August 16, 2012 12:52 am at 12:52 am #604581
don’t try to be a diffrent type of jew but rather a smaller version of the better jews thats “masai yagiu maasai lemase avosai abraham….”August 16, 2012 2:35 am at 2:35 am #892038
Oh goodness, you’re right! Avraham probably wore a turban and a jalabiya. I’m going to the Arab market first thing tomorrow morning!!August 16, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #892039
this is so funnyAugust 16, 2012 3:23 am at 3:23 am #892040
Would Rabbi Akiva Eiger z”l ask this question? so why do you??August 16, 2012 5:04 am at 5:04 am #892041
How do we know that Yaakov Avinu wore a kippa? Vetze Yaakov. Would Yaakov go out without a kippa?August 16, 2012 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #892042
Is it adar already?August 16, 2012 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #892043
Curiosity, I think you missed YidYid’s point.
If Avraham Avinu was alive today he’d have no reason to wear a turban, whereas it’s doubtful Rabbi Akiva Eiger would be a srugi. (To be sure, I think there are many srugis no less frum than most us heimeshe).August 16, 2012 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #892044
Would R’ Akiva Eiger count a chossid as part of a minyan? Probably not, as he held they were apikorsim.August 17, 2012 12:19 am at 12:19 am #892045
Proud Hungarian. I understand his point very well. It’s you who misunderstood mine. His statement is so superficial and nonsensical that I had to respond with something equally so.August 17, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #892046
yidyid- is the expression “masai yagiu malbushai limalbush avosai”?
The mishna in maseches taanis points out that it does not say by the people of ninvei that “Hashem saw their sackcloth and fasting” but rather that “He saw their actions and teshuva”.
On the list of challenges facing klal yisrael today, the fabric of one’s yarmulka is pretty low down.
In my humble opinion, it seems you have fallen to the temptation of knocking others to make yourself feel superior. (either that or i have fallen to a troll thread)
If I am wrong, and this thread was inspired by a true feeling of defense of Hashem’s Kavod (although I feel that it is completely misguided) I apologize for believing otherwise.August 17, 2012 3:03 am at 3:03 am #892047
Symbolism isn’t superficial. The fact Mizrahi changed the color of their yarmukahs mean something, that was yidyuids pointrAugust 17, 2012 4:28 am at 4:28 am #892048
Proud Hungarian, they held that the black-clad Hungarians and others were wrong in their approach. And the truth is that the Tanoim did not look like Satmar chassidim. Do not start counting from mid-19 century — Klal Yisroel is much older than that.August 17, 2012 4:56 am at 4:56 am #892049
Yidyid,they did not want to be Yids — they wanted to be Bnei Yisroel.August 17, 2012 5:15 am at 5:15 am #892050
“they held that the black-clad Hungarians and others were wrong in their approach…. “
Mind you it wasn’t only the Hungariams who were black clad and Hungarians or their predecessors didn’t as far as we know intentionally change forsake the appearance of the Tanaim. Mizrachi intentionally changed the appearance of their kipot.
I’m not trying to argue who’s right or wrong… I just think some people were missing the point of the post: “Would Rabbi Akiva Eiger z”l wear a “kippa sruga”?so why do you?? don’t try to be a diffrent type of jew but rather a smaller version of the better jews thats “masai yagiu maasai lemase avosai abraham….”August 17, 2012 5:34 am at 5:34 am #892051
Symbolism isn’t superficial, but judging others by the color or material of the cloth on their head IS. Im a BT, and went to a large black hat Yeshiva where everyone wore felt yarmulkas. I bedavka stuck with my regular old black srugi style that I had before going there, and besheetah didn’t give in to the peer pressure of trying to fit in to the cookie cutter mold. Not to rub it in people’s faces, but to live by my creed that the cloth on your head doesn’t determine who you associate with, how learned you are, or your level of dveikus to Hashem. I’ll have you know I made plenty of friends there, was successful in learning, and was just as frum as the average guy there. If someone there felt that I was less frum than they are bc of the type of kipa I wore then I didn’t detect it, but they would have realized they were wrong when they saw that I became a key player in the shiur. I’m not saying this out of gaivah (I’m still anonymous after all), but I think it spells out my point very well.August 17, 2012 11:37 am at 11:37 am #892052
Rabbi Akiva Eiger surely did not wear the same type of head covering as the Rambam or Rif and quite frankly it did not concern him. What mattered to him was the torah of the Rambam and the Rif, not their head covering at the time they said over their torah.August 17, 2012 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #892053
Would the Chofetz Chaim zt”l wear a “Straimel”? so why do you?? don’t try to be a diffrent type of jew but rather a smaller version of the better jews thats “masai yagiu maasai lemase avosai abraham….”
