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  • #1887709
    BY1212
    Participant

    So now that Yale professors have stated that hundreds of thousands could have been saved by Dr. Zelenkos, may Hashem send him a רפואה שלימה, prescription:

    What foolish terutzim do all the “doctors” and ibberchochoms of the coffee room have to justify continuing enjoying the mass deaths bc those deaths shtuch and enable them to feel good about being כפויי טובה to the best President the us has ever seen?

    #1887799
    2scents
    Participant

    The problem is that politics and biases are a factor, on both sides of the argument.

    This should be a scientific and fact-driven discussion.

    Even your post has politics in it, you have demonstrated your political bias and even inserted it as part of your argument. You are guilty of the same thing you are accusing others.

    #1887827
    BY1212
    Participant

    You call it political bias. Not really. It is a concern over the dangers these lockdowns pose to America. Which both parties seem to ignore. The kungflu immune riots which after 2 month show no signs of abating and were obviously made possible by the lockdowns.

    It is a shame that you feel this is a political issue. I guess on some level the great depression was a political issue as well as it gave rise to fdr and Nazi Germany.

    #1887830
    2scents
    Participant

    “It is a shame that you feel this is a political issue. I guess on some level the great depression was a political issue as well as it gave rise to fdr and Nazi Germany.”

    Actually, your proving my point.

    This is NOT a political issue, yet both sides are inserting their biases into this discussion.

    To rephrase, this is not a political issue, yet it is being used for political reasons with no regard for the science.

    #1887831
    charliehall
    Participant

    The Yale Professor has been proven wrong. Three large randomized studies were stopped early, two because they had progressed to the point where we knew that they could not show that hydroxychloroquine does not help treat COVID-19, the other because they could not get enough people to participate in the study. Furthermore, even the decent observational studies, with only one exception, showed that hydroxychloroquine was not helpful.

    The lockdowns have led to a spectacular drop in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths in New York. Ending lockdowns in Florida, Texas, and Arizona led to increases in all three.

    There really isn’t anything to discuss here.

    #1887836
    1
    Participant

    Why haven’t askonim come to bat for Dr. Zelenko. He clearly had positive results.

    #1887844
    BY1212
    Participant

    And of course Charlie ignores the harm done to ny in the meantime edited!

    #1887848
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Why haven’t askonim come to bat for Dr. Zelenko. He clearly had positive results.”

    He didnt, as I elaborated in the lengthy thread on this topic.
    Breifly:
    His population was younger than average ( no one was over 70)
    his population was healthier than average (for example none had COPD)

    And finally it did not show a statistically significant benefit in mortality for the group who got HCQ ( although they were younger/healthier than those who didn’t)

    see here https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hydroxychloroquine/page/8

    #1887850
    bk613
    Participant

    “The lockdowns have led to a spectacular drop in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths in New York. Ending lockdowns in Florida, Texas, and Arizona led to increases in all three.”

    Its amazing how you consider NY results “spectacular.” Which part of over 32,000 deaths is spectacular? You can just as easily attribute the drop in cases and deaths in NY to the fact that the virus ran its course. Hundreds of thousands (if not millions) already got the virus and have immunity and unfortunately, all those who wouldn’t survive already passed away.
    Yes, cases are rising in the States you mentioned. They will no matter when a State reopens. The states you mentioned are seeing 1/10 the daily deaths NY and NJ were seeing at their peaks, clearly they are doing something better than Cuomo’s epic disaster.
    A lockdown isn’t going to make COVID disappear, remember it was “15 days to slow the spread” not “15 days to cure COVID”

    #1887856
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Hundreds of thousands (if not millions) already got the virus and have immunity”

    This is laughable. For seven weeks, only 2% of tests in NY have been positive — or less. That isn’t herd immunity. It does show however that after the lockdowns the virus spread was stopped in its tracks.

    Currently, Florida has about an 18% positive test rate, Arizona 21%, and Texas 12%. It ended lockdowns and the virus spread.

    Try learning some basic epidemiology.

    #1887865
    2scents
    Participant

    Charlie,

    Can you explain as to why once the lockdown has been lifted, the cases remained extremely low?

