August 19, 2021 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #2001431
I blame the Tech Countries more than the Rest. That means the US mainly.
Covid is Not a New disease affecting Humans.
It is the cause of MERS & SARS, but no one has searched for a treatment or cure.
OTOH, when AIDS first came out, they probably could have contained it With Quarantine.
Instead they let it spread & worked on a treatment.
Where is the World’s effort, that they applied to AIDS, for Coronavirus?!?August 20, 2021 9:03 am at 9:03 am #2001475akupermaParticipant
Covid19 probably could have gone unnoticed as a “bad case of flu”, which, unlike flu, primarily causes fatalities among the old and the sick, but not children. The mass media (in particular “social media”) decided it was a a horrible disaster and the politicians jumped at the chance to increase their power. The change in death rate was observable but not significant (in the US from .8% to .9%, lower than what it was in the 1990s, and lower that most developed countries’ death rate prior to Covid19). The trauma was caused by our elected leaders closing down schools and businesses, basically in order to show they had the power. The media lied about many things, and most people bought it. Among the media lies: 1) ignoring that 90% of the cases of Covid19 do not result in serious illness; 2) claiming children were especially at risk; 3) claiming the vaccine had no side-effect when it does have more side-effects that flu vaccines which is what people compare it to; 4) claiming the vaccine would prevent you from becoming infected and prevent you from spreading the disease. Telling the truth would have prevented panic, and avoided the problems resulting from lies being exposed.e.g. 1) saying the 10% of the cases caused serious illness and admitting that Covid19 is more like “Russian roulette” rather than a death sentence; 2)admitting the children rarely become seriously ill though that would undermine school closings; 3) claiming, as the vaccine makers said all along, that the vaccine largely prevent serious cases but doesn’t prevent the non-serious cases or becoming a carrier. The media also claimed masks prevented one from catching Covid19 even though the the medical establishment claim was that only the more expensive N95 type masks would reduce one’s chance of getting sick, though the typical cloth/paper masks did reduce the chance of someone spreading Covid19 (thereby undermeing credibility since many people wore masks and still got sick).August 20, 2021 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2001487
“Covid19 probably could have gone unnoticed as a “bad case of flu”, which, unlike flu, primarily causes fatalities among the old and the sick, but not children. ”
You’ve got to be kiddingAugust 20, 2021 9:45 am at 9:45 am #2001492Reb EliezerParticipant
Trump downplaying its effect.August 20, 2021 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2001497
“Trump downplaying its effect.”
Oh right, not the fact that all your democratic heros invented doubt in the vaccine and DENIED treatments that worked ONLY out of pure hate, you are going to skip all the killings that caused because your newspaper said so.
THAT is the world’s failureAugust 20, 2021 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2001503jackkParticipant
Is this topic contradicting the topic “The irrational response to Covid is part of the Decree from Above” ?August 20, 2021 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #2001566akupermaParticipant
Trump is the one who declared an emergency, seized all sorts of powers (probably in violation of the Constitution, since if the Constitution doesn’t assign a job to the president, it goes to the Congress or states). Trump was like any other politician grabbing power (and unlike the Conservative wing of the Republican party, saw nothing wrong with increasing executive power at everyone else’s expense).
Based on death rate changes, age distribution of deaths and people seriously ill, Covid19 was not significantly worse than the “seasonal flu” in a bad year, and bore no resemblance to past pandemics that were the basis for the extreme measures the government introduced (closing schools and politically unfavored businesses, mandatory masks, disrupting transit, confiscation of private property without compensation) – compare Covid19 to Ebola, Polio, Spanish flu, Smallpox, Plague, to get some context. The analogy would be someone who went to a Yiddle League game and thought that was baseball played at its highest level.August 20, 2021 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #2001571
If you want to be taken somewhat seriously you will have to be realistic. The hospitals were beyond capacity with critical patients, despite deferring elective procedures and discharging other patients sooner than they would normally do so, and despite the fact that many people with other diseases did not go to the hospital.August 20, 2021 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #2001572
“Trump downplaying its effect.”
Why are you blaming Trump for saying the same thing that everyone else was saying at the time. Initially, no one was taking the virus seriously, not Fauci not the media, not any association. But for some reason Trump was supposed to be the one to say that this is more serious than we really believe it to be?
