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2scents
“Less hospitalizations, but similar mortality level?
Are these people dying at home, or do they have a greater mortality rate once hospitalized?”There are many drugs that have this affect (I cant think of any off hand)
It cna mean a lot of things
For example lets say with out HCQ there are different groups
Group A – Have coronoa don’t even know it
Group B- Have mild symptoms, or not severe enough to warrant hospitalization
Group C – Get very sick go to hospital and do better
Group D – Get very sick go to the hospital and sadly die.For illustrative purpses lets say 50% of the population is in group A, 30% in group B 10% in Group C and 10% in group D. (I’m making these number up this isnt based on real data)
Obviously The ultimate goal is to get as many people out of Group D as possible.
Dr. Zelnko’s study sadly did not show any statistically significant reduction in those in group D.
It DID however show a reduction in Group C these people did not get hospitalized, again these are people who without HCQ would have lived anyway.
So for example you could now have 50% in Group A 35% in Group B 5% in Group C and 10% in group D.
Those who died are the same with or without HCQ (10 % in each scenario) but those who were hospitalized (Group C+D) before HCQ was 20% after was 15%
Now this is by no means Nothing. Many of those who survived had brutal hospitalizations with months of recovery . Reduction in Hospitalizations is not nothing.
BUT it isnt reduction in mortalityN0M
thanks!
Oldcrownheights
“This I don’t get. The study showed a decrease in hospitalizations: I take this to mean that among those who took the Zelenko Protocol (HCQ+Zinc+) fewer patients got sick enough to require hospitalization. This sounds like a win”
It is!
however.
there is another problem with the study.
whenever a study is down to show a difference you need to look at the baseline characteristics of the two groups. For example If I did a demonstration to show that my new detergent works better than the one you use, it wouldn’t be very meaningful if I showed you that by using my new detergent to clean mildly dirty laundry compared to your detergent on say, grass and blood stains . Fair?Look at his Group A in which he treated all aged > 60.
How many of these 69 patients were over 70? zero! (easiest to say in table 2 of his study)
In the general population how many of those older than 60 are older than 70?
About half (data from statista)
How many of them have COPD ? Zero!
How many of the general population > 60 has COPD ? About 10%*So his treatment group of those > 60 are younger and healthier than the general population
Of course they had fewer hospitalizations! Who is to say that is due to HCQ?Please don;t take my word for it. Look at his study table 2 . Where this data is outlined
* unfortunately we dont know much about the control group he is comparing it to ” Independent public reference data from 377 confirmed COVID-19 patients of the same community were used as untreated control” We have no idea anything about them . I’m assuming they are representative of the US population in Age/comorbidities. But we dont know they could be much older and sicker or younger . I’m assuming average
“Certainly the opponents to HCQ aren’t claiming that Zelenko’s patients stayed home and died. So what do they mean?”
See my other response directed to 2scents“If the protocol doesn’t decrease OVERALL DEATH, but helps (the people who might not DIE even without the protocol) prevent the need from hospitalization and the long crazy battle to beat the virus is that not reason enough to take the protocol?”
I absolutely is! I’m sorry if by saying “only hospitalizations” I downplayed that. That is huge. I think people should quote it accurately though (plus the other big problem as mentioned above that the case and control are not necessarily comparable))“Who cares what he {Fauci} says?!?….These Government Health agencies survive – when there is Disease & No Easy Treatment!”
So true…..We should be much more willing to rely on experts such as the Trumpokopf and his gang of “medical experts” he finds on Fox and Breitbart and most importantly, the world class medical experts here in the CR than our own government’s medical health experts.. The latter are all part of the “deep state” and want as many Americans as possible to die from Covid so as to defeat the Trumpkopf. Our kiddush club has decided to add a splash of chlorox to the first round of l’chayim scotch in honor of the Trumpkopf’s contributions to medical science and defeating the Invisible Enemy.
P.S. TDS has been shown to be an inevitable outcome of reading the Trumpkopf’s tweets on Covid treatment.“If the thousands of doctors who claim hcq has enough evidence to be used clinically are right hundreds of thousands of lives would have and still might be saved. If they are wrong, people are out twenty bucks.
If the death cult is right, nothing happens. If the death cult is wrong they are coconspirator in the mass murder of hundreds of thousands.