Would Ezra Hasofer zt”l wear a “Borsalino”? so why do you?? don’t try to be a diffrent type of jew but rather a smaller version of the better jews thats “masai yagiu maasai lemase avosai abraham….”
I think I will use a handkerchief, like some women put on their heads when they light candles. Rav Kehana was known for wearing one, so at least I know that I am good there.
?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? Kiddushin 8aAugust 17, 2012 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #892054
Perhaps it is you, YidYid, who is trying to be a different kind of Jew. The kind of Jew I am trying to be learned Torah AND plowed the land and held a spear, ready to discuss a sugya, to take trumah and maaser, to give leket and peah, but also to fight in milchamos – mitzvah, reshus, and chovah – that am yisroel required. I am trying to be the kind of Jew who not only pays attention to his personal responsibilities to HKBH, but also takes care of his national responsibilities to HKBH, which too many who wear velvet kappels have forgotten. It happens to be that the ones doing ALL these things are the ones wearing kipot srugot.
So who does that put michutz lamachane? You, or him?August 17, 2012 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #892055
“Rabbi Akiva Eiger surely did not wear the same type of head covering as the Rambam or Rif and quite frankly it did not concern him.”
Again you can’t compare a meaningless unintentional change in style to an ideological break from the past.
I also agree with Curiosity that judging others by the color or material of the cloth on their head is wrong. But that doesn’t mean Mizrachi’s intentional break with the religious dress mode of their time is not indicative of a deeper break with Mesorah in a way which is wrong.August 17, 2012 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #892056
Feif Un- Dont just make stuff up. And how dare you?! R’ Akiva Eiger respected the Chassidim and said the misnagdim spoke false against them. See the Baal HaTanya’s son’s letter here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31632&st=&pgnum=301August 17, 2012 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #892057
Many Hasidim wear knitted yarmulkes? Clearly there is no halachic issue involved in one style of yarmulke over another.
All clothes are somewhat political. Wearing a double-breasted suit with a homburg projects a different image than a three-button jacket with a fedora, and a different image than not wearing a jacket and wearing a baseball cap. This has a lot to do with fashion, not halacha.August 17, 2012 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #892058
Not comment on his opinion of chasidim, but using the son of the Baal Hatanya as the sole source of a nonchasisdic rabbi’s opinion of chasisidm leaves us with a pretty weak proof of his positionAugust 17, 2012 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #892059
What kind of Hat Does Rav Ovadia Yosef wear?
I am sure he knows the Halachas tooAugust 18, 2012 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #892060
Proud Hungarian, why do you say mizrachis break with the dress of the learned in their generation? The frum mizrachis in Israel that dress in black, white and Fedora are the ones breaking from tradition. The learned Mizrachis of Morocco, Iraq, Yemen, and Syria didn’t have felt yarmulkas and black suit jackets. The frum mizrachis who moved to Israel only adopted the style 60+ years ago from Western culture and the Ashkenazis in eretz Yisrael… About the same time that coloreful knitted yarmalkas were introduced. Saying that they are breaking from tradition because they don’t dress like Hungarians is wrong. Otherwise, you should encourage them to dress in a jalabiya and Fez. Throughout time in galus Jews adopted more or less the style of dress of the places they lived in, not of their grandfathers’ clothes from last century’s fashion. It happens to be that today black, white, and wide brim is not society’s dress, it’s the frum crowd’s way of separating from society. If anything, the should dress business casual with colored shirts, no ties, and narrow brims. That is the way the MKs and businessmen dress in Israeli society. The Chareidim of today abandoned Jewish tradition of dressing like chashuv members of society.August 18, 2012 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #892061
I understand Gedolim advise a ben Torah to dress like a ben Torah, but why do bnei Torah not dress like the gedolim did when they were the bnei Torah’s age? (Ie: in line with respectable, middle-of-the-road, modern society.)August 19, 2012 5:47 am at 5:47 am #892062
RavHamachshir- I don’t see how it’s a week proof *at all*, and I never said its the only proof, and it isn’t. Please explain what makes it a week proof. What are you suspecting, a lie or a misunderstanding? Why would you suspect that?August 19, 2012 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #892064
Kozov: I think his point is that the Ba’al Hatanya’s son might have been Nogeya B’davar. But that’s irrelevant. RA”E is known to not have been an enemy of the Chassidim, though he never publicly endorsed them either. (There are stories that his son tore Kriya when R’ Leibele became a Chassid, but none of those are sourced anywhere near the actual Ma’aseh and were probably made up well after everyone involved had passed away.) But Feif’s point stands, even if RA”E is a poor example. Just replace him with the GR”A and the point is perfect.August 19, 2012 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #892065
The comparison to the Gra is invalid for a multitude of reasons, including (but not limited to) a) the Gra was specifically referring to specific chasidim of his time not all chasidim or future generations for the next 300 years b) the Gra’s successors have made up with Chasidim and have accepted them as full ehrlich bnei Torah for well over 100 years already (and on this basis we can assume the Gra would agree with the metzius of the current situation and c) based on “b”, we can even assume the Gra would agree his initial assessment may have been mistaken. (But even if you disagree with point “c”, the first two points stand.)August 19, 2012 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #892066
Sam, I’m afraid that might have been his point, but nu… feer ois, what does that have to do with anything? I also dont understand the relevance of his point to this thread. I also dont see why you would substitute him for the Gra, it is so irrelevant, its like bringing up those against the Rambam. Also while you try to defend Feif Un you hypocriticially bring up a story that has much less bearing on the case at hand than anything I said.