    Also, why is the hospitalization and death rate not matching those of NY/NJ despite the higher positive rate?

    With regards. to the studies that were stopped, can you elaborate as to the patients that were included in the study, patients at home with just mild symptoms such as were seen in the early phases of the illness, or those already admitted to a hospital?

    #1887890
    bk613
    Participant

    “This is laughable”
    A simple google search shows 229000 confirmed cases in NYC and 418000 in the state. This ignores all those who were told by their doctors at the height of the pandemic “you probably have covid but we don’t have enough testing so just stay home.” (an idea supported by State and local Gov.) and those who were asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic and didn’t seek care.
    See the following study DOI: 10.1126/scitranslmed.abc1126 which estimates that up to 80% of cases through March may have gone undiagnosed.
    Or this WAPO article from June 25: “CDC chief says coronavirus cases may be 10 times higher than reported”

    ” It does show however that after the lockdowns the virus spread was stopped in its tracks.”
    I don’t dispute lockdowns played a role in getting control of the situation in NY.
    Do you support remaining in lockdown until a vaccine is approved for the use?

    “Try learning some basic epidemiology.”
    I have common sense

    #1887918
    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -“Why haven’t askonim come to bat for Dr. Zelenko. He clearly had positive results.”
    “And finally it did not show a statistically significant benefit in mortality for the group who got HCQ”

    And posted this on that Topic:
    “Then they go on to tell us this -“The NYU Study found a 44% reduction in Mortality, when given before needing ICU Admission.”
    So the guy has a GREAT Question!

    #1887936
    BY1212
    Participant

    $0.02: When lancett publishes a garbage study against hcq that they have to retract , yes I guess it is indeed a political issue so much so that it has corrupted the experts whose opinions and studies against the treatment is worth as much as German experts scientific claims of Aryan superiority.

    When studies deliberately misuse hcq – not w the other 2 drugs and after 5 days and based on that make false claims – yes I would say “science” has been corrupted.

    When Dr. Zelenko and others all around the world successfully heal thousands of patients who tested positively for corona w almost 0 deaths and greatly reduced numbers of seriously ill only to be told we need more proof. Yes , the “science” against him is psuedoscience.

    Or when fauci first says corona is meh! and then on a dime decides it’s the modern black plague. Or that masks are just meh! and might only stop a droplet becomes wear a mask all the time or be fined for reckless endangerment.

    Or when the initial reason for this panic was claims by leading scientists at least we were told they were leading that there would be millions of deaths by may which turned to be a hoax which they admitted being horribly off on. (Here I am critical on Trump for falsely claiming credit when in fact it was all a lie to begin with)

    The who who are as reliable on kungflu as the musical the who comes out and says asymptomatic don’t transfer and all of a sudden someone didn’t like that and 3 days later they change their mind.

    Or the nejm telling us that no evidence exists that masks do diddly. But we are still being fined. Haven’t heard a retraction on that one yet but if yes it wouldn’t exactly inspire confidence in science.

    Or 100 Israeli doctors coming out last week in a letter stating lockdowns are pointless. And then stating what anybody is not a mindless programmable robot should figure out for himself wo the need for 100 Israeli doctors to echo:. The only sensible way to deal w the virus is to protect the vulnerable. How dumb and/or easily manipulated the while world is that they can’t figure it out?! And btw in the same letter these Israeli doctors said they felt the same way the first round of idiotic lockdown but were silenced.

    Or that rioters are immune to covid.

    Or that you need to wear a mask in a restaurant until you start eating bc you can’t infect while chewing.

    Whats in the public sphere being called science re kingflu is just politically motivated bunk no different German scientific proofs of Aryan superiority.

    Calling something science impressed all the dolts out there but the few remaining non robots will still use basic common sense know when trickery is afoot in the name of science.

    You know, as eineklach of avrhom avinu we are supposed to be the ivri on the other side – not get swept away by obvious propoganda like the rest of the world.