Just to hurt Donald Trump.” well said by1212
health, call yourself sick and not health.
See a Newsweek article by Fred Guterl dated July 28, 20 on hydroxy tests.
health, give up sadly there’s no use talking facts and logic to them!! i used to think they were just democrats now i see that their part of the leftists cult the only way to convince them anything would be with “cult deprogramming” which you cant do over a online chat
Dear Som,
Major epidemics are not brought to heel through medication. There is no medication that would have saved thousands. Medicine does not solve ‘contagious’ or ‘overwhelmed’.On this site, it is the supporters of Trump who kept bringing it back up. It would have been forgotten among all the other medical statements from the President. Nobody should think that his handling of the pandemic hinges on if he was right about one treatment.
RE -“See a Newsweek article by Fred Guterl dated July 28, 20 on hydroxy tests.”
1. Why should I? Post it here – if you want.
2. Most likely he’s against HCQ & Zn. Does he have any medical degrees?
So In your mind, I should rely on him & disregard my medical knowledge?
Do you think that the Torah would agree with that approach?!?“It DID however show a reduction in Group C these people did not get hospitalized, again these are people who without HCQ would have lived anyway.”
How do you know they would have lived? That is simply an assumption.It is Hashem who decides not a tablet after all, yet we are told by Hashem we must consult a doctor. ‘
The book of cures was hidden so that we should repent.health, Dr. Fauci, ostricized by the Trump administration, has greater medical knowledge than you do. The Newsweek article has impartial facts about tests. Maybe we should use disinfectants?
Ubiq,
My post was directed at Charlie Hall who put down other posters making it sound like some states got all wrong and as if there is some authoritative consensus as to how to deal with the virus.
While progress has been made, there are still a lot that is unknown. Including as to why other states have much less hospitalizations and death rates than others.
health, how can you say such stupidity, government agencies survive if they encourage more virus? Trump is the leader of all these government agencies, so he also encourages having more virus. The fish stinks from the head.
Ready
“How do you know they would have lived? That is simply an assumption.”Because Dr Zelenkos study did not show an improvement in mortality, only in hospitalizations.
“It is Hashem who decides not a tablet after all, ”
So fartig. Forget hcq
RE -“Dr. Fauci, ostricized by the Trump administration, has greater medical knowledge than you do.”
And how do you know that? You don’t know me medically & you don’t even know him medically, even though he’s Out there!
“The fish stinks from the head.”
Right – the head of these Gov. agencies.
Btw, even Fauci didn’t deny that Zn & HCQ works against Covid19.
He said he needs a Randomized, Placebo, Controlled Study.
He doesn’t care one way or another.
He feels it’s Not his job to Save people LIVES.
So if it’s not his job to get rid of this Pandemic, what is the Purpose of ALL these Gov. Health agencies?!?“Please don;t take my word for it. Look at his study table 2 . Where this data is outlined.”
Ubiquitin: In my estimation you’ve 100% established yourself as a good faith poster, I for one don’t need to verify everything you maintain.
Thank you for your patience the example of the laundry soap and explaining the better health of Zelenko Group A and that we have no info at all on the control group. I now get why the medical professionals say Dr. Zev Zel’s research is ‘inconclusive.’ That said, to quote Zelenko, ‘If you’re floundering in the ocean and come upon a piece of driftwood, grab it and hang on. Don’t drown waiting for a rigorous double-blind study on the buoyancy of driftwood.’ I’ve been watching the doctor speak on numerous videos, especially his conversation with ‘Doctor Drew.’ I have zero doubt that Dr. Zelenko is a sane, responsible western medical doctor. Anyone could be in error, but there is nothing about him that gives off an ulterior motive. Unlike quacks who just happen to have the ‘silver bullet’ for sale, Zelenko doesn’t sell HCQ. He’s also unequivocal that it’s the zinc gotten into the cell within the first five days of illness that kill the virus. Every article I read about the ‘studies’ that didn’t find a benefit from HCQ (so far) without exception use a slight of hand. They either discuss HCQ without mention of zinc or make no mention of when they initiated the HCQ treatment. They all seem to have an agenda and ulterior motive (which I imagine to be political or financial).
Can you point me to other studies on HCQ+Zinc+ given to people under 70 within the first five days of illness that found no efficacy?Did she want to take HCQ? If so why did not Dr Zelenko provide her with the prescription and medications?
