- This topic has 94 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
How come Yeshivish elementary schools and high schools in the United States of America are more willing to teach secular studies (like regents material)than are Chareidi elementary schools and high schools in Eretz Yisro’el?
In EY they hold by the shittos of Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Boruch Ber Liebowitz and others based on a Rema that a secular studies curriculum is assur min halacha (based on a Gemorah in the Yerushalmi).
We can speculate for the exact calculations that were made by the Torah leadership in the US two generations ago, but the decision was made to have high school studies.
Specifically, in Telshe, the entering ninth graders were told to strive for making A’s by the Rosh Yeshiva (as I have been told).
For any Yeshiva bochur to neglect his secular studies program in his own Yeshiva is to be Porek Ol (discarding responsibility).
It was aprtly due to laws in the US, whereas in EY, the Chazon Ish made sure that there were political agreements not allowing the government getting involved in chareidi chiniuch.
Peer Pressure.
And who says schools in America teach secular studies? Lakewood stops for many after sixth grade (So I have heard), and for everyone in high school, just like EY.
A Rebbe of mine related a story from when he was in high school.
There was a classmate who was a big massmid but had zero respect for secular studies. The Rosh Hayeshiva called him in to see what was going on.
The bochur explained that it was bitul zman since he had no use for a high school diploma anyway.
The Rosh Hayeshiva explained that that’s where he was wrong. “It’s bitul zman not to take secular studies seriously since you have to be in class anyway- you’re wasting time by not accomplishing anything.”
I really respect that Rebbe, Dr. Pepper. Wise words.
Whatever the reason for the secular studies in Yeshiva, elementary or high school, the fact remains that the yeshivos provide these classes and the boys are required to attend those classes. This decision was made by the gedolim of the previous generation and continues to be implemented by todays gedolim.
Similar to the story cited by Dr. Pepper, I know someone who was an “english” teacher in the Satmar Yeshiva (elementary school) in Williamsburg in the early to mid 70s. He told me that at the beginning of the school year and every so often during the school year, one of the menahlim of the yeshiva would come into the class and say the following speech to the boys (this is not verbatim, but a general idea of the message said to the boys). You are here in english class because the Rebbe shlita wants you to have these classes. It is fully expected that you behave with derech eretz to the teacher whether he is a yid or not, or whether he is a frum yid or frei and to participate in the class and do all assigned work.
I found a book in the library titled “Teacha” written by a non jew who was an english teacher in a Satmar elementary school in Williamsburg for a few years in the early 80s. In it the author also mentions the fact that the hanhala always stressed to the boys the importance of taking their secular classes seriously and acting respectfully to all teachers.
I’m curious what the subject of this topic means. “Yeshivish Secular Studies”? As opposed to non Yeshivish Secular Studies? Is Yeshivish a typo?
Dr pepper, i agree with that story, but there are serious shaylos regarding secular studies for boys, go through Reb Elchonon Wasserman’s tshuva, why did the yeshiva of velozin close down? because of secular studies, not even talking about English, language arts,… plane old MATH! Once a school already has it in it’s curriculum, and the child’s parents haven’t requested that he be exempt from those classes, if he’s not learning in beis medrish during those hours, yes its bitul zman. But were talking about a serious subject here that people tend to look away from.
Sof,
You cannot compare the days of the Volozhin yeshiva to today. The need for formal secular studies as a prerequisite for entering the workforce is *much different* than it was in that time and place.
The Wolf
SOF: I am not familiar with all the specifics of why volozhen Yeshiva closed down, or the teshuva of R’ elchanan. I will assume that if you are familiar with both, so were the gedolim in america of the previous generation who permitted the inclusion of secular studies in their yeshivos, despite volozhen and r’ elchanans teshuva. Todays roshei yeshiva and gedolim in america continue with this derech as well. In fact, in almost every major yeshiva boys are required to attend secular classes as yeshiva policy. I’m not telling you any big news here. All I’m trying to point out is that DESPITE the things you mentioned, they still sanctioned secular studies in their yeshivos.