    But the ibberchochoms at the coffee table have more of an interest in preening and looking smart and high fiving themselves over their latest snide כפוי טוב remark re Trump bc the best way for mental midgets to feel good about their own intellect is to put down others than they do about actually saving lives. Saving lives means nothing to them.

    you need to keep these posts much shorter or they may get deleted

    #1887979
    som1
    Participant

    “What foolish terutzim do all the “doctors” and ibberchochoms of the coffee room have to justify continuing enjoying the mass deaths bc those deaths shtuch and enable them to feel good about being כפויי טובה to the best President the us has ever seen?”
    sadly the answer is that they knew it all along , but since trump touted the drug they had to make up false studies and all other garbage

    #1888008
    2scents
    Participant

    No one is enjoying any deaths, let alone mass deaths.

    Not sure you can be taken seriously when you make such vile accusations.

    #1888004
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Health

    “So the guy has a GREAT Question!”

    which guy?

    The question was about Dr. Zelenko, what does the NYU study have to do with him?

    #1888053
    Gog Umagog
    Participant

    and Noam Chomsky is a professor at M.I.T. Linguistics a Mathematical based subject, but attacks the State of Israel for the religious things it does that are actually correct.

    Also anti-semites worldwide go to Yale woopdy doo they aren’t Rav Rashi.

    #1888054
    Old Crown Heights
    Participant

    Since March 2020 Dr. Zelenko has said the HCQ just unlocks the cell for the ZINC to fight the virus. Fauci (who admitted lying about masks) did not say one word about zinc. Something feels so OFF about Fauci and the rest of the opposition to HCQ+Zinc. From the retracted lies about the drug being dangerous, to the constant repetition that HCQ isn’t effective when all along it has been the claim of the medical proponents of this treatment that it is actually the zinc that knocks out the virus.

    #1888057
    BY1212
    Participant

    Ubiq. When you obstinately ignore tje ramifications of 1000’s of people being treated successfully w hcq it is not a scientific opinion anymore. When you ignore studies that show vastly reduced rates of morbidity among hcq takers this is not science. It is your preconceived bias. If you are indeed a doctor you are much like doctors who I’ve seen in NYC emergency rooms who treat their patients like nuisances and basically ignore them. They have no interest in healing people just in strutting their title. “Look at me I’m a doctor and I know more than you so bug off, stop nudging me for help about your worthless know nothing relative. I’m too important for that”

    On such doctors נאמר: טוב שברופאים לגיהנום.

    #1888063
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I don’t know who you are, or who you think you are, but nothing gives you the right to berate a doctor sowith such vile accusations because he doesnt hold of a bunch of things you read up on.

    I have to say that both charlie and ubiq hate trump so much that i don’t know if i believe rhey can have ahonest view of hqc, but i also know thst there has never been any reason to question their integrity as doctors or their intelligence regarding their area of expertice.

    It’s tisha baav, in case you missed it, give it a rest.

    #1888067
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    BY1212
    “When you obstinately ignore the ramifications of 1000’s of people being treated successfully w hcq it is not a scientific opinion anymore.”

    source please

    “When you ignore studies that show vastly reduced rates of morbidity among hcq takers this is not science.”

    source please

    syag
    Thanks
    thouh
    “I have to say that both charlie and ubiq hate trump so much that i don’t know if i believe rhey can have a honest view of hqc”

    I’m not opposed to HCQ, I said from the start the risks were rare (though real) and it is worth a shot. Furthermore Even if it is a magic cure, what does it have to do with Trump its not like he thought of it he repeats all sorts of idiotic things he hears (“injecting a disinfectant” I know I know he never actually said that )

    #1888068
    ready now
    Participant

    “HOSPITALIZATIONS AND ALL-CAUSE DEATH In the treatment group 4 of 141 patients were hospitalized, which was significantly less than in the untreated group with 58 of 377 patients (15.4%), (fig 2.), (OR 0.16; [95% CI, 0.06 to 0.5]; p”
    from: COVID-19 Outpatients – Early Risk-Stratified Treatment with Zinc Plus Low Dose Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin: A Retrospective Case Series Study

    #1888086
    2scents
    Participant

    Some good news it seems like a vaccine will be available shortly and initial testing seems that it is safe and effective.