“Dr. Zelenko tells of a 29 yr. Old pregnant woman who contracted covid and asked him about hcq etc. which he told her to take. But her local doctor said no. She ended up losing her baby and is now braindead and on a ventilator.”
Don’t you think this horrible alleged story would have made its rounds in the Jewish media and WhatsApp groups if it were true?
There seems to be legitimate critiques of Dr Zelenko’s study. Why isn’t he out in the media addressing these perfectly valid questions and instead is tweeting things like “My paper IS a rigorous iron clad statically significant analysis of my field tested patient data” and wild stories like the one above?
If Dr. Zelenko felt this woman should take it why didn’t he prescribe it? editedBY1212 -“So she was cruelly denied a path that might have saved her and her baby by the fauci’s and ubiqs of the world and condemned to certain death.”
I believe in HCQ & Zn for Covid, but you have No right to blame Fauci and/or Ubiq, for this case, if it is even True.
The only possible blame can be to her doc & herself for following him/her. And if she lives in NYS, you can Blame Cuomo for Not letting pharmacies dispense HCQ for Covid19!Old crown heights
Thanks for taking the time to read my posts
“That said, to quote Zelenko, ‘If you’re floundering in the ocean and come upon a piece of driftwood, grab it and hang on. Don’t drown waiting for a rigorous double-blind study on the buoyancy of driftwood”Agreed. And I explicitly said that several times in the previous thread on the topic.
But I think people should be upfront Bout things selling it as a place when the evidence just isn’t there doesnt see right to me. I have no problem with a “what do you have to lose approach”
By1212
If it helps you sleep better I know of a pregnant 36 year old who sadly died in spite of hydroxychloroquine and zincI wrote ““How do you know they would have lived? That is simply an assumption.””
Ubi, you wrote “Because Dr Zelenkos study did not show an improvement in mortality, only in hospitalizations.”
But YOU cannot extrapolate for what did not actually yet happen in the study, it is outside the realms of the actual study!
Ubi you aslso wrote
“It is Hashem who decides not a tablet after all, ”-(this line you requted as it is my line)
Then you wrote
“So fartig. Forget hcq”No ubi, I wrote “yet we are told by Hashem we must consult a doctor. ”
So go to the doctor who will prescribe the correct medicine. It is well know that not every doctor can provide healing for every patient and that a patient will on occasion have to find a different doctor for the healing he/she requires if at all.
While I believe it works I do think the opposition is too closed minded to even consider the possibility. But with an open mind there definitely is enough proof that it might work and it should be a personal choice between a person and their physician , it should not be denied by a politician. That being said this weekend the GOV of Ohio reversed the position of his state banning pharmacies from giving out this medicine and they started allowing it. It’s a medicine that is cheap and has been around forever so we know it’s more or less safe. And for those who it might affect adversely they should consult with their doctors.
WHY DO YOU!!!! (I MEAN YOU TRUMP HATERS) STAND IN THEIR WAY??? Is it because you love these people so much that you’re trying to protect them from harm??“But YOU cannot extrapolate for what did not actually yet happen in the study”
Of course not.
The study did not show an improvement on mortality.
It did show an improvement in hospitalization (which would be great too)
The question asked was how can there be fewer hospitalizations but the same number if deaths?
I explained how this us possible. Not that that is what happened.
It is of vourse possible that there WERE deaths, bjt the study couldn’t show it“If it helps you sleep better I know of a pregnant 36 year old who sadly died in spite of hydroxychloroquine and zinc”
Thanks again. I got from the other thread that you never said people shouldn’t take HCQ and were explaining (repeatedly) why doctors weren’t compelled by Zelenko’s (at the time) unreleased study. When I tuned out the other thread the Zelenko study wasn’t out yet.
This is a case exactly what I’m looking to analyze. (I know it’s anecdotal.)
Was this woman (may she have a lichtige gan eden) fit as an athlete, averagely healthy, averagely unhealthy or (previously) sickly? How long after diagnosis did she start HCQ-Zinc+ treatment? Was she careful when she went out or cavalier?Where on the expected spectrum was her outcome? From probable to didn’t see that coming.
