Would you ever withhold a ???

I used to believe that withholding a Get is never a legitimate means while negotiating. However, I’ve been involved with a few cases where the woman got her Get and the husband (and children) suffered grieve injustices as a result.

Withholding a Get is an incredibly complicated matter, and whilst it is rarely justified, there are certain circumstances where it would be most appropriate.

I don’t think the example of her cheating is a good one, since under Jewish law in such a situation he is required to divorce her even if they both would have liked to stay married after that.

Another factor in this discussion is that a woman is not entitled to a get/divorce under Jewish law simply because she demands one. Jewish law stipulates the circumstances when she is or is not entitled to a divorce.

Your extreme example is realer than you think – little random me even knows a case eerily similar (B”H resolved).

It’s kind of ironic, really. In order to even out the playing ground, women gain the sympathy advantage – which they in turn use to abuse the men. But I guess it’s inevitable.

Its never a good idea, if the marriage is over, give a get.

Oomis, there is no such a mitsva ase, amd the marriage is not over until there is a get. As the Horses Moth(??!) pointed out there are situations where she is entitled to demand a get and there others when she is not.

If this is a Halachic issue then what is the purpose of the discussion. We must do Halacha regardless of how we feel. Sometimes keeping Halacha may not be comfortable and may sometimes let the “bad guy” win but we have to remember that Hashem runs the world and its our job to keep Halacha. He will take care of making things “right.”

MDD, with all due respect to you, the Torah specifically says that if a man finds something unseemly in his wife, (and the Gemarah goes so far as to say even if she burns his meals), he should give her a sefer kritut, a GET. That most certainly is a mitzvas asei.

It is not a mitzvah to WANT to divorce, but once that marriage is emotionally and physically over, it is a mitzvah to give her a Get, so she is free to marry someone else if she so desires. E.g. al pi Torah, it is an aveirah to withhhold it, and a man who does so is intransigent and a rasha, even if he is a “nice guy.” He may feel he has very solid reasons for doing so, but that is for a court fight, NOT a GET fight. IMO, men who look for reasons to withhold a GET, even from the most obnoxious, disgusting, shrew of a wife, are doing it out of revenge. It certainly is not consistent with Torah observance. The fact that a woman may in some circumstances demand a GET has not made it easier for women to get one from the husbands who really don’t care about what the Torah actually mandates in these circumstances. Many men are also having problems with women who refuse to accept and use the kids as leverage. That is sad and tragic, but the GET should not be a tool in this. Go to the secular courts and fight for your rights, but give a GET when one is supposed to be given.

My marriage recently ended, and at the outset of the separation things were pretty ugly. Nonetheless, and after working on reconciling for a number of months, and finally determining the marriage was over, I gave the get and would never have held it over her head, even if I had had to fight tooth and nail in beis din, court, or anywhere else for my rights (b’h didn’t work out that I had to). It is just wrong and flies in the face of everything that I believe about yashrus and treating a fellow human being, even one I couldn’t live with anymore, with respect. It would have been a terrible lesson to our children, who are old enough to understand the implications of withholding. My relationship with them and the respect I hope they will have for me is worth more than the leverage a get presents. I can see no valid reson for withholding a get. If there arte circumstances where the woman is acting in a cruel and manipulative way, there are other, better means to fight, that don’t compromise the conscience or dishonour the soul.

DY, I don’t know which Rabbonim you are talking about, but “leverage” means blackmail, and I don’t know any Rabbonim who believe that blackmail is permitted according to the Torah. It isn’t. So no matter which way you twist and turn it, it is still blackmail. Of course if you are trying to get me to say there are Rabbonim that will of course advise you otherwise, it is you who said it not me.

Yichusdik, I am so sorry for your tzaar, but I am really impressed with the maturity of how you handled this. Your kids will be the primary beneficiaries of your seicheldig and responsible behavior.

oomis: Sure it is assur to go to the secular courts even if it “involves secular laws”. Besides, halacha tells us who should have custody, halacha tells us how to split the assets, and it is prohibited according to halacha to use non-Jewish laws on these matters instead of basing the decision on how Jewish law/halacha rules on these matters.

“.. We all have to answer to the law of the land.”

Let me try to fix that one. We all have to answer to the Ribono Shel Olam. Also, being that we’re in a foreign land, we follow its laws too, as much as Halachah permits.

i know (knew) someone, went to high school with him. he died suddenly in his forties of an unusual heart condition. about 2 weeks after he told Bais Din he would not ever, under any circumstances, ever give his wife a Get.

I am in the midst of going through a divorce and all I can say is that a well respected marriage counselor told me {sic} “when rosh hashona and yom kippur come around he hopes that all of those who are withholding a get for extortion (financial) purposes are not granted what they are davening for”

there’s a story with R’ Akiva Eiger telling a husband who refuses to give a get that his wife WILL be freed, either through a get or thru his death. the man says “never” and walks out, tripping on the steps and breaking his neck.

Popa – Not everyone holds it is so simple. Did you read that Ami article?

Oomis,

It’s very questionable (to put it mildly) if dina d’malchusa applies to this. However, it might be permissible to use the secular courts in some cases; abuse might fit the bill, if it’s the only way to protect the victim, but of course, a posek must be consulted.

this is mainly directed at oomis and aries, but I welcome comments from anybody.

lets switch things around a bit.

a man wants to divorce his wife. She being a good bas yisroel has decided that she will not muddy things by going to secular court and will deal through bais din. Meanwhile, he has started spreading false rumors that she’s crazy and abuses the kids. unfortunately he is believed. For the “safety of the kids” he’s trying to get full custody. He throws in a few “facts” about how he was verbally abused for all these years. She stands to get almost nothing financially. (they rent an apartment so there’s no real assets to speak of)

This gem of a guy has already found someone else to marry. Only thing stopping him is the wife’s reluctance to accept the get. She knows that once she accepts it she is left with nothing and loses her kids.

Does she stand her ground, knowing it’s the only leverage she has to see her kids again? or does she accept the get and let him “move on” because you never ever ever play games with a get once the marriage is over?

With all due respect to you, mdd, you may indeed know halocho better than oomis or me or anyone else. And, as a man, and as someone who has been in the parsha, you are right, sometimes a woman has a right to demand a get, and sometimes not. But that has nothing at all to do with the yashrus and the right choice of the man giving the get. He is either glach or he isn’t. But coming back to you, you may be a boki, or an illui, or both, but it has nothing to do with your gender.

It certainly has to do with the gender – men learn Gemora and S.A., and women don’t.

I am not a posek or a talmid Chacham, but it seems to me that to get a divorce, you have to go to a civil court. It may be an uncontested divorce or not, but marriage in the US is a civil matter and a secular divorce is necessarily.

I agree that there may be a FEW times when withholding or not accepting a get might be legitimate, but the average case involves a man who just wants to hurt the woman. Sorry, but that is how it is.

I don’t know if the picture circulating on FB is the same one that there was a demonstration about on Sunday, but if that is the case, Rabbi Auman from the YI of Flatbush was there and encouraged people to go. Knowing him, I’m sure he checked out the details and knew the husband was wrong.

Just me: After the beis din adjudicates all the divorce issues, including asset separation and custody al pi halacha, it can be legally filed uncontested by both parties accepted based upon the Beis Din’s decision, based on Jewish law. There is no excuse to have it decided based on secular law in contravention with halacha (an extremely severe violation of halacha).

Also, in most cases in fact where this occurs (which is actually a very small number of get cases), there is in fact a legitimate reason for its withholding.