How should is it that he would have medical-related information that others do not have? Oh, is it because he said that he had a feeling that it is more serious than others thought it to be, which was why he limited travel from affected countries?
Or is it because some feel the importance of playing politics and attributing blame to candidates that they dislike for no reason?August 20, 2021 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #2001583
Akuperma- put all the political garbage and who did what in response aside- i dispatch for hatzalah. I have dispatched thru many flu seasons. I dispatched thru covid. You are 100% wrong. 100%August 20, 2021 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #2001596
Syag -“Akuperma- put all the political garbage and who did what in response aside- i dispatch for hatzalah. I have dispatched thru many flu seasons. I dispatched thru covid. You are 100% wrong. 100%”
You’re 100% right.
This is a problem in the US when guys like Akuperma and Politicians make medical decisions, instead of Medical Personnel!August 20, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2001604jackkParticipant
I strongly agree that this pandemic has no comparison to the flu season.
I am completely bewildered that even if we could compare this pandemic to the flu season, that would somehow minimize efforts needed to prevent it’s spread. The world should have just let people die ?!
That is 1000% not a Torah concept and not even logical.August 20, 2021 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #2001628
>> The change in death rate was observable but not significant
I think it is to world CREDIT that the world more-or-less responded and is dealing with the pandemic. If we look at the world as half-full: how many people changed their routines, doctors caring for patients, researchers coming up with solutions, government officials doing unpopular things. We, especially I, tend to focus on the visible phenomena of those who do the bad stuff, but a lot of people do the right things. They are often not visible, sitting at home, listening to shiurim, or doing a second masters degree, or just watching movies instead of going to the bar…August 20, 2021 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #2001629
>> I am completely bewildered that even if we could compare this pandemic to the flu season
Original estimates were that several million people in US would have died if no measures were taken. These estimates sounded over the top, but seem to be close to reality. Not even counting, how more virulent COVID would have become if it were allowed to run wild. Note the country names that are now sanitized from the variant names: British, Indian, Brazil, South Africa. There are (so far) no German/US/French/Canadian/Japanese/Ozzy variants because many countries dealt with the issue.August 20, 2021 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #2001631Amil ZolaParticipant
In the worst of all flu seasons our local ICU and infectious disease isolation wards are never filled. Today we have zero isolation beds in hospitals for 3 counties and zero ICU beds.August 22, 2021 1:02 am at 1:02 am #2001742HaKatanParticipant
akuperma is, of course, right.
It’s true that hospitals were overwhelmed in the beginning, but that’s partly because Antiochus did not use the Hospital ship that President Trump sent him, and other preventable factors, including that Antiochus also decreed that life-saving treatments, like HCQ+Zinc (not HCQ alone) were forbidden.
This is a chutzpah of the highest order. A doctor should always have the right to say that based on his training and experience, this is what he feels is right for this particular patient. To have a politician deny that, and as a “blanket rule” is, again, a chutzpah of the highest order.
ViHaKesef yaAneh es haKol.August 22, 2021 5:55 am at 5:55 am #2001774
AAQ -“If we look at the world as half-full: how many people changed their routines, doctors caring for patients, researchers coming up with solutions, government officials doing unpopular things”
You didn’t answer my OP.
Here it is again:
“With AIDS they worked on a treatment”, not just Monoclonal AB’s.August 22, 2021 6:09 am at 6:09 am #2001779
“It’s true that hospitals were overwhelmed in the beginning”
Your making up your own facts, all hospitals, not just those in NYC were full beyond capacity, converting other units into covid units and other staff into Covid ICU staff.
Your also admitting that this is not just a flu, but your using the ship to further justify that it was not that bad. Im not really sure how that makes sense, if its just the flu, then why would the ship be needed?
Im not sure about the specifics as to why the ship wasnt used. However, the ship was only to be used for non covid patients, relieving the hospitals from the regulat burden so they can cope with the covid patients. It so turned out that most patients were covid patients.
With regards to some treatments that are not being used. Keep in mind, medicine is not something in which one decides on a treatment and all just follow. It needs to be tested and trialed. Well, what if the treatment is bogus? Should we still push for it become some decided on their own that it’s effective?
The rate of development for treatment and management for Covid pts has been done on a scale never seen before, unfortunately there is a lot of available data of treatments that work and those that do not, and in what phases of the disease process they are effective and when not.