Englishman well said. I’ll add that its actually been 200 years starting as soon as R Chaim Volozhiner and that people curiously skip out point c as an option. And it seems to me that people here and in general have a perverse, un-Torahdik, attraction to bringing up this controversy and like to jump to conclusions, assumptions, assertions, when most of the time it is completely incorrect. They totally disregard the reality that they are speaking against hundreds of Tzaddikim (baalei mofes if you want a mofes). So dont go “he did so why cant I?” or “Its not my opinion”. And making light of it like saying Nanachs and Lubabs does not stay with you, it spreads and breeds more misinformation with people who do become serious with it, and say things like “the gzeira was never nisbatel” (like yitay who is supposed to be smart). And thats why Moshiach is not here yet (opinion of Gdolei Hador).August 19, 2012 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #892067
Sorry yitay if it wasnt you. Im still looking for the person who said that but i remeber that it surprised me. I cant edit anymore.August 20, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #892068
Kozov, take it easy. Eventhough, the current Litvishe Gedolim do not fight the Chassidim so much, it does not mean that they do not object to a number of their shittos. Mofsim do not prove much — somebody needs to know the Sheimos and be choshuv enough and do it le’shem Shamaim. It does not mean that he is right about all of his shittos.August 20, 2012 3:58 am at 3:58 am #892069
mdd: Litvishe Gedolim object to a number of the shittos of other Litvishe Gedolim — and Chasidishe Gedolim object to a number of the shittos of other Chasidishe Gedolim. It’s been like that for over 2,000 years. And it’s normal and acceptable and it’s all Torah.
Nevertheless, the Litvish Gedolim sit with the Chasidishe Gedolim on the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah as well as on many other inter Litvish-Chasidish functions. (Agudas Yisroel, Siyum HaShas, Yeshivos, etc.)
They each fully accept each other as Gedolei HaTorah. Need I quote for you the hespedim they gave for each other (i.e. The Satmar Rebbe’s amazing hesped of Rav Ahron Kotler at his levaya; or the hespedim by Rav Yitzchok Hutner and Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky of the Satmar Rebbe; and many others.)August 20, 2012 4:17 am at 4:17 am #892070
Englisgman, the reason why Litvishe Gedolim do not fight them so much is because they feel that that’s not the biggest problem facing Klal Yisroel now, and we can afford to have a fight within the frum camp these days, and we do not have enough koach to win.August 20, 2012 4:28 am at 4:28 am #892071
mdd- how would you know that?August 20, 2012 4:30 am at 4:30 am #892072
mdd: The Litvish Gedolim don’t “do not fight them so much“. The Litvish Gedolim do not fight them at all. And not only do they not fight them, they actually join them, as I mentioned above. And the reason they join them (and do not fight them at all), is because they hold of them as Gedolei Yisroel. And even if they may have different shittos on some halachic issues, they consider each other as full Torah-oriented kehillos.August 20, 2012 4:57 am at 4:57 am #892073
From Rav Yitzchok Hutner:
From Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky:August 20, 2012 11:27 am at 11:27 am #892074
Englishman and Kozov, ask alter Lakewooders if Reb Aharon was a Misnaged.August 20, 2012 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #892075
Rav Aharon Kotler’s son-in-law, a Chosid, who married his adopted daughter, sat up front of the Beis HaMedrash right in front of Reb Aharon (who sat facing everyone else) fully dressed Chasidish. Reb Aharon would welcome his best friend, the Chassidic Rebbe of Kupishnitz, with great love and affection. Reb Aharon was once asked by a student why he so respected the Kupishnitser Rebbe, and treated him so wondrously. Reb Aharon answered that the purity of this rebbe was what the goal of every Jew is. Everyone knows that the entire Agudas Israel founded by the Chofetz Chaim was filled with Chasidic rebbes such as the Gerrer Rebbe who was very close to the Chofetz Chaim and his disciple Reb Elchonon Wasserman. Reb Elchonon was very close with the Slonimer Rebbe and would go on Shabbos Shalosh Seudose to hear his talks. Litvishe Yeshivas in Europe such as Kaminets, with Reb Baruch Ber, had Chasidic talmidim. Reb Baruch Ber once wrote to a rebbe that he wanted more such students. This is from the recent book on Reb Baruch Ber HaRav HaDomeh LiMaloch.August 20, 2012 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #892076
