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cherrybim: you clearly have a problem either with your vision or your reading comprehension skills. I have written repeatedly that I DO respect Rav Belsky and he is very reliable for what he is, ONE OF the Poskei HaDor. I am still awaiting YOUR response to why YOU don’t respect Rav Elyashiv etc!!!
When in doubt, check with the Poskim and Rabbonim of your dor and local.
Rav Dovid Feinstein NEVER said it is assur, all he said was if this and this is the case then it’s assur
Gee, that sounds like a psak to me.
hello99-
hello99, and rov of our poskim here say that “this and this” is the not case, so therefore, it’s not assur.
Why can we not make judgements on which poskim are bigger? Would we not agree that R’ Moshe was bigger than any poskim alive today? True, we are “peanuts” and have no such hasagos on our own, but we have the opinions of our Rabbonim. If I’m not right, then we can’t judge who is a legitimate posek at all.
Find me a respected rov who considers R’ Belky bigger than the gedolei haposkim in EY! I know my rebbeim consider them bigger! R’ Dovid Feinstein has not issued a psak because R’ Elyashiv already gave his psak. Does this not tell us whom he feels is a bigger posek? Not to belittle R’ Belsky, chas v’sholom, but why would one follow his psak l’kulo against the gedolei haposkim in EY?
Cherrybim: Who said the herring at the kiddush you attended was a problem? Even had you seen rabbonim eating wild salmon, it wouldn’t prove anything; maybe they were dewormed!
Daas Yochid = “maybe they were dewormed!”
Herring doesn’t get dewormed.
Cheerybim: Herring is not necessarily a problem. From the Star K website:
The following lists are based on research by Rabbi Gershon Bess. Note: Please READ CAREFULLY since there are some species of fish that appear on both lists. Their acceptability or non-acceptability depends on where they originate. We have no information about fish not included on this list.
Until further notice, only the variety of fish found on the following list may be used without any need for inspection:
Carp
Flounder – Only Fluke, Georgia Banks, Channel
Gefilte Fish
Herring fillet
Lox – Farm Raised
Minced Fish Sticks
Pike
Pollock – Atlantic
Red Snapper – Eastern or Atlantic only
Salmon – Farm Raised (e.g. Atlantic, Norwegian, Chilean, New Zealand, British Columbia )
Sardines – from Morocco, Philippines, Portugal
Tilapia
Trout
Tuna
Whitefish – Michigan-Lake Superior
Whiting
Daas Yochid – “…but why should anyone follow…Rav Belsky?
More people follow and rely on Rav Belsky and the OU than all of your other poskim combined.
– Why according to the Fish Asurers, is Gefilte Fish, without stating the type of fish in the ingredients, ok?
From the Star K website:
“Some Gedolei Eretz Yisroel have ruled that these worms are halachically prohibited and, therefore, those species of fish must be inspected prior to use.
Since we at Star-K strive to have our kosher certified products accepted by all kosher consumers, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann has instructed Star-K establishments and mashgichim that only the non-problematic fish be used.”
Rav Heinemann is not saying at this time that the fish are assur, only that he wants his hashgacha to be accepted without qualification by everyone and therefore only permitted this list of fish in his food establishments.
Cherrybim: So now we’re supposed to follow whichever posek is followed by the majority, even if it’s only because it’s a name brand hechsher? Rav Elyashiv, Rav Vosner, and Rav Karelitz tower above any American poskim today. Also as I mentioned, Rav Belsky Shlit”a is arguing on the rishonim on the sugya. What a shame that Rav Elyashiv, Rav Vosner, and Rav Karelitz, not to mention the Rashb”a, Ramba”m (Sefer Hamitzvos),and Maggid Mishna, don’t work for a nationally recognized hechsher!
BTW, you misread my original statement about herring – I never said it’s dewormed, just that it’s not a problem. I said even if you saw someone eating wild salmon, you can’t assume they hold it’s mutor, maybe it was dewormed. I have no idea whether or not herring is dewormed.
Gefilte fish is not a problem because the worms are ground up, and they become botel (no longer a berya).
Very smart of the Star-K. We should also make sure that the food we eat is acceptable by the standards of all gedolei yisroel!
BTW, the reason I originally posted the list of fish which are mutor is to dispel the myth that someone eating herring is a sign that he is matir anisakis.
From the FOOD and AGGICULTURE ORGANIZATION of the UNITED NATIONS:
Daas Yochid – “Gefilte fish is not a problem because the worms are ground up, and they become botel (no longer a berya).”
So, are you saying that you can eat ground up worms l’chatchila?
From the FOOD and AGGICULTURE ORGANIZATION of the UNITED NATIONS:
HIE: Thank you very much for proving my point. Rav Dovid Feinstein does NOT hold like some of the esteemed members of the CR that everyone in America should automatically follow Rav Belsky’s heter even though he is a big expert and also local. Neither do Rav Heineman or Rav Forscheimer.
cherrybim: ground worms are assur, but they are batel b’shishim. Whole worms are not batel.
cherrybim: If Rav Belsky is THE Posek in America, why do you promote Cholov Stam on the other thread when Rav Belsky does not permit it. Also, are you aware that Rav Belsky and Rav Moshe Feinstein zatzal hold that Starkist tuna fish is assur because it does not have a mashgiach temidi. Rav Schachter from the OU holds all milk is assur because the percentage of treif milk cows is over 50%, why aren’t you insisting everyone in the US desist from all dairy products?