So pushing a treatment that by some theory and some hypothetical would be effective but was not been able to be proven to be effective, is not doing anyone any good.August 22, 2021 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2001792
Hakatan you are completely wrong
Hospitals were completely overwhelmed, not just with places to keep patients, but with staffing and equipment as well.
For example, I did not have enough dialysis nurses not machines nor even catheters to provide dialysis to all those who needed it. I had to choose whether to give shorter treatments to more patients, or full dialysis to fewer patients; and if so which ones, the sicker ones? The ones less sick who were more likely to survive? These are decisions I hope to never have to make again.
(And ALL these patients had received HCQ + Zinc )
I have faced several flu seasons, (and more seasoned collegues have faced dozens) nothing came close to this.
Making matters worse is that Covid-19 causes a severe hypercatabolic state, requiring more dialysis. normally patients who need dialysis get by on Dialysis three times a week. Here I had MORE patients who needed more frequent even daily, dialysisAugust 22, 2021 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #2001884
2scents -“With regards to some treatments that are not being used. Keep in mind, medicine is not something in which one decides on a treatment and all just follow. It needs to be tested and trialed. Well, what if the treatment is bogus? Should we still push for it become some decided on their own that it’s effective?
The rate of development for treatment and management for Covid pts has been done on a scale never seen before, unfortunately there is a lot of available data of treatments that work and those that do not, and in what phases of the disease process they are effective and when not.”
Do you practice medicine? Or you’re just a puppet from our government?
From Hakatan -“including that Antiochus also decreed that life-saving treatments, like HCQ+Zinc (not HCQ alone) were forbidden.”
He’s making a mistake about Zinc, because it’s OTC.
But he’s Right about HCQ.
I’m assuming Antiochus is Cuomo.
NYS refused to honor Prescriptions for HCQ – for Covid 19.
Your rattling about the needs for testing & trials, shouldn’t have applied.
The same way they tested the vaccines for Covid – Human Guinea Pigs!August 22, 2021 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2001913
When non-Jews will complain that they were not given a fair chance, they would be given a mitzva of Sukkah that they are gonna to kick due to minor inconvenience (Sukkah is making us too hot and preventing flow of oxygen!). So, maybe COVID provides a similar pre-Moschiach test, giving everyone first a simple mitzva to wear a mask and SD. When even that was hard, Hashem sent a 2-shot vaccine – or a one-shot for those who found a 2-shot hard. Hopefully, more people will avail themselves to these simple mitzvos instead of kicking them and the world will be in the right spot.August 22, 2021 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #2001910
there are multiple trials going on around the world for treatments, not just vaccines, including the drugs you are mentioning. If you think that they were not tested under a correct protocol, which is completely plausible, go to some “fund me” site, have you and 1000 of other like-minded people donate 1,000 each, and have your own trial going somewhere in Latin America or India. In fact, if you so sure in your theory, I am not sure what justifies you not doing that? each of you probably spend 100 hours researching this topic, that is worth more 1,000 dollars, go act on that!August 22, 2021 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2001908
“Your rattling about the needs for testing & trials, shouldn’t have applied.
The same way they tested the vaccines for Covid – Human Guinea Pigs!”
Are you trying to argue that the rules should be bent? Or are you arguing that despite the mentioned treatment having found no benefit, and despite the entire medical community having moved on from what seemed to be hypothetically promising, we should still cling to one specific treatment?
You seem to be advocating and even seem bothered by the fact that the government (as well almost all established medical associations) are not on the same page with your treatment protocol. But, is there any reliable data that supports your treatment protocol?
At this point we unfortunately have had way to many Covid patients. However, we also have a lot of data, so some theories can be eliminated and some can be looked at with greater interest.
We can’t stay stuck with one initial hypothetical potential treatment protocol.August 22, 2021 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #2001926
I appreciate that your all for mask wearing and social distancing, but as an individual we cannot decide to make this into a torah ruling and even compare this to the mitzvah of sukkah. At least until our Rabbis and leaders do not tell us so.
I am also sure you appreciate the fact that some communities that have extremely low vaccination and clearly disregard for social distancing and have normal minyanim and normal gatherings, have not seen any worrying increase in covid cases, just a few small scale breakthrough cases.
While I am not advocating for anything, we are still in the process of figuring this out, and we don’t have all the answers. So this observation should be taken into consideration.
