Yehareig V'al Yaavor?

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  • #1093766

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam, we’re still waiting for information on this so-called psak you made up in the name of the CS that one can only sell chometz to a woman.

    #1093767

    Joseph
    Participant

    writersoul, when folks backup themselves with a “well-known rosh yeshiva” (Dov Linzer is a well known RY) or “a substantial posek” who must remain unnamed (which poskim want their psaks published without attribution?), especially when they are going against numerous written piskei din by the gedolei haposkim, and they can’t cite any written psak justifying their deviation from numerous written psaks to the contrary, that is the typical reasoning.

    #1093768

    newbee
    Member

    “Rav Heinemann only said that about it being permissible to see a doctor of the opposite gender (and him physically handling the patient) and it not being chiba. He did not apply it to any other situation such as handshaking.”

    Thats my point from the shach, if you are really saying Yehareig V’al Yaavor a doctor shaking a female patient’s hand or performing another examination would not be any different.

    I remember learning in shiur thats what rov moshe was saying.

    #1093769

    Joseph
    Participant

    You don’t have to klerr what Rav Moshe was saying. Rav Moshe is very clear in multiple teshuvos (EH I 5, OC I 113, EH IV 32.9) on this issue that a handshake with a woman is objectively derech chiba.

    #1093770

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe in OC I 113 also writes it is assur because an unmarried woman is a nidda and a married woman is an eishes ish (and also may be a nidda).

    #1093771

    Health
    Participant

    Newbee – “How would there be orthodox doctors if a handshake is yehareg vehal yavor for everyone?”

    What are you talking about? You don’t have to shake people’s hands!

    #1093772

    mobico
    Participant

    I personally brought a Shailah to two prominent Poskim regarding someone whose mother was adopted and then became Frum. He wanted to know if he had to avoid his non-Frum grandmother’s hug. R’ Moshe Shternbuch SHLIT”A Paskened that it was Yehareg v’Al Ya’avor. R’ Dovid Feinstein SHLIT”A Paskened (in the name of his father, I believe) that it was Mutar l’Chatchilah.

    #1093773

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    I named you two!

    R av Heinemann allowed it beshes hadchak and said his Rebbi R’ Aaron Kotler held the same.

    You decided this was limited to doctors. I relistened to the recording I have here it is verbatim:

    In a question answer forum:

    Questioner: “Is shaking a womans’ hand allowed in a business setting?”

    Rav Heineman “I will tell you what my Rebbe said “mdarf rich arose dreyen fun deim”

    Quetioner “But it isn’t assur?”

    Rav Heinemn “It is better not”

    questioner “But biless breira…?”

    Rav Heineman “Well you aren’t giving me a choice either”

    (laughter)

    #1093774

    newbee
    Member

    Joseph, are you saying that according to Rov Moshe, if a woman is drowning a Jewish man is chiuv to let her drown sooner than save her? If not, why is rescuing a a drowning woman less neheneh than a hand-shake?

    #1093775

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Saving a drowning woman is not derech chibah.

    #1093776

    Joseph
    Participant

    “I will tell you what my Rebbe said “mdarf zich arose dreyen fun deim”

    The translation of that is Rav Ahron said “one must get himself out of that”. Must.

    newbee: What if you have to physically pick a woman up and take her off the train tracks to save her life? Being permitted to do so demonstrates that other times you can pick a woman up if you feel it isn’t derech chiba?

    #1093777

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I never understood that. There is a lot more physical contact in saving a drowning person than a brief handshake. I just don’t get the claim.

    #1093778

    newbee
    Member

    why is rescuing a drowning woman less neheneh b’kiruv basar than a hand-shake? Also, how can you be a doctor and not shake women’s hands? I see all the time frum doctors shaking women’s hands.

    #1093779

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: At the 25-minute mark

    http://tinyurl.com/Rav-Schachter-Quotes-C-S

    #1093780

    Health
    Participant

    DY – “Saving a drowning woman is not derech chibah”

    I think the Gemorah calls it that he’s a Chosid Shoteh!

    #1093781

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, Newbee, the point of a handshake is to forge a personal connection, albeit sometimes in a professional setting and in a subtle way.

    The fact that some doctors shake hands at best proves that there is an opinion which allows it, but the discussion is whether that opinion is mainstream and should be followed, and if so, under what circumstances.

