Yehareig V'al Yaavor?

Home Forums Bais Medrash Yehareig V'al Yaavor?

Viewing 30 posts - 101 through 130 (of 130 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1093817

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I was responding to a post by mik5 who was upset about seeing people shaking hands with women. My point is not to advise anyone to shake hands with women, everyone should ask their own shaila. My point was this: “Bottom line, don’t get upset when you see frum Jews shaking hands with women. Dan them l’kaf z’chus that they asked their Rav before doing so and know that yesh l’hem al mi lismichu.”

    Now, as it happens there is a machlokes haposkim about whether derech chiba is an objective standard or a subjective standard. Arguably it is a machlokes between the Mechaber and the Rama. And the Toras Hashlamim (Yoreh Deah 195:15) certainly seems to hold it’s subjective. The posek under whom I learned holds that derech chiba is subjective (as does Rabbi Yitzchak Weinberg in his sefer on yehoreg vaal yaavor) and therefore when it comes to shaking hands a person must make a split-second asessment. I am only not mentioning his name because it might identify me.

    #1093818

    newbee
    Member

    “You’re arguing since you can carry her out of the pool so you should be able to carry her to a cot if she fell asleep on the kitchen floor”

    Im arguing if its yehareg vehal yaavor objectively to shake a woman’s hand, you would have to sooner give up your life than shake her hand. Thats what it means.

    “It is question of how to understand the Rambam.”

    Thanks I always read the rambam that its subjective based on neheneh b’kiruv basar- thats what al tekarev is based on. But ill look into it. Anyway, that would explain the psak I was told.

    #1093819

    Sam2
    Participant

    mik5: That is the Ra’ayah Berurah from Shas that Derech Chibah is not objective.

    #1093820

    Benignuman, I am not denying that there is another shittah, just explaining the shittah which assers.

    #1093821

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    “You’re arguing since you can carry her out of the pool so you should be able to carry her to a cot if she fell asleep on the kitchen floor”

    I’ve actually done *exactly* that with my daughter when she was little. I had no idea that there was anyone who says that it’s assur and, in fact, should have given my life rather than do that.

    Live and learn. πŸ™

    The Wolf

    #1093822

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    1) must does not equal yeharg veal yaavor

    2) Rav Heineman pretty much explictly said that beshas hadchak. He also explictly said that he was following R’ Aaron’s view shaking a wonas hand was allowed.

    Even if R’ Aaron didnt hold that way Rav Heneman definitely does.

    So as to “Please cite any first-rate posek who disagrees with this strong position of the Chazon Ish, the Steipler and Rav Moshe amongst many others.””

    so we have (at least) 2 who disagree with the “Strong position” of the Gedolim you mentioned.

    Please note: you didnt ask for any posek who says lechatchila it is ok to run around shaking womans hand.

    #1093823

    newbee
    Member

    “Benignuman, I am not denying that there is another shittah, just explaining the shittah which assers.”

    Oh sorry, I thought you were on the side that said “this is the only valid shita”.

    #1093824

    I’m not sure why you thought that. I was answering how a handshake could be derech chibah and YV”Y when other forms of contact are not.

    #1093825

    newbee
    Member

    “DY: I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this issue.”

    My rov has for as long as I’ve known him said that you must make an assessment of yourself at the time of the hand-shake, because al pi the rambam its subjective. So when you said I have a fundamental misunderstanding, I assumed you held that my position was not correct according to any poskim.

    No biggy

    Now, according to this approach, if someone feels that their taiva will overtake them, since its subjective and we are dealing with a yehareg veal yaavor, one must let the woman drown sooner than save her. Chas ve shalom anyone would lack that amount of self-control that he would need to let a woman drown rather than save her- but if so he is not a chassid shoteh. By definition, thats what a yehareg veal yaavor when viewed on a subjective level.

    #1093826

    Again see, what R’ Moshe wrote on this exact case; I don’t think it only applies if you hold a handshake is YV”Y.

    #1093827

    Sam2
    Participant

    newbee: Is that true? Yeihareg means I have to be killed. How do we know I can let someone else die because of my Taavos?

    #1093828

    Sam, see the teshuvah I keep referring to. Rav Moshe says there’s no makom l’chalek. Does anyone argue?

    #1093829

    benignuman
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Yes (my rebbe and presumably newbee’s rav). However, it is only if he KNOWS that he will have taiva/pleasure from the rescue.

    Sam,

    Yes, at least according to the Bais Yosef. See Bais Yosef, Yoreh Deah 195, divrei hamaskil “V’kasav od b’Terumas Hadeshen” and Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 195:16-17.

    #1093830

    That’s not a chilluk between yoursef and others.

    #1093831

    benignuman
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    The case the Bais Yosef is dealing with is where the wife (who is a nidda) will die if her husband doesn’t give her medical care.

    edited

    #1093832

    Right, so we’re agreeing that there’s no chilluk between himself and another person, and disagreeing with Sam.

    #1093833

    oomis
    Participant

    Anyone whose taivah is so great that the horrifying emergency and trauma of saving a drowning woman would bring out a yetzer hara for him is clearly someone with much more serious problems than one can address here in the CR! Let him save the woman and then contemplate working on his yetzer.

    #1093834

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ben: But that might not be relevant. I always thought (and major Talmidei Chachamim agreed) that the point there is not about certain actions being inherent. It’s about everything between husband and wife being inherently Derech Chibah. That doesn’t shed any light on other actions between non-married people.