Maybe it was wrong to close the schools, because the communities that had normal schools while the rest of country was being home schooled likely had the majority of kids infected (probably completely asymptomatic) with Covid, mitigating the current issue about kids being vectors (carriers) of the virus.
Also, the lack of social distancing and masking probably increased natural herd immunity in these communities, especially among the younger low risk group during the 1st wave, essentially protecting the entire community from additional widespread waves.
Im not an expert in these matters, but lets not fool ourselves making believe we have all the answers. In fact, there was so much that we held initially to be the truth only to be considered now as fiction. For example, Motrin being bad for those infected, stay away from steroids, early intubation. All of those are now considered bad medicine. But at the time, with the information at hand those seemed to be the best option.August 22, 2021 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #2001927
2cents, no they are not stuck with one initial hypothetical potential treatment protocol (which there are actually many protocols and also proven to be effective) but we are stuck with one initial hypothetical potential “prevention” protocol which has so many breakthroughs cases, siide effects and deaths and despite all this we are still stuck with that protocol called “covid-19 shots”, the so-called covid “vaccines”.August 22, 2021 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #2001931
“but as an individual we cannot decide to make this into a torah ruling and even compare this to the mitzvah of sukkah. At least until our Rabbis and leaders do not tell us so.”
2scents- THANK YOU!August 22, 2021 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #2001933
Not sure what your referring to about more than one treatment, in this chat there was a specific treatment that was mentioned, which has not yet been proven to be effective.
Of course there are treatment protocols that have proven to be effective, they are also being used on Covid patients.
With regards to the vaccine, which seems to be what you are alluding to with the prevention protocol. Yes, there are breakthrough cases, but most of them are mild in nature not requiring hospitalization.
Furthermore, the vaccine was not being sold as 100% effective, and the need for boosters is not yet clear.
The prevention method is not new, its been used since vaccines have been invented and has been the mainstay of preventative medicine. Its wildly effective if done safely and uses the rules of Hashems nature which build immunity which in return allows the body to successfully fight the invading virus.
As if yet, there is no effective treatments for viral infections, so vaccines seem to be our best bet at this time.
With regards to deaths and side effects, Like everything else there are side effects, although they are extremely rare, to the point that they are deemed safe.August 22, 2021 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2001936
2scents -“Or are you arguing that despite the mentioned treatment having found no benefit, and despite the entire medical community having moved on from what seemed to be hypothetically promising, we should still cling to one specific treatment?”
Obviously you’re Not up with the latest Medical Science.
See my post just now to AAQ.
You sound like a Broken Record.
Fauci obviously has Skin in the Game – that’s why he denied that it Probably came from the Wuhan Lab.
I’m not an Investigator, but if I was, I’d start with him and other Government Medical Officials!
Btw, Invermectin works also.
Are you a medical professional? Being a Medic doesn’t entitle you to have a medical opinion.
Why don’t you look at some Medscape articles on HCQ & then with Zinc?
Also look at the Comments.
If you’re just a Medic, you probably don’t have access to Medscape.August 22, 2021 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2001935
AAQ -“there are multiple trials going on around the world for treatments, not just vaccines, including the drugs you are mentioning”
I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about.
Zelenco actually gave the protocol to be tested in 2 hospitals. The results weren’t worse than Monoclonals that are approved by the Government.August 22, 2021 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #2001940
From the CDC’s website, article released on Aug 18 2021 “This study’s findings suggest currently available vaccines have high effectiveness for preventing laboratory-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection and COVID-19 hospitalization. However, VE against infection appears to have declined in recent months in New York, coinciding with a period of easing societal public health restriction and increasing Delta variant circulation (8). These findings support a multipronged approach to reducing new COVID-19 hospitalizations and cases, centered on vaccination, and including other approaches such as masking and physical distancing.”
In other words, the vaccines are not worth much in the long run so we let’s keep young and old forever muzzled and social distanced and keep on injecting booster shots … because covid-19 will be with us indefinitely and this is how we plan on subjugating the population forever and ever. We will also decide that landlords cannot get their rent due to covid and soon will decide what other basic rights we will supress due to the excuse of covid-19.August 22, 2021 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #2001941
“I’m not an Investigator, but if I was, I’d start with him and other Government Medical Officials!”