    #1888087
    Old Crown Heights
    Participant

    Rep. Louie Gohmert says he’s ‘all in’ on using hydroxychloroquine + zinc. Thank you for allowing us to see how the treatment will play out in your case. If it works (and I hope it does) I wonder if will HCQ+ Zinc will also cure TDS in future patients who suffer both conditions concurrently.

    #1888089
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” the risks were rare (though real) and it is worth a shot”

    And I agreed with that. And the shot failed. Those who continue to promote it are promoting medicine that is opposed by the science.

    The truth is that there never was any real evidence in its favor; anecdotes without comparison populations aren’t evidence and neither are studies so flawed as to be useless. It was the flawed French study that got Donald Trump (no epidemiology training), Peter Navarro (an arrogant epidemiologist who falsely claimed he understood how to read medical journal articles), and Rudy Giuliani (an arrogant lawyer whom I actually use as an example in my classes of someone who misunderstands epidemiology from the time when he falsely claimed that you have a better chance of surviving prostate cancer in the US than in the UK).

    “ignore studies that show vastly reduced rates of morbidity among hcq takers this is not science”

    There are no such studies, at least any such studies without flaws. Well, correct that. There might be one — the Henry Ford Health System study. But all other studies that are of good enough quality to matter show otherwise. More importantly, now that we have data from clinical trials, the observational studies don’t matter.

    What YOU claim is not science.

    ” i don’t know if i believe rhey can have ahonest view of hqc, but i also know thst there has never been any reason to question their integrity as doctors or their intelligence regarding their area of expertice.”

    You just attacked my integrity on Tisah B’Av. I am one of the few folks here who posts under my real name. I have a professional reputation.

    The doctors such as Dr. Zelenko who have been promoting HCQ do NOT have expertise in epidemiologic research and have refused to subject their protocols to the rigors of a clinical trial. Promoting unproven treatment is pure medical quackery, especially when the treatments have been shown NOT to be effective in the most rigorous research.

    Is there anyone else in this chat room who actually does epidemiologic research for a living?

    #1888091
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Ready

    a few things
    first Read what you quoted: HOSPITALIZATIONS were significantly less. Unfortunately DEATHS were NOT
    quote from the study: “was associated with significantly less hospitalizations and 5 times less all-cause deaths.”

    Note the change, while they WERE able to show that hospitalizations were significantly less (odds ratio 0.16, 95% CI 0.06-0.5). they WERE NOT able to show statistical significance (odds ratio 0.2, 95% CI 0.03-1.5; p=0.16)

    This is important. Say you have 1000 Covid patients divide them in two groups group A and Group B. You dont do anything different to the groups. You’d expect similar outcomes in both right? Is it IMPOSSIBLE that in 1 group all 500 live and the other group half die? of course not. It is very very unlikely but not impossible. Would you dream in that unlikely scenario that merely label a covid pt as “Group A” would lead o a better outcome? Of course not. you would correctly conclude that this was a fluke (assuming the 2 groups were in fact similar) .
    with me so far?
    So with any study. If the POSSIBILTY of “flukes” exist, how do you know that Group A who got the treatment did better in a statistically significant way? maybe it was a fluke?
    S othats where P values come in. A p value calculates the odds that the findings are due to chance alone. A P value of < 0.05 is taken to be “statisticly significant”.
    so with regard to hospitalizations the treated group had less hospitalizations thatn the untreated group. The p value was <0.001 this means that there is a less than 0.1% chance that thsi was due to chance alone. It is statistically significant (Though we will next have to examine if in fact it is just the HCQ that differentiates the groups).

    However., with regard to DEATH. The P value was 0.16. this is greater than 0.05 that means the study does NOT show that anything other than chance alone casues any difference between the 2 groups.

    Or to quote the studies discussion “Treatment with the triple therapy resulted in a numerically lower
    rate of all-cause deaths. In the absence of clinical details about the untreated patient
    group, THE LOWER RATE OF ALL-CAUSE- MORTALITY IN THE TREATED GROUP WAS NOT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT” (emphasis added, I mean caps for emphasis not yelling)

    Let me know if you are with me so far
    I want to keep this in manageable chunks. The next step would be to look at the 2 groups, but first its important to understand the conclusion, the study did NOT show reduction in death among the treated group.