Why does it look like you are shopping for kulos???
Unless a minhag has been in your family for doros, you have the option to choose the way to go if there is a machlokes of poskim. There are no contradictions if you follow different posekim in separate matters, whether it’s l’kula or l’chumra.
When it doen’t affect the khal and you have a worthy posek to rely on, your Rav won’t intervene unless you ask.
I’m glad I live in an neighborhood where we just listen to the local rabbis.
HIE: “hello99, can you answer my questions too”.
With pleasure. Go ahead and ask.
cherrybim: “you have the option to choose the way to go if there is a machlokes of poskim”
NOT TRUE, unless you are a Posek yourself. Get yourself a Rav and follow his psak l’chmra or l’kula.
HIE: “I beleive Rav belsky really really really went deep into this inyan to make sure it’s mutar before being matir it.”
I don’t doubt it, but the bottom line is that Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Heineman and Rav Forscheimer did NOT think that was good enough to be meikil on a deoraisa against Rav Elyashiv etc.
Trying my best, my friend’s minhag was not a minhag. One side of her family comes from Ireland, as I said, and there is a halachic p’sak that the particular tuna from that region is NOT kosher (or there was when her mom was growing up there). Not a minhag, a halacha. Her minhag, however, is that not only does she not eat tuna from Ireland, but extends that to ALL tuna, even that which is unquestionably kosher according to the simanim.
HIE: Have you seen the letter from R’ Gross, Shlit”a, about R’ Elyashiv’s daas? It says he holds it’s ossur, it doesn’t say misofek.
Cherrybim: If you don’t want to eat herring, gezunte hait. But even the osrim permit herring fillets.
From: http://www.kehilasyaakov.org/Fish.html
Updated 2/20/2010
The following are the preliminary findings of various fish experts. We will update this list as new information is received.
The Anisakis worm is found in the following fish (frozen or fresh) and may not be eaten unless checked for worms. [Even with a hechscher]
Butterfish
Canned Salmon (wild)
Cod: Scrod, Hake
Flounder: Yellow Tail/ Wild Dabs/ Black Backs, Turbot, Yellow Fin Sole
Halibut
Pacific Red Snapper (Eastern or Atlantic Red Snapper is a different variety and is OK)
Fillet fish sticks or other breaded fish products
Red Perch
Sable a.k.a Black Cod [In NY, some smokehouses use Chilean Sea Bass but call it Sable (which is also a problem)
Sole
Yellow Fin Sole
The following fish do not require checking:
Carp
Farm Raised Salmon [E.g. Atlantic, Norwegian, Chilean, New Zealand, British Columbia)
Gefilte Fish
Herring fillet
Lox [Farm raised, if wild would state “wild”]
Minced Fish Sticks
Pike
Pollock – Atlantic
Sardines from Morocco, Philippines, Portugal
Tilapia
Trout
Tuna
Whitefish: Michigan – Lake Superior [Some allow the Canadian as well]
Whiting
Checking:Fish with white flesh can be checked [after the skin is removed) by shining a strong flashlight from underneath or holding up to a bright light. They may appear as extended worms or coiled in a circle. They are readily visible. Salmon or pink fish require an ultraviolet light and if infested cannot be removed.
Please someone explain to me why you think Hashem wanted us to use ultraviolet light in this generation when all the previous gedolim never had access to such lights? Do you think they were eating treife fish? Why can’t we rely on minhagim?
As of yesterday Rav Wosner, and Rav N. Kerelitz have rescinded on their Ossur. After having been explained the life cycle of the anisakis and having read the Teshuva of Rav Falk (Gateshead) they came to the decision that it is MUTAR!
estherh: Astounding news. Do you mind sharing your source?
Clearheaded:
Hashem does not require us to use ultraviolet light, just to abstain from worms which entered fish from outside. If worms are intrisically visible, but are difficult to see because they are similar in color to the flesh of the fish, they are assur if we know they are present. So if you can’t see them to remove them, you can choose to eat something else, or to remove them using ultraviolet light.
There was never such a minhag in Klal Yisroel, to eat worms which entered fish from outside.
I don’t think any gedolim ate treife fish, although I don’t know about the worms. I did hear that when someone asked how R’ Moshe could have drank water with bugs in it, R’ Dovid’s response was, “If he knew there were bugs in it, he wouldn’t have drank it!”. We can try to figure out how Hashem prevented gedolim from eating ma’acholos assuros which they were unaware of, but you can’t pasken shailos based on that. This issue was brought up by the asifoh, and Rav Karp responded with ra’ayos to this yesod.
I hope my answers were clear.
Daas Yochid, I didn’t mean treif fish as in treif fish. I meant to ask if anyone thinks the gedolim of the previous generations ate worms that were ossur. If those worms were ossur there’s no way the gedolim of the previous generation would have been machshal through ignorance.