Interesting, after admitting that investigations are not your area if expertise you continue to follow through with a plan of action. Sounds weird.
Also, I am not sure as to trials were done with regards to Dr Zelenko (who should a refuah shleima, and hopefully decides to become somewhat more realistic, at this point after being very radical and extreme, its not easy for him to back down from his position).
But not worse, is not a sufficient criteria. Besides, I am not familiar with any trials from Dr. Zelenko. Please share if you have them.August 22, 2021 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2001944
forget everything about this virus for a second. The fact that the vaccine mandates are already in effect barring people from normal venues, and the fact that they said they have a whole list of mandates once the vaccine gets full approval this week, is completely evident of the biggest scheme to takeover humanity.
You can blame Trump all you want but the fact is the virus and Government control is happening all over the world not just in America, and last time I checked Trump was President of the U.S. not of the whole world. So obviously there is a bigger picture here.
Those who got the vaccine, just understand no matter how strongly you believe in the vaccine, understand that letting the governments of the world take away peoples freedoms is a disastrous step to total control. They have slowly taken away peoples liberties, but they are picking up the pace as the days go by. For instance they mandated teachers to get vaccinated but left a choice of getting tested daily which in and of itself is madness, but they are now talking of completely removing that option(and I am sure they will as to set a precedent for everything else).
Its only a matter of time until the dont let people shop for food or do any basic things in society. This can get as bad as you can imagine. If you say you will just order food online, that can also require proof of vaccination. If you say people will cook food at home, utilities and gas might be dependent on vaccination, or whether you had your boosters every time they are newly announced. You might say that doesnt make sense since you arent near anyone, but they will say the driver cant get near an unvaccinated house. And later on they wont even need an excuse because nothing will need to make sense anymore same as it already has been up until now. People will be so con trolled that they will forget how and why these mandates and “precautions” were even put in place.
We all called those “crazy loonies” conspiracy theorists for claiming there will be mask mandates, lines outside to enter stores, vaccine mandates, vaccine passports and so on. Turned out they werent too far off, in fact they were spot on. You can call me a conspiracy theorists or accuse me of having a broad imagination, I hope thats all it is. But once they unveil their “list of mandates”, we will all know where we are standing and what we are up against. Again whether you are for or not for the vaccine, taking away basic or even any liberties from civilians should alarm anyone.
This has gone too far.August 22, 2021 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #2001949
healyj > I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about.
you can see all trials registered at gov ClinicalTrials site.
conbat covid HHS site lists 19 trials, 11 of them active
UK Recovery trial has trials at 186 sites with 40,000 patients
WHO/International Solidarity trial at 600 sites, 14,000 patients
I am not saying that everything they do is perfect, but it is a considerable effort.
Again, if you think Zelenko protocols superior to official trials, organize a real trial according to established practices – register your trial before you do it, use randomization, etc.August 22, 2021 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #2001957
2scents: have normal minyanim and normal gatherings, have not seen any worrying increase in covid cases
I would appreciate the data. All the data on Israel and several zip codes in US hat I checked indicated higher rates, unfortunately. A number of elderly Rabbis passed away. You might be deceived by the highly clustered nature of this virus – it might be raging in one community and go around a similar nearby one by pure chance. We saw many stories written about countries, like Sweden, that found magic solutions – and then, over time, they regressed to a mean. Or, maybe you are talking about young communities with less older people.August 22, 2021 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #2001955
2sc> but as an individual we cannot decide to make this into a torah ruling and even compare this to the mitzvah of sukkah. At least until our Rabbis and leaders do not tell us so.