Kozov – I haven’t commented on this thread (well I did make a joke in the beginning but the mods didn’t put it through…) but I’ll take the ochel from the psoless; thanks for the compliment. 🙂August 20, 2012 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #892077
Yes, gedolim of all stripes respect and honor each other, very much. This despite the fact that they wear very different head coverings. Head covering are not important to gedolim, only the peons who are looking for strife.August 20, 2012 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #892078
I think it’s pretty much unarguable that the ammended statement, vis, the Gra held that chassidim were apikorsim is demonstrably true. The fact that many litvish today do not is only proof of the point (that it’s irrelevant whether R’ Eiger would have worn a kippa sruga).August 20, 2012 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #892079
As was mentioned, when the source of a proof is nogea bedavar, the proof is suspect. At times there are several ways to see things, but the view of the son of the (potential) underdog (lets use the baal hatanya as a proxy for chasidim) that his father was not only correct, but that the dissenters were actually in agreement (save for other proofs which you had not yet furnished) seems a bit weak
RavHamachshir- I don't see how it's a week proof *at all*, and I never said its the only proof, and it isn't. Please explain what makes it a week proof. What are you suspecting, a lie or a misunderstanding? Why would you suspect that?August 20, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #892081
Shlishi, please, do ask the alter Lakewooders! It is true that Reb Aharon held that some Rebbes were very choshuve Yidden, but he very strongly disagreed with the Chassidishe shittos.August 20, 2012 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #892082
How do we know that Yaakov Avinu wore a kippa? Vetze Yaakov. Would Yaakov go out without a kippa?
And how do we know that Eisav put his hands in his pockets? Because where else would he put them?
And how do we know that they had Borses in those days? Cos Elazar said to Rivka “Bass me ‘at”!!August 21, 2012 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #892083
RavHamachsir- be more specific. What is he suspect for?August 21, 2012 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #892084
The gemorah has stories of amoraim not judging cases after receiving even the most minute favor. What were the amoraim suspect of?
The basic pshat is that shochad blinds(for details, see Toras Moshe [the bible] and its Meforshim).
You can be a good person as still make a mistake. So that rabbis didn’t judge cases where there was even the most minute amount of potential bias. It would seem that to use someone with a huge bias (every son looks up toward his father and presumably he was chasidic himself) to bring proofs like this is weak. he is not suspect for anything. Its just not the strongest proof.August 21, 2012 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #892085
I wasnt talking about the original matter. I was talking about how misnagdim forged bishmo statements against Chassidim and he denied it.
As far as that is concerned, first of all he was a Tzaddik and an Admur and a Gaon so to say he was a nogeia bidavar may be one thing, but to say he made a misjudgement on a matter that is relatively easy to determine (normal conversation (and the fact that he was received in the first place for a conversation shows something too) is another. Second of all this was a private letter (also it was to his son-in-law the Tzemach Tzedek to whom it was important that the facts be straight). Third of all he was masiach lfi tumo. Fourth of all this letter was not published until around a hundred and fifty years later. Fifth of all what does being nogeia bidavar have anything to do with the possibility that notwithstanding the undeniable machlokes there was a gadol who wasnt involved or had a different opinion, especially considering the *fact* that there were Gedolim who were soon going to, if not already were respecting, collaborating with, etc., Chassidim. And especially considering the *fact* that there were many *big* Rabbonim, some of which were even originally *Misnagdim* who *became* Chassidim.August 21, 2012 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #892086
Instead of concerning ourselves with what is ON our heads, let’s be concerned with what goes on INSIDE them. And ftr, we should be happy to see any Jewish male whose head is covered to show he is a Yid, because he has Yirah Malkah.
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