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Disclaimer: I’m not saying in any way that the Shreklich Tamei Tzionim have any right to touch a body, especially with their track record.
Had a similar situation happened with a Sanhedrin in place (a child possibly shaken to death), would the Sanhedrin order an autopsy to determine if the day care worker is guilty? Would they presume guilt without an autopsy (similar to Rov einan Treifos)? If there was Hasrah (an assumption) and eidim, would the day care worker be Chayiv Misah?
Some purely bais medrash thinking when I read the story, and thanks for your help and discussion.
G@W
Nitpick: hasra’ah is warning. Assumption would be chazakah.
Autopsies are kneged halacha, so how could you have even a shaila if the Sanhedrin would order an autopsy?
The Gemara or Tosfos (don’t remember which) ask why we don’t do an autopsy on all murder victims to check if they’re a Treifah even if that could get the accused acquitted because it’s not worth Nibul HaMeis.
That seems to be comparable here. Maybe protecting society from a potential child murderer is more important? I don’t know. We would need to see the Noda Bihudah in-depth. I haven’t looked at it in a very long time.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14503&st=&pgnum=92
Its a long siman and I didnt reread it now. I remember him saying that to solve a murder/prevent future murder it is mutar. (though in the summary he doesnt mention this case but does allow in a case where the casue of death is not known and just to give the family ease)
Please someone correct me if I’m wrong
Shaken baby is nut murder per se but it is dangerously close.
Please note: I dont know the specifics in this case and like the op am just adding a source.
ALso please note that like almost every post Joseph has absolutely no clue what he was talking about. For example if there is a choleh lifoneinu who would benefit from an autopsy virtually ALL poskim allow one including the Nodah Byihuda, the Chazon Ish among others (the Binyan Tzion and R’ Moshe are some notable exceptions)
GAW
chas vesholom!
There is no such thing as Sanhedrin killing without eidim.
The Gemara (in chulin i think) that Sam alludes to is discussing doing an autopsy on a murder victim (where the cause of death is known there are eidim etc…) in an attempt to prevent the murderer from misah, since if the victim was a treifa then there is no misah for the murderer.
There is a Tosfos in Bava basra that Allows Autopsy in specif situations for finacical gain though I forgot the specifics of hand. (The Gemara discusses a fight over wheterh a seller who died was a gadol or KAtan making the sale valin or invalid respectibly nad R’ Akiva (?) offers two answers why autopsy isnt allowed 1) nivul hames and 2) it wouldnt be conclusive. Tossfos says both reason are neccesary since Nivul hames alone wouldnt allways prevent autopsy if there was a (financial) benefit. Though again I dont rmeber the specific application of Tosfos
In a din Tora two witnesses and warning would be required. However, the secular authorities may execute murderers even on circumstantial evidence See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/capital-punishment/page/3 . As for an autopsy, a Swiss team has invented a non-invasive “virtopsy” conducted with scanning and imaging technology. This should solve the halachic problems.
ubiq: You once again demonstrate an utter lack of comprehension and nuance. This topic is regarding a suspected murder. Thus comments made are on topic. The halacha is autopsies are assur. There are exceptions to laws but that doesn’t negate what the fundamental default halacha is. And the exceptions do not apply in a case such as this one.
And there was no hasra and eidim, in any event, in this case.
However, the secular authorities may execute murderers even on circumstantial evidence
But these are Jews, who have no right to act secular.
Joseph stop your silly games
You made a blanket stament:
“Autopsies are kneged halacha,”
This (like many of your posts) is simply false.
Other wise your response doesnt make sense:
OP:
“…would the Sanhedrin order an autopsy to determine if the day care worker is guilty?…”
Joseph:
“Autopsies [” regarding a suspected murder”] are kneged halacha, so how could you have even a shaila if the Sanhedrin would order an autopsy?”
This doesnt answer the question. IT is merley restating the OP’s question in stament form.
Is that really what you meant?
You clearly meant Autopsies in general are not allowed. Which of course is wrong.
GAW
“I don’t know why you say that. “
Because I’m not sure how well known this is Especially in ISrael. In the US there is a widespread campaign to spread knowledge. Shaking babies does work and stops the crying it was routinely done until a few decades ago, without being told not do it I’m not sure its self-evident.
That said given Eidim and hasraa not to shake a baby and the person shakes the baby and it dies Rch”l
Why would you need an autopsy at all?
According to reports the baby was shaken violently. This can result in shaken baby syndrome (SBS).
Can the Sanhedrin punish someone who committed a murder, but was not given a warning and seen by 2 witnesses
You clearly meant Autopsies in general are not allowed.
Exactly.
Which of course is wrong.
Incorrect. In general it is in fact not allowed. Then there are exceptions. But the exceptions don’t mean the general rule is non-existent.
Joseph
Too bad The Tzitz Eliezer had to spend several pages in several simanim not to mention many many others who adresss if/when autopsies are allowed, along with other Poskim including in cases similar to the op’s. Shouldev just asked you
Are Autopsies allowed to solve a murder?
Joseph: “Autopsies are kinegged halacha, so how could you even have a shaila”
(no to mentiont he fact that you are aslos wrong about THIS PARTICULAR case since the Tzitz Eleizer does seem to allow it.
At the very least though, it is a shaila.
Can we do this for everything?
Is the Kosher switch allowed?
Joseph : Turning on lights on Sahbbos is keneged halacha, whats the shaila
Can a pregnant woman undergo radiation if delaying it will risk her life but doing know will require abortion?
Joseph: Abortion is keneged halacha, whats the shaila
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