You are free to ask your posek, of course for precise boundaries. Let us know what he says, please. But you probably aware that there are some mitzvot that are defined very precisely (tefilin, mezuza, more often bein Adam l’Makom), and sometimes generic ones – ahavta reeha kamoha. I apologize not listing all relevant mitzvos, dont have energy right now to go back to all halakhic sources I read, you are welcome either to look up teshuvot or, again, ask your posek, and let us know.August 22, 2021 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #2001956
RW > They have slowly taken away peoples liberties,
Look, you have to come to terms that you live in an imperfect democratic country that has a Supreme Court ruling from a 100 years ago that enables (state?) government to force vaccinations. Jews lived in many countries over centuries that had much more difficult policies. You can either get a shot, hire a lawyer, or move to another country. Last I heard, Talibs do not require shots, and I am sure they’d love to have 2 Jews in their Emirate.August 22, 2021 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #2001958
also anecdotally, in my community that has people coming from very different backgrounds, all clusters that I heard of came after people came from visiting those “normal” communities and then immediately going to shul or sending kids to school. In some cases, clusters grew somewhat due to some local individuals not staying in quarantine, but otherwise were stopped by adherence to quarantine and school closing protocols. Again, this is anecdotal, but no less solid that your statement that many communities were not affected.August 22, 2021 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2001967
Re the data for the lack if increase in Covid cases, more so hospitalized cases, I am not sure it’s possible to obtain such data. However, there was and continues to be almost no social distancing as well as regular school schedule, as has been for a very long time. As of recent, there has not been any significant increase of hospitalizations in these communities (referring to US/Tri state area).
That might very well change, hopefully it will not.
While you request that I provide the data, I believe that you would have to provide data that disproves this, since your pushing for mandates and blaming others for not following the social distancing and masking recommendations. Besides, you can verify this by reaching out to the hospitals or local EMS agencies (doubt they would release any info to you).
But the rest of us can rely on anecdotal information and personal observations. Especially if you live or work on the above mentioned areas. Even more so, if you work in facilities that deal with Covid patients.
I am not against masks or social distancing, and it may be that those are important. However, lets not pretend as if we have it all figured out. It may very much be that the social distancing caused a significant low risk population to remain vulnerable and available to keep the virus alive, which left is scrambling on how to deal with this new wave of Covid.
I do sincerely believe that we all want to find ourselves on the other side of this horrible saga. It’s just that we all bring our biases to the table and which makes it difficult for all sides to come together.August 22, 2021 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2001968
Re the outbreaks in your community that some believe has originated from other communities. Proves the idea that there is a lack of immunity in your community. Likely from keeping extremely low risk patients isolated.
Its a theory, I am sure some will disagree with this notion. But its an interesting observation.August 22, 2021 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #2001969
JACOBSON V MASSACHUSETTS
“As the 20th century began, epidemics of infectious diseases such as smallpox remained a recurrent threat. A Massachusetts statute granted city boards of health the authority to require vaccination “when necessary for public health or safety. In 1902, when smallpox surged in Cambridge, the city’s board of health issued an order pursuant to this authority that required all adults to be vaccinated to halt the disease. The statutory penalty for refusing vaccination was a monetary fine of $5 (about $100 today). There was no provision for actually forcing vaccination on any person.”
“Henning Jacobson refused vaccination, claiming that he and his son had had bad reactions to earlier vaccinations. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court found it unnecessary to worry about any possible harm from vaccination, because no one could actually be forced to be vaccinated: “If a person should deem it important that vaccination should not be performed in his case, and the authorities should think otherwise, it is not in their power to vaccinate him by force, and the worst that could happen to him under the statute would be the payment of $5. Jacobson was fined, and he appealed to the US Supreme Court.”
Read the last lines carefully, it is NOT in their power to force vaccinate and the WORST that can happen is a fine. He appealed for the fine, he did not have to vaccinate. Doesnt say the worst that can happen is being shunned from society and have all his rights taken away from him.
Also, alwaysask, you dont own this country so please refrain from giving advice as if you are some sort of ruler. You must love being controlled by others.
editedAugust 23, 2021 9:43 am at 9:43 am #2002033jdf007Participant
akuperma starts off a long monologue with “could have” “probably” etc. But, these could haves did happen. And the probably occurred that way. If the first sentence in a tl;dr rant is so divorced from reality, the rest is likely to be a waste of time. If you’re foundation is so completely off, you have nothing to stand on.
I have been warning you people of what was to happen back in Feb/March of 2020. How many heeded the open and obvious result of what was to come? Obviously no one, because you all are still arguing over 1st step issues that were put to bed by April 2020 whilst the rest of the world has moved on. We have bigger issues today.
And, more importantly, you are now arguing over vaccines for diseases that should not even exist. But obviously, we love the virus. America loves the virus.August 23, 2021 9:54 am at 9:54 am #2002042
“because you all are still arguing over 1st step issues that were put to bed by April 2020 whilst the rest of the world has moved on”
Huh??August 23, 2021 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2002043
“Doesn’t say the worst that can happen is being shunned from society and have all his rights taken away from him.”