    #1093835

    Sam, if the sevara would be as you said, it wouldn’t make a difference.

    #1093836

    benignuman
    Participant

    Daas,

    Yes. I mixed up who was saying what.

    Sam,

    The Shulchan Aruch only considers it derech chiba for the man, because when it is the man who is sick (and his taiva is therefore limited) his wife can treat him if there is no one else available. Y”D 195:15.

    edited

    #1093837

    adocs
    Participant

    This question is only for those who follow the opinion of rabbonim who hold that shaking hands may be mutar in limited circumstances. For those who say it’s always assur it is irrelevant.

    It seems this entire discussion has focused on a Jewish man shaking the hand of a non-Jewish woman. Does the heter apply as well to a Jewish woman shaking the hand of a non-Jewish man?

    #1093838

    mik5
    Participant

    From Torah.org:

    Question: Is it ever permitted to shake hands with a woman? Is there a dispensation to do so if otherwise one would suffer a substantial loss or would embarrass the woman, possibly causing a chillul Hashem?

    There are, however, some situations where a handshake is offered as a matter of protocol, such as an introduction to a customer or an employer, to a doctor or to a distinguished politician. In these situations, the handshake is not a sign of affection, friendship or a personal relationship and would, theoretically, be permitted. Still, the poskim are in agreement that one must do whatever he can to avoid shaking hands under these circumstances as well. This is because the yetzer hara for arayos is overwhelming. An innocent handshake may lead to a casual embrace; a harmless introduction may blossom into a full-blown illicit relationship. It is extremely difficult to define what is and what is not derech chibah when it comes to a handshake, and it is, therefore, the consensus of the poskim to be stringent in this matter{6}.

    Under extenuating circumstances, e.g., one would lose his job were he not to shake hands with a female customer, or if, by refusing an extended hand, one would publicly humiliate a prominent personality, there are some poskim who find some room for leniency to return a handshake, if the hand is proffered in a manner which is clearly not affectionate. All poskim agree that one must do whatever he can to avoid being caught in such a situation.

    All of these halachos apply equally to men and women.

    #1093839

    mik5
    Participant

    adocs – It has nothing to do with whether the person is Jewish.

    #1093840

    mik5
    Participant

    In Mishneh Halachos (6:223) Rav Menashe Klein is asked about shaking hands with a woman who offers her hand and it would be embarrassing to her if rebuffed. He says that the questioner maintains that although Rav Moshe Feinstein prohibited it even under these circumstances and he assurs it despite the fact some Bnei Torah are lenient in order not to embarrass the woman, claiming they heard this “heter” from a Rosh Yeshiva.

    Rav Menashe Klein says that this is absolutely not a heter and should not be repeated even if it is true that a Rosh Yeshiva said it. Not embarrassing someone is not a sufficient reason to be oveir and “Abizrahu D’Giluy Arayos”; an ancillary issur to illicit relationships. With this nonsensical logic one can come to permit many issurim Chas V’Shalom.

    The people who are Meikil to shake a woman’s hand rely not on the above heter but rather on the Shach (YD 195:20) who brings the Rambam that says touching a woman is only assur if it is Derech Taava V’Chiba, in way that is based on attraction. Rav Menashe Klein however disagrees with this heter and says that firstly many poskim hold like the Bais Yosef who disagrees with the Shach. Secondly the case of the Shach is a Doctor taking the pulse of a woman. Since it is in the course of his professional duty the Shach is lenient. In this case says Rav Menashe Klein, it is possible that even the Shach would prohibit it since although the intention is not Derech Chiba, the act is a cordial introductory act between the two participants and can lead to a relationship especially in the case of this particular aveira which has such a powerful affect on people.

    He ends by saying that he who listens to this “Tavo Alav Bracha”!

    #1093841

    Joseph
    Participant

    mik5: Why not? There are greater issurim if she’s Jewish. (Nidda and eishes ish.)

    #1093842

    mik5
    Participant

    Joseph: What I meant that it is forbidden to shake hands with any woman, regardless of her Jewishness or lack thereof.

    #1093843

    mdd
    Member

    Plus, if the man is not an observant Jew, there is more room to be concerned that he means it derech chibah.

    #1093844

    Joseph
    Participant

    mdd: And if he’s a goy there is also more room to be concerned that he means it derech chibah. So for a frum woman, that only leaves a frum Jewish man. And no frum Jewish man would be shaking hands with a frum Jewish woman stranger.

    #1093845

    adocs
    Participant

    mik5 “What I meant that it is forbidden to shake hands with any woman, regardless of her Jewishness or lack thereof.”

    You obviously did not read my comment/question correctly. (Regarding who this is addressed to.)

    #1093846

    Chortkov
    Participant

    1. Somebody wondered if there is room to be lenient when declining a handshake causes embarrassment to the woman involved. I happen to think that there is no real embarrassment involved – there may be scorn, derision, perhaps anger, but very rarely true shame. But if there would be a situation of embarrassment – why does ????????? ?????? take precedence over ????????? ?????? ?????

    2. Regarding what you quoted from R’ Menashe Klien that it is assur even though it isn’t derech chiba – don’t the poskim who asser handshakes take on that it is considered derech chiba?

Viewing 30 posts - 101 through 130 (of 130 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.