    Health, the question being discussed is not whether it’s muttar to save a drowning woman, it’s what an be extrapolated from that din.

    #1093782

    newbee
    Member

    “The fact that some doctors shake hands”

    But ALL doctors shake hands. You cant be a doctor and not shake your patients hand. What about a male physical therapist?

    “Being permitted to do so demonstrates…”

    No, my point is if its Yehareig V’al Yaavor which is based on neheneh b’kriuv basar, why is it permitted to do so? Also please answer from the shach about a doctor, how would this be mutar either. And also how is it possible for one to be a doctor (and many other professions) without shaking women’s hands.

    #1093783

    newbee
    Member

    DY, I almost always agree with you, but I have to quote sam on this one: “There is a lot more physical contact in saving a drowning person than a brief handshake. I just don’t get the claim.”

    #1093784

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You seem to have missed my point. It’s not about how much physical contact there is, it’s about the purpose and nature of the contact.

    #1093785

    mik5
    Participant

    benignuman – who wrote that most poskim allow shaking hands to avoid a so-called “loss of money”:

    Chazal say that on Rosh HaShanah, it is decreed how much money you will earn in the coming year. Do you really think that your parnassa is dependent on whether or not you shake hands with someone of the opposite gender? Anyone who imagines that his parnassa is dependent on such factors is a kofer.

    As far as a drowning woman – PUH-LEEZ. The halacha is that if a woman needs help (medical assistance, getting up after a fall, etc.), then it’s OK to touch her (to the extent necessary, and while being careful not to have inappropriate thoughts c”v).

    Shaking hands with a woman is not medical assistance.

    #1093786

    mik5
    Participant

    From Ben Olam Haba Web site:

    A male may not extend his hand to shake the hand of a female, even though this is commonly done in the non-Jewish world as a courteous way of greeting and not for purposes of love, pleasure or closeness.

    A female that fell or otherwise needs assistance getting up or needs medical assistance may be helped to her feet or given other medical assistance by a male [as this is not being done for purposes of closeness, love or pleasure].

    Obviously, even when assisting her, the physical contact should be kept to the bare minimum deemed necessary and he should be careful not have impure thoughts while touching her. (See Shach Yoreh Deah Siman 195:20)

    Of course, even when being treated by a female medical provider, he must be careful to not gaze unnecessarily at her.

    #1093787

    newbee
    Member

    “You seem to have missed my point. It’s not about how much physical contact there is, it’s about the purpose and nature of the contact.”

    And my point is the concept of Yehareig V’al Yaavor is based on a personal neheneh b’kiruv basar- not communal etiquette or societal norms. Remember, this is a life or death deoreisa, not derobanan.

    “PUH-LEEZ. The halacha is that if a woman needs help (medical assistance, getting up after a fall, etc.), then it’s OK to touch her, while being careful not to have inappropriate thoughts ”

    Why can one be careful not to have inappropriate thoughts while picking a woman up out of an ocean, but not a handshake?

    Actually, Yehareig V’al Yaavor would dictate that if you know you couldn’t control yourself after the initial neheneh b’kiruv basar, you would not be allowed to save her and must let her drown.

    #1093788

    goofus
    Participant

    85%+ of medical diagnoses are made via proper history taking. A physician needs to form a trusting relationship with a patient in order to obtain a comprehensive history. A patient will not divulge all details to a doctor they deem even potentially untrustworthy. I would argue that forging that rapport would require a handshake on initial visit.

    #1093789

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Actually, Yehareig V’al Yaavor would dictate that if you know you couldn’t control yourself after the initial neheneh b’kiruv basar, you would not be allowed to save her and must let her drown.

    That is against a clear psak in Igros Moshe (which I don’t have time right now to search for and cite). I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this issue.

    #1093790

    mik5
    Participant

    Even if he knows himself that if he helps her it may lead to impure thoughts, he must assist her if there is nobody else there to assist her. (Shach ibid.)

    #1093791

    mik5
    Participant

    Why can one be careful not to have inappropriate thoughts while picking a woman up out of an ocean, but not a handshake?

    Even if he knows with 100% certainty that shaking her hand will not lead him to have bad thoughts, it is still 100% assur to shake her hand, and if someone puts a gun to his head and tells him to shake her hand, he is still not allowed to do it (according to some opinions).