I cant speak for all Yeshivos. The one I am very familiar with is forced to tolerate secular studies because they are required by state law.
This is a dangerous attitude “forced to tolerate”. Children raised in families with such an attitude will not be motivated.
Mod. Am aware what the law is. I’m not sure why I assumed it was self understood, but this is what I meant. The gedolim of previous generation were aware that the decision was made regarding the yeshiva in volozhin to close down as opposed to giving in to the government demand for secular studies. For whatever reason (I wont speculate why) they felt that in the US they should incorproate secular studies into the yeshiva day. That decision is still followed by most of todays roshei yeshiva and gedolim.
The Yeshivah would eliminate secular studies in a heartbeat if they could.
But they cant and unlike Volozhin, they made a decision to open/keep open the Yeshivos.
Sof Davar, there is no bitul z’man in learning the skills necessary to make it in this world. When the Beis Hamikdash is rebuilt and we have to bring trumos and maasros again, if for no other reason, math will be valuable to enable us to properly calculate what we owe. We are not on the madreiga of Bnei Yisroel in ancient times, so we really DO need to learn those skills. You want to know what is REALLY bitul z’man (AND money)? Taking time to purchase and light up a cigarette, as so many Beis Medrash boys do.
In Volozhin, by closing rather than caving to the government, the students could go to other Yeshivos (in nearby countries) without the secular studies. In America, due to the laws there might be no alternatives if all the Yeshivos closed.
just wondering- is the teshuva from Reb Elchonon an answer to the letter tora vodaas sent him and reb Boruch Ber (which Reb Boruch Ber ripped up)?
No, the shaila was sent to Reb Elchonon & Reb Boruch Ber by Rav Shimon Schwab.
According to those who see no secular studies as an ideal:
How did the members of Sanhedrin learn 70 languages?
How did Bais Din learn the math for calculating the calendar?
How was the knowledge needed to establish the nature of blemishes in animals for Korbanos learned?
How did the tribe of Yehudah learn the skills of war?
ONLY the Sanhedrin (etc.) learnt that as they required that knowledge. The hamon hoam did NOT study these secular subjects.
Of the 4 items above I listed 3 of them needed to be known much wider than just by the Sanhedrin. Even knowledge specifically needed by the Sanhedrin needed to be acquired before being appointed.
If every male Jew has an obligation to know “all of the Torah” that has to include the laws of animal Teraifos, and that knowledge requires knowing bovine anatomy.
The Chasam Sofer in Parshas Beshalach says certain secular knowledge is required for Torah study i.e. cow anatomy and arithmatic. So such study is proper, so you can properly learn the relevant Torah portions.
None of what you listed was required knowledge for the hamon hoam. For those that required the knolwledge, it is permissible.
Helpful, please define “hamon hoam”.
For one thing, each farmer had to be able to identify which animal was valid for bringing as a Korbon and had to be ready to defend the Jewish nation as needed. Recall Moshe’s and Devorah’s criticism of those not willing to fight.
Each farmer needed to know enough about the calendar and the land geography to make it to Jerusalem in time for the Pesach offering.
If he ever sold any grain to those who only understood another language, he had to understand the customer’s language.
One must admit that there is a huge difference between what the United States calls education and the “education” that was forced on the Volozin Yeshiva.
;
I’m with those who say that learning secular studies is important. Why should it be that Jewish boys are illiterate? In the word that we live in, we are interacting with other ppl and we have to be knowledgable. Furthermore, no one knows the future and s/o that planned on learning might have go to work-and how do you expect them to find a job if they can’t speak English correct (yes, im serious!)or do math…It really bothers me that some boys have no respect for secular studies. Im not saying it should be their main focus. Even if they learn it twice a week thats fine.
Jews attended university during the time of the rishonim. I’ve seen no rabbinic objection prior to the 19th century. The number of great rabbis with university education is quite long, including Rambam, Sforno, Rav Hirsch, Rav Hildesheimer, Rav Herzog, and Rav Soloveitchik. Each had extensive Torah education prior to embarking on university studies; each would be a great model to follow.