HCQ+zinc aside, I’m interested in your medical opinion about the extent the feelings people have about covid (especially for those under 80 and generally healthy and even unhealthy) are being engineered by the media. The number of deaths for averagely healthy people under age 80 in a population of 330 million don’t seem that high from media reports. They seem anecdotal picked from around the whole country. In Crown Heights the fatalities (among people whom I personally knew and was sorry to see die) most (of course not all) were older than the average age that Americans die even without covid. Other people got very sick, but came back home. If the media decided to highlight the gory details of every car crash (and publicly mock those who insisted on driving and then got into accidents) they could probably scare many away from getting on the road.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
I think you are incorrect. These health agencies are not directly under the President. For example, the CDC botched testing all by themselves. They had the same mess up with the Zika virus under the Obama administration.Dear OCH,
It is possible that Dr. Zelenko had good results with his patients because of his care, and not the treatment per se. Therefore, it is unable to be replicated in trials. In your post, you require specific details that would be difficult to replicate in a hospital setting. This alone would force the medical community at large to search for more effective alternatives.
Dear Not,
This medication has been repeatedly brought back into the public discussion by Trump and some of his supporters. Nobody (as far as I know) has advocated for it to be discontinued. Medication does not work along democratic lines. It’s effectiveness is not based on public outcry. Why has there been such an outcry that a medicine is /could be such ‘a game changer’?Dear By,
I do not have an answer if this treatment saves lives or not. Even if it does, there are medications that have been demonstrated to be effective in treating CoVid-19. Even if this one is more effective than those, (which seems to be unlikely) it would not be enough to halt the pandemic. Thousands of people are being infected daily around the globe. And a great many of them cannot be treated with this medication. [Those with blood deficiencies, a certain allergy, and alcholics. Additionally, the patient needs to be closely monitored for irregularities.] So, please stop with the “hundreds of thousands could have been saved” thinking.I wrote “But YOU cannot extrapolate for what did not actually yet happen in the study”
Ubi wrote “Of course not.”
But you Ubi said before “they would have lived”.
You do not know that!
This is a farce as stats do not prove a definitive result. Hashem has the definitive result.
I heard an interview from Yale Professor Dr. Harvey Risch but the problem is as the Hungarian proverb, one sparrow does not summer make, especially when considerable risk is involved.
HCQ+ zinc might only help in the beginning of the infection when he might get cured on his own. The question is if then, is it worthwhile to take on any risk?
n0mesorah, Dr. Fauci is not part of the CDC and so is not the Admiral and Dr. Birx.n0mesorah, the CDC is under HHS which is part of the executive branch.
Ready
“But you Ubi said before “they would have lived”.You do not know that!”
I do know that because that is the group c i outlined. Reread what I wrote
Are you saying nobody who was hospitalized with corona survived, unless they had received hcq+zn?Reb Eliezer
“The question is if then, is it worthwhile to take on any risk?”
The question is if it helps.
For patients that are already very sick, that we know it does not help, for the patients that are still at the early stages of the disease some are arguing that it does help.
As of yet, there is no conclusive evidence to this, some argue that desperate times call for desperate measures. Usually, we like to have clear evidence before a treatment protocol is widely accepted.
If this treatment turns out to actually be effective, the potential risk for most patients is minimal.
I’m sorry but any conversation CharlieHall is part of, cannot happen seriously. Charlie is an Uber leftist. That is a fact. he is so far left, if he takes one more step to the left he falls off the Earth.
fixed that for you
Old Crown heights
“Was this woman (may she have a lichtige gan eden) fit as an athlete, averagely healthy, averagely unhealthy or (previously) sickly?”
I like those descriptors, probably “averagely unhealthy” She had asthma but it was “intermittednt” menaing without any regular treatment she did not have regular exacerbations (though did have inhaler at home “in case” _ .
” How long after diagnosis did she start HCQ-Zinc+ treatment?”
At the time or prior to diagnossi. She was started in the Er when she presented with mild SOB being ppregnan tshe was nervous her OB sent her in as she was sattig in low 90’s
” Was she careful when she went out or cavalier?”