I asked you this before. what rights? “rights” isnt a magic word that lets you do what you want. For example, there is no right to drive. I live in a small town, there is no food available in walking distance. I did a study and it turns out most drivers who got killed in car accidents had drivers licenses. SO, simple! I refuse to get a drivers license You expect me to carry a death causing card? No way!.
Yet the state says I am not allowed to drive! Would you believe that? I am basically stuck at home , I cant go to work I cant go get food. What about my rights?
That is how you sound.
The only “right” of yours that you can argue is being violated is the “right” to not be vaccinated.
If you make this claim, you will have to cite chapter and verse where this right can be found. I don’t think it exists, though you could probably use a liberal interpretation of the constitution to support it, as a form of “right to privacy ” But there is no other right of yours being infringed
(unless you claim not being vaccinated is part of your religion , (though If you are Jewish of course the reverse is true) The right to practice your religion Does exist it is in the first amendment to the constitution. Though worth noting courts have ruled this (like most rights) is not absolute)August 23, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #2002060
Here regarding right to food.
“The right to food is protected under international human rights and humanitarian law and the correlative state obligations are well-established under international law. The right to food is recognized in article 25 of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights and article 11 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR), as well as a plethora of other instruments. Noteworthy is also the recognition of the right to food in numerous national constitutions.”
ubiquitin-“I asked you this before. what rights? “rights” isnt a magic word that lets you do what you want. For example, there is no right to drive. I live in a small town, there is no food available in walking distance. I did a study and it turns out most drivers who got killed in car accidents had drivers licenses. SO, simple! I refuse to get a drivers license You expect me to carry a death causing card? No way!.
Yet the state says I am not allowed to drive! Would you believe that? I am basically stuck at home , I cant go to work I cant go get food. What about my rights?
That is how you sound.”
-Are you really comparing driving to basic human liberties? First of all in order to operate a car you need knowledge, practice, and skill so of course you will have to obtain a license which entails those 3 things I’ve mentioned. I dont even know how you compare this to anything. The license ID is just the proof that you have gone through that training and are qualified to operate that type of machinery.
Driving is not a necessity . You can live your whole life without having to drive. Your weak argument holds nothing. There is public transportation, taxis, ride shares, bicycles, walking, friends, etc. And it must be you have the funds for that if on the other hand you would have owned a car. Or is it also your right to be given a car according to your logic?
There is no scientific evidence that this vaccine prevents others from getting sick. Vaccines work based on the individual who takes it to protect themselves. It has no dependency on others. The CDC even admitted that vaccinated are not protected against variants and are spreading. Also we are seeing that in actuality.
Besides I gave you the case of Jacobson v Mass. The case wasnt even about getting the vaccine, it was all about the fine that he received for refusing the vaccine and didnt want to pay it. He wasnt fighting to not be force vaccinated and wasnt forced to vaccinate or be shunned from society. As the court said, their is no way to force the vaccine and at worst their will be a fine of $5.
And nobody said you have a right to do “whatever” you want. A child, this is how you sound.August 23, 2021 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #2002068
“There is no scientific evidence that this vaccine prevents others from getting sick. Vaccines work based on the individual who takes it to protect themselves. It has no dependency on others. The CDC even admitted that vaccinated are not protected against variants and are spreading. Also we are seeing that in actuality.”
Your using the notion of the vaccine being less protective against different strains or variants of the virus has nothing to do with protecting others.
I am not sure as to the basis of your argument that there is no evidence that vaccinated people help eradicate the virus, which in return protects the rest of the population. That is how viruses work. The virus requires a host in order to survive, as long as the virus has a large enough population that are viable vectors the virus will continue to survive. The more people that are immune to the virus, the less available hosts to serve as vectors for the virus.August 23, 2021 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #2002067
1) You are free to buy all the food you could possibly want even if unvaccinated .
2) The United states is not a party to the ICESCR
“Driving is not a necessity ”
1) In my isolated town it is
2) neither a necessity to not being vaccinated (again That is the right you claim, the right to not be vaccinated)
You don’t like my car example fine.
Here is another.
I refuse to wear pants*. If Hashem wanted me wearing pants He would have created me wearing pants. The Government says if I stay home I can keep my pants off. but outside I will be arrested for not wearing pants. I am thus prevented from buying food. Is this a violation of my “rights”?