Dr. Hall:
I believe the issue was teaching it together with Torah (same place, religious teachers, etc), not in a University setting.
I could be mistaken.
Who said that the secular studies in Volozhin was just math? I believe it was Russian language and culture.
despite all that you have to say, i know of more than one choshuva poskim that say that it is wrong to have secular studies and taht there is no heter. From what i am aware of, most chassidishe yehsivos dont have secular studies, and don’t tell me later on they can’t make a parnasa. and for all those of you who said how did the sanhedrin know math to make caluculations… well we know that EVERYHTINg is in the Torah. “hafoch bah vhafoch bah dechula bah”, and yes there are some areas of Torah which you can say are “mathematical”
The Netziv was not opposed to some secular education (supposedly), but was worried that the Russians would impose unbearable restrictions, as they ended up doing before he was able to decide (such as no learning from 9-3).
The Chafetz Chaim said the Yeshiva closed for the reason PY stated.
(Of course none of this is first hand, but it can be searched).
BTW, Many years ago I saw Reb Elchonon’s tshuvah on secular studies, and I don’t think he assured it, provided 3 conditions were fulfilled.
1) No mixing of genders
2) No mixing with gentiles
3) No apikursis
I believe that most yeshivas today meet those requirements, and therefore it is not a problem.
However, it has been a long time since I saw it inside, so if anybody has a copy, please correct.
Reb Elchonon’s teshuva prohibits secular studies if any one of the following conditions are met:
1) It contains apikorsus
2) If you must sit with goyim (or otherwise befriend them)
Then he writes that if neither of the above apply, it is only permitted to learn it for the purposes of parnassa – although it is praiseworthy if he instead devotes himself to Torah study.
“You cannot compare the days of the Volozhin yeshiva to today. The need for formal secular studies as a prerequisite for entering the workforce is *much different* than it was in that time and place.”
Halacha doesnt change if its a diffrent time or place. If it was assur then then its assur now.
Halacha doesnt change if its a diffrent time or place. If it was assur then then its assur now.
Unless I’m wrong, Halacha clearly says that a persons going out to earn a parnassah is not bittul Torah. That being said, if a person will not be able to earn a parnassah without basic knowledge in a certain area, then how is the person supposed to go earn a parnassah? As good as it may seem, its not practical nor realistic for everyone to be a Rav/Rebbe. Where is the rest of the money supposed to come from? Without some people who went to college (of course assur) most Yeshivas would be closed withing a few weeks.
Without some people… most Yeshivas would be closed withing a few weeks.
*kapusta*
You write “some people” but we can say more precisely “secular Jews”.
Without the generosity of secular Jewry, most Yeshivos would have closed down long ago. The famed Roshei Yeshiva (including R’ Aharon Kotler) did not limit their fundraising to yeshiva alumni simply because we don’t have enough money within our own circles to support our institutions.
As one R”Y so eloquently put it, “I teach my students to become bnei Torah for whom Torah is their livelihood, or [for those who will join the business world] to become ehrliche yidden. Either way none of my students will get rich.”
Helpful said
“ONLY the Sanhedrin (etc.) learnt that as they required that knowledge. The hamon hoam did NOT study these secular subjects. “
and how do you know this>
He doesn’t have to prove that. The Sanhedrin knew 70 languages. That doesn’t mean the hamon hoam knew those languages. If someone wishes to posit that since the Sanhedrin knew 70 languages (or knew how to calculate the calendar, etc.) so did the hamon hoam know it as well, YOU have to show that. The Sanhedrin or Beis Din having that knowledge doesn’t demonstrate the hamon hoam did as well.
They had to acquire the required knowledge BEFORE they got to sit on the Sanhedrin.
In general, widespread hostility towards useful knowledge and work is a recent phenomenon.