    #1093792

    mik5
    Participant

    When it comes to the three cardinal sins, Avodah Zarah (serving foreign gods), Gilui Arayos (acts of sexual immorality) and Shefichas Damim (murdering another human), we are required to choose death [Al Kidush Hashem] rather than transgress.

    [allow yourself to]

    Being that Gilui Arayos is one of the three and being that improper touching is an extension of Gilui Arayos, Chazal thus teach us that one should rather be killed than allow himself to transgress a sin of sexual immorality, even if only the prohibition of Negiah, touching [a prohibited] female [Derech Chibah, for the purposes of pleasure, love or to get close to her]

    #1093793

    Sam2
    Participant

    mik5: “Anyone who imagines that his parnassa is dependent on such factors is a kofer.”

    That is patently absurd. Do you show up for work? Do you even have a job? Do you ever get out of bed? It’s clear that we are expected to do what we are supposed to do to make a living. Don’t claim that actually doing a job is Kfirah.

    #1093794

    Sam2
    Participant

    mik5: “Even if he knows with 100% certainty that shaking her hand will not lead him to have bad thoughts, it is still 100% assur to shake her hand”

    That is actually not true. There is a B’feirush Gemara against that.

    #1093795

    newbee
    Member

    “Even if he knows with 100% certainty that shaking her hand will not lead him to have bad thoughts and if someone puts a gun to his head…he is still not allowed to do it (according to some opinions).”

    You contradict yourself: if all poskim say you cant shake her hand and all poskim say its really Yehareig V’al Yaavor, why is it now merely “according to some opinions” that he cant shake her hand when a gun is pointed to his head? It should be no different. So when a gun is pointed to his head its only some opinions, but when she will be extremely embarrassed or there will be chesron kiss its according to all opinions? You are quoting from websites, but with all due respect you are not making sense.

    DY: “That is against a clear psak in Igros Moshe”.

    Maybe clarifying why you would be allowed to save her will help you understand this issue as well.

    #1093796

    Health
    Participant

    Newbee -“But ALL doctors shake hands. You cant be a doctor and not shake your patients hand. What about a male physical therapist?”

    You simply don’t know what you’re talking about. If the pt. sticks out her hand, you simply say -“My religion doesn’t allow shaking people’s hands of the opposite gender.”

    #1093797

    mik5
    Participant

    Anyone who imagines that his sustenance depends on whether or not he shakes hands with some woman – that person is a kofer. No question about it. It is a mitzvah to work to support one’s family, etc. But your parnassa is determined by Hashem on Rosh HaShanah; it is not determined by whether or not you shake hands with an isha.

    “There is a B’feirush Gemara against that.” Source, please?

    #1093798

    newbee
    Member

    “mik5: “Even if he knows with 100% certainty that shaking her hand will not lead him to have bad thoughts, it is still 100% assur to shake her hand”

    That is actually not true. There is a B’feirush Gemara against that.”

    If derech chiba WITHOUT being neheneh b’kiruv basar was trully Yehareig V’al Yaavor, as what many people are claiming, then the gem would say one must sooner give his life up to shake her hand even when he is not being neheneh, which it does not. Thats my point.

    #1093799

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    Even if ou are right its not yehareg val yaavar according to him.

    In context its clear he means “better to” or “should” not “must”. As is clear from the follow up.

    #1093800

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is not only permitted to save her, it is an obligation.

    It is not derech chibah because the purpose of the physical contact is to save a life, and even if hirhurim with occur, it is still not derech chibah. Hirhurum and derech chibah are not the same thing.

    Look it up inside.

    #1093801

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I mentioned 2 names, Rav Yaakov and Rav Shimon Schwab. I have discussed the question personally with multiple “yeshivish” rabbonim. I am not saying their names because when someone asks a personal shaila, the response is meant for him alone, not for publication unless the rov says so. Rabbonim are often reluctant to publish heterim because they do not trust that the heter won’t be misunderstood/extended. This is why modern written sefarim are always more machmir than what you find when you ask a rov a question personally (and why english seforim are most machmir of all). There are thousands of frum, erlich baal baatim that will shake a woman’s hand in a business situation based on the advice of their rov. You are dreaming if you think that this is anything but a mainstream view.