I’m not sure, though Im not sure how that would chaneg the course of disease. IF you get it you get it, of course its best not to get it, ie to not be cavalier. But if a person got it, im not sure that it matters if the y got it at a “corona party” or that one time she got to close to te uber eats delivery personWhere on the expected spectrum was her outcome? From probable to didn’t see that coming.”
didnt see that coming. She was young (34) young people werent supposed to die from corona. Though by the time i go called to see her she was quite sick
“HCQ+zinc aside, I’m interested in your medical opinion about the extent the feelings people have about covid (especially for those under 80 and generally healthy and even unhealthy) are being engineered by the media. …”
I’m not sure, I often wonder the same. There was a shift that took place. In March and earl April I was MORE afraid than Covid than the media let on. The media played up vent shortages but In the end there was enough vents , There was not enough staff, and other supplies dwindled. dialysis was a big problem .
Orginaly the “social distancing” was to prevent overwhelming the hospital system. In NYC in several hospitals I had privelges in the hospitals came close to breaking. In some ways they did.since then B”h , at least here in NY things got better. At this point I’m not so sure what the point of the social distancing is. Corona is never going away. In 100 years it will STILL be around. Are we distancing until there is a vaccine? What if they dont develop one? The media focuses a lot on the number of cases. I’m not so sure why that matters. (incidently those who want to downplay corona also get excited by the number of cases because that makes the fatality rate less) I’m not sure why number of cases maters. to me it seems deaths, even hospitlizations matter if 150 kids in a Georgia camp get it and are fine, what exatly i s the issue? I dont really get it
From the study-
“Group C: age ≤60 years, clinically symptomatic and with at least one of the following comorbidities: hypertension, hyperlipidemia, diabetes, obesity (body mass index ≥ 30 kg/m2 ), cardiovascular disease, heart failure, history of stroke, history of deep vein 7 thrombosis or pulmonary embolism, asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), other lung disease, kidney disease, liver disease, autoimmune disease, or history of cancer. Pregnant women, if any, were to be included in this group as well.”“It DID however show a reduction in Group C these people did not get hospitalized, again these are people who without HCQ would have lived anyway.”
How do you know they would have lived? That is simply an assumption.
At any point in time, the progression of the disease can turn left or right.
If they had not been given the triple therapy, we do not not not know if they would have lived.
GH -“We should be much more willing to rely on experts such as the Trumpokopf and his gang of “medical experts” he finds on Fox and Breitbart and most importantly, the world class medical experts here in the CR than our own government’s medical health experts.. ”
You & the rest of the Lefties are blinded by your Hatred of Trump. There are many Medical Professionals that believe in Zinc and HCQ for Covid19.
They so Don’t want it to work, because Trump will end up looking Good!
So they quote the Government Health Officials that it doesn’t work. But the Libs & the Left Media are Lying!
All the Government Health Officials said is – they’ll wait for randomized, placebo controlled study before they back it.
But the Libs are turning that around to control the Population.
Mind Games! And it will get much worse the More power the Libs & the Demoncrats get, especially in Elections.Ready
“It DID however show a reduction in Group C these people”
I was not referring to group c of the study. I was referring to group c as outlined in my response #1888466;
“For example lets say with out HCQ there are different groups
Group A – Have coronoa don’t even know it
Group B- Have mild symptoms, or not severe enough to warrant hospitalization
Group C – Get very sick go to hospital and do better
Group D – Get very sick go to the hospital and sadly die.”Are you saying that without hcq, there is no group c? Ie NoBODY would survive hospitalization?
You are not addressing the issue. Did she want to take the prescription? Was Dr Zelenko willing to prescribe it to her? Are the answers Yes/Yes or something else? I have traveled all over the world and I know a thing or two about medication outside local jurisdiction. Also can you please update us about the outcome? Why was a braindead person put on life support if the foetus was no longer alive or viable and given that (if I understand correctly the patient and her family are frum) consent for organ donation was unlikely? Thank you.
“Why was a braindead person put on life support if the foetus was no longer alive or viable”
I am not sure about the case your referring to. However, usually the say this works is that patients are placed on life support prior to them reaching an irreversible state.
health, would you enumerate the many besides Harvey Frisch of Yale and the woman doctor?
By1212
“Dr. Zelenkos study showed a reduction in death rate from 10% to 0.07 % in high risk patients.”
No it didn’t. See quote from study below.
“Every study ubiq quotes is fraudulent”
The only study I quoted in this thread. was Dr zelenkos’s. Here is the quote again ““The lower rate of all-cause- mortality in the treated group was not statistically significant” (this is a verbatim quote from his study)Now while the study is certainly flawed, I dont know that I’d call it fraudulent
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