(*lashon mealya)August 23, 2021 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #2002076
2cents, no one is denying that herd immunity works. However, these fake covid vaccines do not work well enough, if at all, and we don’t know the long term effects of these “vaccines”. The fact is that the CDC recommends and the government tries to enforce in many places, wearing of masks and social distancing despite these “vaccinations” is because they are not very effective and they know it. But the good sheep in the population are blindly following their leaders and the media directives regardless of reality.
If people have natural immunity why force the vaccine on them? Because it’s all about the $ and power, not because of immunity. In addition, it is extremely immoral to give these experimental vaccines to young adults and children when they are not prone to serious effects and to death from covid despite media hype.
The fact is that many great physicians have come out with protocols which repurpose safe and effective medications to fight covid but which is ignored and ridiculed because there’s too little $ involved in their use vs mass “vaccination” of these “vaccinations” still in trial stage.August 23, 2021 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #2002078
Phil- do you realize you are pitting your facebook and twitter research based knowledge against an actual doctor?August 23, 2021 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #2002083
“and we don’t know the long term effects of these “vaccines”.”
1) How long of a time frame would satisfy you to consider it safe?
2) I can’t think of anything that has a “long term” side effect. If I told you I have a headache from a medication I took six months ago, I think you’d dismiss me as a loon. Even if said medication was injected.
Can you think of anything that taking a small few ml dose or two can lead to effects much later that don’t manifest themselves for a “long time” ?
(note, I’m not taking about lots of cumulative doses over time. I’m talking about take something now, no problem then months/years later it causes a problem
I’m also not talking about rare side effects that aren’t discovered until enough people take it )August 23, 2021 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #2002080
Number one you are completely ignoring the 1905 Jacobson v Mass which all the pro vaxxers try to bring up, I included this in my post and proved that he wasnt forced to vaccinate at the end and the court case was about paying a fine since he refused the vaccine.
“1) You are free to buy all the food you could possibly want even if unvaccinated .”
-Yes for the time being. Did you think they would take that away from you on the first day? We all know where this is going. Take away the luxuries like Dining and Gym,where people can live without but in the meantime get them used to the idea of restrictions so that they can go for the real necessities once the people are conditioned to this.
““Driving is not a necessity ”
1) In my isolated town it is”
-Then get a drivers license. Last time I checked you said you dont want to get a drivers license because you believe they are all killers.
Getting a license requires certain knowledge and skill and training. Going to a restaurant or museum or buying food, does not. With your ideology you should also have a right to practice medicine without a license because whats the difference between practicing medicine and going to a restaurant right? Maybe you can also become a surgeon without years of study and practice? No knowledge needed besides for the fact that its your right and that should be good enough for you to perform surgeries.
You have a right to study whatever you want that doesnt mean you are “Qualified” until you actually are Qualified. Qualification does not equate to freedom to dine out, go to a museum, etc.
If anything you are proving my point.
Your second example is even weaker. You have a flawed mindset that you dont need something due to the fact you werent born with it. You also werent born with an endless supply of food in your stomach so maybe you shouldnt ever eat anything?
You are totally mixing up so many things and drawing for straws. Your last argument is already getting into ethics, morals and a bunch of other topics. That has no comparison to forcing someone to get vaccinated in order to live in society. And yes Deblasio said, “if you want to “PARTICIPATE” in society, you will need to get vaccinated, we will make life very difficult for the unvaccinated”.
You are aware also that there is no end to the vaccination right? There will be constant booster shots as they have already warned. Aside for the fact that this sets a precedent for any vaccine they will deem necessary for people to get in the future or any other “virus” that shows up.
Your first example is that you argue that things that require qualification shouldnt, and your second argues against morals and ethics in public. This has nothing to do with the current issue. Totally separate subjects.
2scents-“Your using the notion of the vaccine being less protective against different strains or variants of the virus has nothing to do with protecting others. ”
-Actually it does. You are completely ignoring those with natural antibodies which are proving to not only be long lasting, but also protect against variants. Whats your excuse to have them vaccinated when the vaccine does not prevent spread to others or protect against variants? Because that was the only excuse they came out with to require immune people to get vaccinated but im sure they have no shortage of new theories. ALL FOR THE GREATER GOOD!
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