    Mik5,

    Do you know that “hefsed mamon” and “hefsed merubah” are commonly used terms in halacha? There are many things that are allowed in cases of loss of money, more things that are allowed in cases of a signficant loss of money (hefsed merubah), and if the loss is more than a third of your assets, even bitul esaih d’oraisa is mutar. Frankly denying the concept of hefsed mamon is much closer to kefirah than using hefsed mamon as a basis for a heter.

    #1093802

    Sam2
    Participant

    mik5: Kesubos 17a

    #1093804

    newbee
    Member

    DY, as far as Yehareig V’al Yaavor is concerned hirhurim is more stringent than derech chiba- not less. We say since its not derech chiba, there wont be hirhurim, and it therefor mutar.

    “Even if ou are right its not yehareg val yaavar according to him.”

    Exactly, which would make the halacha change when kavod habriyos or chesron kiss is involved.

    Im not saying you can shake a woman’s hand. I am saying its not Yehareig V’al Yaavor unless you are neheneh bkiruv basar.

    #1093805

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You didn’t look it up, did you?

    #1093806

    newbee
    Member

    DY: Did you look it up in the rambam?

    #1093807

    newbee
    Member

    Ill quote sam from another thread who actually summed it up well:

    “Thus, since it’s a Lav which is part of the Issur Arayos, we Pasken that it’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. I said I won’t debate what’s Derech Chibah or not, because Derech Chibah is inherently very subjective.”

    we also see the mechaber says for a husband and wife certain things that are not derech chiba for starngers will be so for ones wife- regarding the eztba ketana mentioned in the gem. look it up inside.

    #1093808

    mik5
    Participant

    “she will be extremely embarrassed” – And if someone offers you treif, and by refusing to eat it you will embarrass them, etc., then it’s OK to eat treif, according to your logic. (?)

    The Chazon Ish zatzal held that shaking hands was an issur gammur and Yehareig V’al Yaavor. I cannot speak for “all poskim.” All I can say is that Rabbi Yitzchak Abadi heard directly from the mouth of the Chazon Ish zatzal that (with regard to shaking hands) you should DIE and not transgress. Other poskim are more lenient, in cases of EXTREME necessity. But one must do everything in his power to avoid being in a situation where he knows that he will have no choice but to shake a woman’s hand.

    One is required to forfeit up to 20% of his wealth to fulfill an obligation from the Torah.

    One is required to forfeit every last penny that he owns to avoid transgressing one prohibition of the Torah, once in his life – but he is not required to give up his life for this (except for three sins).

    “There are thousands of frum, erlich baal baatim that will shake a woman’s hand in a business situation based on the advice of their rov. You are dreaming if you think that this is anything but a mainstream view.”

    Nowadays you can get a Rav to say just about anything and give any sort of heter for any sort of nonsense. It doesn’t change the halacha. Halacha is not determined by taking a poll of what people “think” is OK, or by taking a poll of what people do (and determining, in the course of said poll, that “thousands” of “frum” people do this, and therefore it must be OK). Halacha is determined by the rulings of the gedolei Yisroel (Rav Moshe, the Chazon Ish, etc.).

    How many of these “frum, erlich baal baatim” talk during davening? Does that make it OK? How many of them daven at the speed of light? How many of them are mechallel Shabbos because they are completely ignorant in the laws of Shabbos?

    #1093809

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t recall you quoting a Rambam. Which one?

    Meanwhile, look up the Igros Moshe.

    I’m not sure what you want from quoting Sam, other than that yehareg v’al yaavor is not necessarily dependant on the actual chomer, but that’s against what you’re saying.

    #1093810

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Not getting mixed into the fray… (Oh do I have what to add), but all the twisted lumdus of the purported lamdanim notwithstanding, if one statement here causes another to lessen his/her awareness or shmira of this transgression, it will be held accountable in Shamayim. If ??? ?????? ?????? etc. from a true source, because of the reason given, how much more so on an open forum, where laymen, amateur lamdanim wannabes voice their opinion, theories, fantasies.

    #1093811

    mik5
    Participant

    benignuman – Do you believe that Hashem needs for any Jew to shake hands with someone of the opposite gender, in order to give that person parnassa, and if he doesn’t shake hands, Hashem won’t/ can’t give him parnassa?

    #1093812

    newbee
    Member

    Its frustrating doing these debates without being able to talk.