    #1888110
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Trump buddy Herman Cain, (aka Mr. 999) was niftar today from Covid he likely contracted at an unmasked and socially undistanced Trump campaign event. He was also a big HCQ supporter. Sad to lose anyone to this affliction but perhaps this might get the attention of at least a few of the skeptics.

    #1888163
    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -““So the guy has a GREAT Question!”
    which guy?”

    #1 -“Why haven’t askonim come to bat for Dr. Zelenko”

    #1888193
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Health
    you said “And posted this on that Topic: “Then they go on to tell us this -“The NYU Study found a 44% reduction in Mortality, when given before needing ICU Admission.””

    could you please explain what this has to do with Dr. Zelenko?

    #1888216
    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -“could you please explain what this has to do with Dr. Zelenko?”

    Well he gave the same Drugs for Covid19, just in the Outpatient Setting!
    From that Topic:
    “This is from that NYU Study:”
    “We performed a retrospective observational study to compare hospital outcomes among patients who received hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc versus hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin alone.”

    #1888225
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Well he gave the same Drugs for Covid19, just in the Outpatient Setting!”

    yep he sure did.

    #1888319
    ready now
    Participant

    The study showed that people treated with Dr Z’s triple formula recovered to a large extent.
    The people who were not treated with the triple formula who were “outside the study” to a greater extent did not survive, bearing in mind some of this second group were “susceptible” and some were not.

    #1888367
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    reayd now

    “The study showed that people treated with Dr Z’s triple formula recovered to a large extent.”

    No it did not. Nor did it even claim to. The study showed a decrease in hospitilizations. The study TRIED to show a decrease in mortality, but was unable to do so .

    but do not take my word for it, from the study: “The lower rate of all-cause- mortality in the treated group was not statistically significant”

    #1888377
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    At this point, not more can be said about the broad applications of HCQ. The vast majority of refereed journals and medical experts reject its efficacy as a treatment or for prophylactic use. Any physician can still prescribe to their patients if they so decide. There is plenty available, most of which will probably sit in government warehouses and go out of date, courtesty of Peter Navaro. We wish Dr. Zelenko a refuah shelamah and lets move on.

    #1888379
    2scents
    Participant

    How does that add up?

    Less hospitalizations, but similar mortality level?

    Are these people dying at home, or do they have a greater mortality rate once hospitalized?

    #1888380
    BY1212
    Participant

    Sorry syag. People who desire more death in the world need to be called out. Being a חסיד שוטה is not an eitza.

    #1888381
    BY1212
    Participant

    Ubiq the sources are out their but totalitarians bent on having more people die will deny anything.

    Your best source is the lancett study which was retracted bc it was shown to be fraudulent. And the lancett debacle and the others which left out the main ingredients or studied patients past 5 days infection show that truth is being forcibly suppressed and any study ‘disproving’ hcq is הוחזק כפרן and maliciously can be assumed to be maliciously decietful. But you have enough rottenness to obnoxiously and
    smugly taunt sources please.

    Just like the doctors who represent 1000’s of others whose video was banned from you tube etc. (One was fired for expressing her medical opinion in order to cow other doctors from speaking truth) are not sources for you either. Neither is qdr. Zelenko’.

    #1888382
    daniela
    Participant

    @charliehall
    I am no MD but I have background in science

    I am fascinated by the debate about HCQ, yet the media hardly mention, say, remdesivir which has evidences. Can you explain? Thank you a lot

    #1888383
    BY1212
    Participant

    Americas Frontline Doctor Summit

    Ubiq vs. these doctors who actually care about saving lives? I’ll take these doctors.

    #1888384
    BY1212
    Participant

    If the thousands of doctors who claim hcq has enough evidence to be used clinically are right hundreds of thousands of lives would have and still might be saved. If they are wrong, people are out twenty bucks.

    If the death cult is right, nothing happens. If the death cult is wrong they are coconspirator in the mass murder of hundreds of thousands.