Please excuse me, but from all the stuff I hear what Rabbonim said and ossured, I’m skeptical of any stories and ossurim that I hear unless there is a direct mekor of a reliable person who sais he was there and saw/heard the story or thing being ossured.
Now just to make this issue clear for me, I called up my Rav, a very big Chassidishe posek and asked him about these worms. I’m not going to tell you my Rov’s name as I feel everyone should call there own Rov and listen to what they say.
Here’s what my Rov said. Fresh fish is kosher. Frozen, packaged fish needs to be checked for worms. Canned salmon some hold is assur and some mutter, but he didn’t tell me it’s assur (which leads me to think that he thinks it’s mutter, but doesn’t want to posken differently than certain Rabbonim).
So that’s that for me.
Clearheaded: “If those worms were ossur there’s no way the gedolim of the previous generation would have been (machshal) [nichshol] through ignorance.”
If you believe so, fine, and you are probably right. But we can’t pasken from that. We must assume, then, that HKB”H didn’t allow these worms into the fish which ended up in their mouths (like all the stories of non- kosher food which spoiled or were spilled before a godol inadvertantly ate it). Or, this species is only recently in such abundance (there is evidence for this). Or, someone is a complete onus for this until made aware.
Your rov, apparently, holds the anisakis is assur, otherewise why would you need to check packaged fish! He is apparently not convinced that the prevalence of anisakis is not sufficient to assur all fish. That’s just my take on his psak (which you heard directly!), I’m curious to know if it’s right. Could you ask him? Thanks
BTW, my line about the treife fish was just a joke. Sorry, I should have put a smiley 🙂
Daas Yochid: The Rabbonim of Kedassia (London) spoke to Rav Wosner and Rav Karelitz.
estherh: “As of yesterday Rav Wosner have rescinded on their Ossur. After having been explained the life cycle of the anisakis they came to the decision that it is MUTAR!
I find this very hard to believe because Rav Vozner in Shevet HaLevi 4:83 printed over 10 years ago describes the life-cycle of the anisakis worm in great detail and his description is precisely the same as what everyone is saying today and he rules that it is assur.
estherh: Also, Rav Vozner in the above mentioned teshuva directly addresses Rav Falk’s logic to be matir. While I personally find Rav Falk’s understanding more compelling, it is unlikely that there is anything new that would convince Rav Vozner to change his mind.
It seems that the Rabbonim in Eretz Yisroel have had second thoughts. In Our History Great poskim have changed their minds later.
I know That our Rabbonim have had the above Rabbonims decisions confirmed.
Daas Yochid, thanks, I takeh meant nichshol.
I’m not sure what you mean with your statement “He is apparently not convinced that the prevalence of anisakis is not sufficient to assur all fish.”
In any case, I think he doesn’t feel anisakis is ossur for if he would’ve felt that way, he would have told me that fresh fish needs to be checked as well. Fish is fish, it doesn’t matter if it’s fresh or frozen. I think he feels that there’s a problem with commercially prepared fish (canned and frozen/packaged), but that doesn’t mean he thinks the anisaki worm is ossur.
Mod – Can the YWN confirm this new(s) story?
It is unfortunate that this Halachik issue has become so very politicized.
We hear some people pushing strongly for an Issur on these fish out of respect for Maran Rav Eliyashiv and Maran Rav Wosner. Is this the Derech of Torah and halacha?
This is happening in the New York area, Toronto, London and Eretz Yisroel.
Alas, This could become a shameful situation.
If the story is true, wonderful. I have said from the beginning that I find Rav Belsky’s opinion the most logical. But as I explained, this rumor doesn’t make sense.
“We hear some people pushing strongly for an Issur on these fish out of respect for Maran Rav Eliyashiv and Maran Rav Wosner”
It’s not out of “respect”, we don’t pervert Halacha so a Posek won’t be “insulted”. Rather the majority of even American Poskim seem to think that Rav Belsky’s heter is not enough to be matir a d’Oraisa.
HIM – You mean the VAST majority.
Clearheaded:
What I meant was that if the worms are mutor, they would be mutor in any fish, no matter in what percentage they are found. If the worm is assur, some fish would still be mutor without checking, if the worms don’t frequently appear in them. So unless the frozen packaged fish is possibly infested with a different species of worm, your rov must hold the anisakis to be assur, but is not concerned with fresh fish (and m’supok about canned salmon)because only a small percentage of these fish have anisakis in them.
In other words,if your rov held the anisakis is mutor, because it’s the same as described in the Shulchon Aruch, he would not assur frozen fish.
HIE:
It’s silly to declare that slowly, the rabbonim are coming around to agree with Rav Belsky when, firstly there is no evidence, and secondly, the other matirim have different reasoning.
If you want to declare a majority, please list all of the rabbonim on each side.
BTW, I do hear that Rav Shlomo Miller has changed his mind and is now osser. Rabbi Marcus said this in a shiur available on the YU website, http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/745156/Rabbi_Shmuel_Marcus/Worms_in_Fish:_When_Torah_and_Science_Collide?
and I confirmed this with a friend from Toronto.
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