things are just not working out so well anymore, based on how they are redting shidduchim. The first and most important thing to look at, is the boy right for the girl in most of the important ways that make marriages strong, and then look at the learning issue. A good boy or girl is a good boy or girl.January 8, 2014 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1036205
Sitting in kollel DOES NOT MAKE ONE ELITE!!
Yes it does.
In the eyes of Sem trained girls, only multiple years in Kollel will do for a Chasan. Otherwise they think of THEMSELVES as failures to Yiddishkeit (because that is what they were tought in Sem, and possibly high school as well), because they are not supporting (emotionally and financially, either through their’s or daddy’s money) a Kollel Bochur.
In the minds (that which they are) of these girls, guys who are working are second best, if not outright failures. Sitting in Kollel is a neccessary condition to be elite.January 8, 2014 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1036206
oomis – Will not happen. Period. As long as girls go to Bais Yaakov type Sems, girls will continue to be pushed that they are failures if they don’t marry Kollel.
And yes, this is one (of many, but one of the biggest) reasons why I feel that Israeli sems are destroying Yiddishkeit. (Since the conversation went this way).January 8, 2014 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1036207keepitcomingMember
woahh.. isnt this yeshiva world? learning torah is number one priority in life! so obviously somone who wants to learn full time is first class! there is no reason y a boy who is dating shudnt be still in learning at least part time. kollel isnt for everyone but it is defiantly number and if a girl cant handle that. she is a lower level.January 8, 2014 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1036208🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
gavra – I don’t disagree with most of what you are saying, but you are painting with a very broad brush. How many seminaries have you actually attended? How many seminaries have your close friends actually attended? Is this another one of those “I know 10 girls from NY who think this way from their sem year” so it must be that this is the curriculum? Your points are good, stick with them instead of getting lost in the “down with sem” fan club.January 8, 2014 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1036209
Thanks everyone for the advice.
Just to prove a point. My sister went to seminary last year. In her application she had to write a four page essay about herself. I read through it. All she wrote was that she wants to go to sem and then support a husband who will learn in kollel etc. My question to her was, being that our parents do not have money to support, how will she get married unless she marries a rich boy? When shes back from sem at age 19, she will not have any degree and will get a 12/hr job. How will she support?
I remember my mother saying “This is what she has to say in order to get in. Otherwise no seminary will take her”.
With regard to shaddchanim, there are some out there that do work with working guys. But what disgusts me is the look on the face of a BMG shaddchin, when I tell him I am working.January 8, 2014 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1036210
Syag – I specifically qualified my statement (regarding Kollel) to Bais Yaakov type sems. The other sems may not have that issue, but certainly do have others. If you want to discuss further, I’m willing on a new thread.January 8, 2014 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1036211
keepitcoming: Sorry to burst the bubble, but learning Torah is not the #1 priority in life, being an Oved Hashem is. Being an Oved Hashem has to be looked at holisticly, i.e. how can I (as a person) be the best Oved Hashem possible, including ALL of the Mitzvos (not just one, limud Hatorah).
Doeg HaEdomi was the greatest Lomed Torah in his generation.January 8, 2014 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1036212
wow. keepitcoming. you are saying that any guy whos working can’t be learning part time???
let me tell you a story about a family member of mine: He is 23 and not yet in shidduchim. He plans on finishing his college degree first so he can support his family. but while finishing his college degree he: wakes up vaskin, learns first seder and goes to a shiur, finishing with mincha somehwere around 3 I think. He then goes to college for a few hours, and then returns to the beis midrash for 2 hours of night seder. that is about 9 hours a day of learning. You are telling me that he is a second class citizen because he is planning on supporting his family at the loss of what, 2 hours, from your average kollel guy?
it is very possible for a guy to have learning Torah be his main priority, but also supporting his family. And they realize that it does take a few years to do the training. so waiting until you have no money for food to start the schooling, leaving your family without any income for 3 years, is not that great an idea.
Most of these working guys we’re discussing haven’t just written off learning, they have at least one seder/shiur every day.
regarding girls who don’t want kollel guys being on a lower level:
I’m going to give more information here about myself than I usually do, because I am such a strong believer in this:
I plan on going into Chinuch, because that is a dream of mine. It doesnt pay well to put it mildly. my parents are not able to support me/my family. If I marry a kollel guy, within a few years he’s going to need to start working because I will not be making enough money changing Jewish childrens’ lives to support us. I recognize that its not fair for me to take a guy who could be the next rosh yeshiva and make him work. You’re still saying that I’m on a lower level for recognizing that?
I’m not saying no to a kollel guy because I’m selfish and want to live in a big house. I will be perfectly fine living in an apartment, but I need the money to buy that apartment, and for that he needs to work.
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