    Just to hurt Donald Trump.

    #1888386
    BY1212
    Participant

    Syag:.

    I have to say that both charlie and ubiq hate trump so much that i don’t know if i believe rhey can have ahonest view of hqc, but i also know thst there has never been any reason to question their integrity as doctors

    This sentence is a סתירה מרישא לסיפא. Do I need to explain to you why?

    #1888387
    BY1212
    Participant

    Syag: you know what I’ll do you the Tova:

    If they are willing to defame a drug which can potentially save hundreds of thousands of lives bc of their hatred of trump this would be a gross lack of integrity as a doctor and a horrible indictment as to their character. Indeed someone who is an accomplice in any form to mass death is quite בזוי מאוד, no?

    And yet in that sentence it was you, not me who entertained such a possibility? Wasn’t yesterday Tisha b’av?

    טול קורה מבין עיניך

    #1888393
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Ubiquitin,
    Thank you so much for your posts on these threads! You have a way to teach intelligently, even in such a non formal setting. I find your explanations on how to properly read a study very informative.

    #1888439
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Neither Ttrump, R’ Zelenko etc. have cited a single randomized, placebo controlled trial has shown efficacy in Covid treatment by HCQ (with or w/o zinc). Indeed, the few such studies of HCQ have shown the opposite. The authors of the Ford Health system study that is repeatedly cited in relation to HCQ efficacy have acknowledged that their study was not a randomized, placebo controlled trial but also that a relatively large percentage of trial participants were being treated with steroidal medications.

    edited

    #1888445
    Health
    Participant

    GH -“The vast majority of refereed journals and medical experts reject its efficacy as a treatment…”

    That’s because those studies didn’t combine it with Zinc.
    I posted a study that when you combine with Zinc – it’s very effective!
    Why are you so against HCQ? Is it because Trump promoted it & you Suffer from TDS?!?

    #1888440
    Old Crown Heights
    Participant

    “a decrease in hospitilizations. The study TRIED to show a decrease in mortality, but was unable to do so.”

    – This I don’t get. The study showed a decrease in hospitalizations: I take this to mean that among those who took the Zelenko Protocol (HCQ+Zinc+) fewer patients got sick enough to require hospitalization. This sounds like a win. A major win certanily worth trying since the alleged danger from taking HCQ was false.
    “Unable to show a decrease in death.” Certainly the opponents to HCQ aren’t claiming that Zelenko’s patients stayed home and died. So what do they mean?
    The total death rate from COVID is low. People (especially if they don’t check all the risk-boxes, old, sick etc.) can get very sick, but then not die (even without HCQ+zinc). Zelenko didn’t claim that taking HCQ+zinc is the ONLY way people won’t die. What Zelenko claimed and the evidence that his patients required less hospitalization SHOWED (as I understand it with no medical knowledge) is that patents who take HCQ+Zinc+ early have a greater likelihood of beating COVID without the prolonged nasty battle which can require hospital, respiration etc. etc. If the protocol doesn’t decrease OVERALL DEATH, but helps (the people who might not DIE even without the protocol) prevent the need from hospitalization and the long crazy battle to beat the virus is that not reason enough to take the protocol?

    #1888441
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It came up in the congessional commitee using zinc as a supplement to hydroxy and Dr. Fauci said that he cannot rely on it because it was not a randomized study.

    #1888455
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    There are dozens of medications being tested for covid. Anybody has a good reason why only one is a public debate? Does anyone think that the (majority of) public supporters of a certain medicine that I cannot spell correctly, are being scientific about it?

    PS I put in the parenthesis because it seems like one of our own posters [Health] discusses mostly the scientific angle. Additionally please consider, it is possible for one doctor to have done good work with a medication that cannot be replicated by others. Because it was more about the doctor than the treatment.

    #1888458
    Health
    Participant

    RE -“It came up in the congessional commitee using zinc as a supplement to hydroxy and Dr. Fauci said that he cannot rely on it because it was not a randomized study.”

    Who cares what he says?!?
    These Government Health agencies survive – when there is Disease & No Easy Treatment!

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