    Clarity is important. My point is simple: Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor for shaking a woman’s hand is subjective- not objective. Which is what sam said also. Thats why in some cases its mutar to shake a woman’s hand.

    You still did not answer my question though why someone would not have to give up his life when faced with shaking a woman’s hand if shaking a hand is objectively Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.

    You can copy and paste it or I will try to look it soon, cant right now.

    #1093813

    mik5
    Participant

    “Kesubos 17a”

    What about it?

    #1093814

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiquitin: According to the quote from Rav Ahron it is abundantly clear he means “must”. The rest of the recording is only Rav Heinemann’s opinion.

    benignuman: Unless you provide names of rabbonim, your definition of “yeshivish” vastly differs from the common definition. The only names you provided are those of unsourced and unwritten rulings that someone allegedly claims to have heard. And if, as you say, “when someone asks a personal shaila, the response is meant for him alone, not for publication unless the rov says so”, why then are you publishing these supposed shailas and alleged responses that you acknowledge were at most a one-off responsa that the rov didn’t want published or used generally by the public? As you say “Rabbonim are often reluctant to publish heterim because they do not trust that the heter won’t be misunderstood/extended”, why are you extending it where it is easily liable to be misunderstood as the rabbonim feared?

    The mainstream view and psak, as abundantly demonstrated by numerous written psakim by the gedolei haposkim across the spectrum (yeshivish/litvish, chasidish and sefardish) is that it is prohibited to shake a woman’s hand in a business setting or otherwise. There may be any number of private heteirim to do any sort of aveiros the Torah might prohibit based on unique circumstances. But those heteirim in no way, shape or form indicate that the underlying aveira is anything other than prohibited. No less that when someone receives a heter to be mechallel Shabbos does it mean that chillul Shabbos is permitted. Or “mainstream”.

    newbee: What if you have to physically pick a woman up and take her off the train tracks to save her life? Being permitted to do so demonstrates that other times you can pick a woman up if you feel it isn’t derech chiba? You’re arguing since you can carry her out of the pool so you should be able to carry her to a cot if she fell asleep on the kitchen floor if you believe it isn’t derech chiba for you.

    And all doctors don’t shake hands. What on earth are you talking about?

    Rav Moshe writes multiple times that shaking a woman’s hand is objectively derech chiba.

    #1093815

    benignuman
    Participant

    Newbee and DaasYochid,

    I submitted a post explaining that the two of you are arguing over something that is a machlokes haposkim but for some reason the moderators haven’t put it through.

    In short, Rav Moshe holds derech chiba is objective. Other poskim, such as Rabbi Yitzchak Isaac Weinberg, hold that it is subjective. It is question of how to understand the Rambam.

    #1093816

    benignuman
    Participant

    mik5,

    The Chazon Ish paskened as you wrote. Rav Moshe paskened as wrote (although Rav Moshe acknowledged that many erliche talmidei chachomim disagreed with him). If you hold, like Rav Moshe and the Chazon Ish, that shaking a woman’s hand is an issur d’oraisa then of course you are right.

    But if you hold that m’ikur hadin shaking a woman’s hand is not an issur d’oraisa and/or is mutar altogether, then hefsed mamon or hefsed merubah can be a basis for allowing it.

    You might ask “if it is mutar why do you need the hefsed altogether?” The answer is that notwithstanding the ikur hadin in America one should be machmir like Rav Moshe under normal circumstances. But if there is a situation of hefsed most morai horaah in America will be meikil.

    “Nowadays you can get a Rav to say just about anything and give any sort of heter for any sort of nonsense.”

    That is ridiculous. If you “heter-shop,” maybe. But I am not talking about finding the one Rav in town that will matir something. I am talking the most likely answer you will receive. I personally learned the gedarim of shaking hands from my rebbe long before it ever became nogeiah (pardon the pun) l’maaseh.

    Halacha, in our days without a Sanhedrin, is determined by the consensus of morei horaah. There are many piskei halacha from the Chazon Ish that are not followed by the vast majority of Talmidei Chachomim. There are many piskei halacha from Rav Moshe that are not followed by the vast majority of Talmidei Chachomim. And there are issues for which there is no widespread consensus, where there are multiple camps with different shittos. Ask your rav for your own personal shailos, but don’t impune the frumkeit of others when they are just following the psak they received from their rav or their rabbeim.

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