If someone wishes to posit that since the Sanhedrin knew 70 languages (or knew how to calculate the calendar, etc.) so did the hamon hoam know it as well, YOU have to show that. The Sanhedrin or Beis Din having that knowledge doesn’t demonstrate the hamon hoam did as well.
I know that this is going to seem like apikursus to even suggest such a thing, but I would think that at least some of the hamon am must have had the knowledge. Else how did the Sanhedrin recruit new members?
The Wolf
“They had to acquire the required knowledge BEFORE they got to sit on the Sanhedrin.”
That still fails to demonstrate the hamon hoam knew 70 languages or how to calculate the calendar or the other stuff mentioned. It just shows someone who expected or wanted to join the Sanhedrin (or Bais Din) had to first understand the 70 languages (or how to calculate the calendar, etc.)
all the comments missed the boat!! limudei choil at best is very bideeved the problem is that people dont chap this! PEOPLE ALSO DONT CHAP THAT PARNOSA IS ONLY A PI’TUR FROM TORAH. there is actually a machlokes between rav baruch ber and the chofetz chaim if parnasa falls under oines that you cant learn or youre patur from torah BUT BOTH OF THEM ARE ONLY BIDEEVED!!! we live in a world that people think “making it big” is their tafkid in life people force their sons out of learning to go to the “real world” rachmana litzlan on this haskafa! just realize the iker is torah period thats it everything else is sides
holtzichfest, well said.
Unless I’m wrong, Halacha clearly says that a persons going out to earn a parnassah is not bittul Torah. “
Even more – the Torah specifically obligates a father to teach his son a trade. There are few if any trades today that do not require some secular education, even if only to know how to correctly calculate a bill.
Just as a correction to holtzichfest & Max well above:
Whomever says that bochrim go to work to “make it big” is living in the 60’s, when Kollel was really a struggle and society & parents had to be fought to remain in learning, even after high school.
The objective of almost all bochrim/marrieds who are in learning (note I don’t say boys) today who go to work is either (due) to:
1: Survive (they have been in Kollel for X years, and have Chovos, and just can’t do it anymore).
2: Pay tuition, and stop living off of other’s tzedaka, (after they realize they are not subject to the Kesef Mishna’s qualifications of “giving back”, or realizing they can’t live on tzedaka when they have and expect more then the givers).
I have found one bochur who wanted to “make it rich” out of 3-4 hundred. He grew up dirt poor with a single parent & didn’t want his children to grow up like that.
Otherwise it is much easier lifewise to stay in kollel.
And parents don’t usually force their children out (unless they have a family business). Telling them they wont see a dime, even from the Yerusha, is in most cases enough.
Al Shelosha D’Varim Haolam Omed: KESEF MAMMON GELT!
hotzichfest: according to all of the contemporary rishonim and achronim not is work not a bidieved but a lichatchila to go to work. at same time one is michuyuv to set aside time during both the day and at night to learn in order to fulfil the pasuk of v’higeisem… however, the rama and other commentaries state in hilchos talmud torah that for talmidei chachomim/ rabonim of the city can rely on the kupat tzedaka for support, although really it is better not to.
EDITED
Josh31
Conqueror of Jericho (and 30 other cities)
In general, widespread hostility towards useful knowledge and work is a recent phenomenon.
No it is not, not by any stretch. The suppression of education is a method of controlling the masses and is as old as education itself. The Dark Ages were exactly that – forbidding all forms of secular knowledge in order to make the populace entirely dependent on (and superstitious of) the Church. Other religions have also grown as a result of forbidding education (Islam is an obvious example).
squeak: I’m sure you are not comparing the Gedolim’s disdain of secular studies curriculum’s to the behavior of the church or mosque.
Max well:
squeak: I’m sure you are not comparing the Gedolim’s disdain of secular studies curriculum’s to the behavior of the church or mosque.
Who are we to question what the Gedolim decide are the best methods for Chinuch and additional Limud Torah in Klal Yisroel!
If that is their intent, so be it. We are not to question, but to follow.
EDITED
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.